“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown

[ladylynn]

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Everything you wanted to know about the Emergent Church Movement. Long video, but very well done. This is where Hyper-Grace comes from.

[video=youtube;OF-CHA4Z2FQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF-CHA4Z2FQ[/video]

Man., I listened to this and will listen to the rest but MAN that is so wrong. The 'emergent church' is another sweeping statement throwing everyone into a giant soup mix. I'd like to say first that of course the way the church is put out there has had to change. What with computers., cell phones., Ipods or whatever those other computer gadgets kids are carrying around for music.,and or cell phones, the opportunity to get the Gospel out there into the world has changed and should change. Kids have those things in their ears all the time. We can talk to our kids and loved ones in Iraq with the use of the amazing computer!!

Christians have an opportunity to do so much and not only that., to be able to study the scriptures and read Greek and Hebrew texts with interpretations like never before because of the internet. A layperson can learn so much about the life and times of Jesus when He walked the earth. About the Jews in the OT and the way they lived and what certain things meant. We have opportunity to hear men and women of God from all over the planet who God has gifted to preach and teach.

Of course things will change and must change. And just because the church is branching out to reach even more people for Jesus does not mean ALL Christians are selling out and only preaching what they think people want to hear. Many are getting the Word of God out there and people are being saved at a rate as never before. I have been so dismayed at how Christians are so against all the preachers and teachers that are on tv and the internet. We can't keep throwing everyone into a large soup and condemning all who may do things differently than we would.

I'm not a fan of the new music of today and actually prefer the old hymns but that just is not for everyone. Big churches are a part of our society and a reality we have to accept. Not all huge churches are of the devil. Even the name "mega church" has with it a negative connotation from many Christians. We have got to get away from assuming just because preachers are relating to a much larger congregation or scope of people that they are not totally sold out to Jesus and giving out the Word of God 100% without exception.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Boy.... I wish we could only learn to read more of the Bible than just a few selected and isolated pet verses.

I can not believe Jesus took my sin, and the father, who can not look on sin, did not turn his back on him.

You ignore the fact JESUS SCREAMED.

Why did Jesus SCREAM if the HS still comforted him, if the father still blessed him?

There is no other reason then that the father left him.

The penalty of sin is death. Not physical death, SPIRITUAL DEATH.

The payment for sin is the penalty of sin..

If jesus did not die spiritually, we are STILL IN OUR SIN.

 

[Grace777x70]

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[/B]

​Therefore as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, live in him, Colossians 2:6[/QUOte}

And where does Faith comes from?

I was using poetic license.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..I believe everyone is Christian..that is a new one on me...lol..actually I believe Mickey Mouse will be in heaven with us too...

Interesting point here. I have been told I can never live righteously. Listen to John

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:6

He is saying if you hold to never being able to live righteously, you have neither seen Jesus or known him.
This is serious stuff. Now the claim is it is legalists who are causing sin through failure, yet the solution is just more failure. The problem is this sounds more like an excuse for sin. If it was not an excuse, talking about victory over sin would be the call, but it is not.

Grace7x77 believes everyone is christian, just carnal failure or spiritual grace founded. But this is unfounded and unscriptural. So much does not make sense until you understand the compromises people have made.

Unfortunately these are not the compromises Jesus made or approves. The kingdom is not founded on man or his arguments but the love expressed through the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my growning (ps 22:1)


Jesus Christ uttered these words on the cross. Christ is god; He is also man. He quoted this scripture from his humanity addressing God the father. Christ knew perfectly well why the Father was forsaking him. This was the purpose for which Jesus had been born into the world. The Father was forsaking the humanity of Christ as part of Judging him for the sins of mankind. The sins of mankind were being imputed to Him, and he was taking the punishment due every human being who would ever live. So horrible was this judgment to His sinless humanity that he expressed his agony by repeating again ans again from tis psalm of David.. The Hebrew word for growning meant our Lord was screaming in the pain of devine judgment


You must realise just why Jesus Christ was screaming, and you must have some picture of what happened to our Lord prior to that time. Jesus had just endured 6 trials. During this time, men had lied about him (no one enjoys being maligned) and yet jesus kept quiet. He did not answer or fight back. When the court finished taking testimony, they could not draw an indictment because the false witnesses did not agree. Men began to step up and have a little fun at his expense. They took turns slugging, cursing and spitting on him. Jesus Christ was hit dozens and dozens of times. as the bible says, "he was buffeted" which is simply a greek word for "slugged" (matt 26: 27, mark 14: 65) Is 52" 14 tells us that he was so badly beaten that the features of his face were completely destroyed, and yet he stood up and took it all and lived.


In between all the punching, other men came up and said," so you are a prophet huh? then prophesy who hit you!" Boom! they slapped himn, they hit him (matt 26: 28) At one point during these triels, they stripped him to the waist, His hands tied above his head, and then he was scourged (literally "skinned with a whip"). The romans used a "mastix" a very brutal type of whip, to which they attached sharp bits of bone, metal and splinters, anything that would cut! Then the strongest man in the battalion would beat the victim.


Usually by this time any member of the human race would have been reduced to screaming incoherant hysterias, :likle a sheep that is silent before his shearers, so he did not open his mouth" (Is 53 7b cf acts 8: 32) He never cried out to anyone, he did not raise his voice in to scream in pain. Then after the beating was over, as was Roman custom, the y rubbed salt into what was left of the raw back to cautoerize the wond. They mocked him, they scourged him, they took him to the cross.


As He hung on the cross, it was excruciatingly painful. His bones pulled apart from the weight of his body, slowly, miserably. the torture was unbelievable! Yet not once did he cry out-


Not until midday, when the sun was overhead. Suddenly the hill was blotted out in darkness. Then, in that darkness, something happend that made Jesus scream. All of the punching, slapping, lying, maligning torture and pain had not caused him to cry out, yet now, something so terrible made him scream. In a moment of time, your sin, my sin and the past present and future sins of the whole world were poured out on him. It was then that in his greates agaony he screamed. God the father turned his back on him. Why, Because thou art holy (ps 22:3)


Holiness is a combination of righteousness and justice. In absolute righteousness God the father directed his perfect justice against Christ imputing all sin to him and judging him as the substitute for mankind. In that moment of time, "he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him (2 cor 2: 51)

 

[PeterJens]

The so called hyper-gracers..we love repentance!..we do it constantly!!!

No this is not repentance as we understand repentance, turning from sin and humbling your self, but changing your mind, which is odd as it has no definition and turning to Jesus. Unfortunately both these ideas are not scriptural. We are called to follow Jesus and obey, but not turn to Jesus. We are called to deny self and pick up our crosses, ie put in effort, but this again is too much for these people.

Obedience again is too much, even walking in righteousness. You could say almost all areas of faith are too much so probably these people are not christians at all, as they deny the core precepts of following the Lord.

Either following Jesus sets you free from sin or it does not. Either over 30+ years you have experienced this or probably your faith is flawed. The guys here sound like they were christians from their teens, so have a long history and if in this history basic christianity has not taken root, I doubt it ever will.

It is odd being dismissed by people who do not know their own faith and have abandoned it for an emotional high in failure.

 

[ladylynn]

Thanks, but no thanks for the video. I don't seek to be taught by any youtube videos, t.v. evangelists, or to be taught by any man for that matter. I have always sought understanding in the scriptures from the Master only, as Jesus said, and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. (Spirit of Truth)

I believe that is also why there are so many different false doctrines out there, because people do not seek understanding from the Lord alone by faith.

Again, if you want to have a conversation with different people and brothers and sisters in Christ., the idea of hearing them out is not something to fear as if you will somehow be hypnotized by some voodoo lie. God has given to the church as gifts - teachers preachers evangelists... Our world is not so big as it used to be now with the technology we have. To just flat out refuse to hear someone out but yet reserve for yourself the right to judge what they are saying is wrong on every level.

If we can't hear someone out., we should not judge what they believe or have said. We have no right to.

 

[Willie-T]

.............................................................Wow!

 

[Grace777x70]

Ya'll need to "repent" ....bunch of heretics!!...if you don't believe the muppets will make heaven too...

 

[Grace777x70]

Hey Willie..flip the switch buddy!!..New Covenant repentance.....coming to a church near you...

............................................Wow!

 

[thecreationtutor]

There's only one talking about the emergent church, well, two now counting you. And now apparently you want to link Rob Bell to it as well. It never ends.

Grace IS totally free, because it cannot be bought, and you couldn't afford it if it could be.

Grace is free - the fact that your alive means it's free - if it wasn't all sinners would be destroyed in the lake of fire at this instant. The fact we cannot earn anything or merit favor with God tells us that grace is free in a sense that because the goodness of God has appeared to all men - every good and perfect give is from God - who gives freely.

However that does not mean Grace did not Cost God anything - God has gone to amazing lengths to save humanity a chosen people for his possession

There is a difference between the grace of God and a heretic that thinks Horus and greek mythology is who Jesus Christ is.

 

[Grace777x70]

Let's look at it through what scripture has to say about repentance concerning preaching the gospel. I know we have been taught differently through our religious upbringing and beliefs handed down to us. Let's let God's word speak life to us.

Peter preached the gospel of the grace of Christ. to Cornelius ..no repentence used

Acts 10:43-44 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
They were not told to "repent" here. I love how the Holy Spirit "falls upon " them as soon s they hear about the forgiveness of sins proclaimed to them because of Christ!

Peter got in trouble with the jewish Christians when he went back...he says in Acts 11:17,18

Acts 11:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
[SUP]18 [/SUP] When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

What was there repentance?...they changed their mind toward God and had faith in Jesus.

Notice that it was God that granted them repentance. New Covenant repentance is not something we conjure up on our own nor is it a work we produce.

2 Tim 2:24-25 says that God may grant them repentance so that they may know the truth. God grants the repentance..not a work we do on our own.

Paul preached the gospel of grace here in the only recorded time in scripture.

Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Again ..no telling them to "repent"...but Paul did tell them .." urged them to continue in the grace of God"

Both of the examples we have of New Covenant preaching about the gospel of grace had NO words of telling people to repent.

These clearly show that "repentance " was not told to them

So, another point..does repentance mean to be sorrowful for your sin? Judas "repented "

Matthew 27:3-5 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

The word used here for "repent" is not the same word for normally used for repentance ( which is = change your mind in greek )..the word used here is completely different..it means to be sorrowful.

So, repentance does not mean "turn from sin '..it means change your mind and turn to God and believe in Jesus and hat He has done.

There is a change after we come to Christ and His life in us transforms us.

We do not say it's ok to sin...grace says the exact opposite...and maybe no matter how many times we say it..people will only "hear" what they want to believe.

We all need to repent every day as we hear the beauty of our Lord proclaimed!

Brethern ...I urge you to believe in the awesome greatness and splendor of our Lord's magnificent finished work on our behalf!

No this is not repentance as we understand repentance, turning from sin and humbling your self, but changing your mind, which is odd as it has no definition and turning to Jesus. Unfortunately both these ideas are not scriptural. We are called to follow Jesus and obey, but not turn to Jesus. We are called to deny self and pick up our crosses, ie put in effort, but this again is too much for these people.

Obedience again is too much, even walking in righteousness. You could say almost all areas of faith are too much so probably these people are not christians at all, as they deny the core precepts of following the Lord.

Either following Jesus sets you free from sin or it does not. Either over 30+ years you have experienced this or probably your faith is flawed. The guys here sound like they were christians from their teens, so have a long history and if in this history basic christianity has not taken root, I doubt it ever will.

It is odd being dismissed by people who do not know their own faith and have abandoned it for an emotional high in failure.

 

[FreeNChrist]

LOL..I believe everyone is Christian..that is a new one on me...lol..actually I believe Mickey Mouse will be in heaven with us too...

Yeah, I caught that one too. What, you didn't know you were a universalist?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I can see where someone could think that...grace-based believers however view it that all sins are forgiven .

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven you = perfect passive in greek

perfect tense = an action that originates in the past and it's effects are in the present continuously in a completed state

Passive voice = an action that is happening to you from an outside force..not you doing it

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption ( present continuous action ) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Notice here,,that it's according to His grace..


Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption ( present continuous action ) , the forgiveness of sins.

This verse shows that Jesus has made us clean through His blood..but we need "washings" .."bathed" = redemption"..and "washings " are done by His word. He washes us by giving us His word by the Holy Spirit in us to correct our behavior by the life of Christ in us.

John 13:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed ( perfect passive ) needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, "Ephesians 5:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

There are tons more..but I'm getting tired of typing..lol..I now it's not what we were taught in our religious upbringing..I rebelled when I heard it too..I actually called it a heresy too..

Ok, so here is the question: You've been a believer for a long time, and one day you commit adultery. According to God's grace do you:

A: Repent and Go to God and confess your sin and ask for forgiveness, or ....

B: Do you say to yourself, Jesus already paid the penalty for my sins, so I don't need to confess or repent and it is the same for any sin that I commit in my life? Before you answer, consider the following:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

Even though Jesus already paid the penalty for our sins, when we sin, we still need repent and go to God and confess it. The grace of God and the indwelling of the Spirit should lead us to get control of our sinful nature and to endeavor to sin as least as possible. For all sin is against God.

When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, one of the prayers was, "forgive us our sins, as we would also forgive those who would sin against us." That was an example of on-going prayer and not a one-time prayer.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Grace is free - the fact that your alive means it's free - if it wasn't all sinners would be destroyed in the lake of fire at this instant. The fact we cannot earn anything or merit favor with God tells us that grace is free in a sense that because the goodness of God has appeared to all men - every good and perfect give is from God - who gives freely.

However that does not mean Grace did not Cost God anything - God has gone to amazing lengths to save humanity a chosen people for his possession

There is a difference between the grace of God and a heretic that thinks Horus and greek mythology is who Jesus Christ is.

Does the grace of God cause something to happen in the Believer? Is that the issue? So a person prayed some prayer 15 years ago, but shows no fruit of salvation, what do we call that?

 

[Willie-T]

I can not believe Jesus took my sin, and the father, who can not look on sin, did not turn his back on him.

You ignore the fact JESUS SCREAMED.

Why did Jesus SCREAM if the HS still comforted him, if the father still blessed him?

There is no other reason then that the father left him.

The penalty of sin is death. Not physical death, SPIRITUAL DEATH.

The payment for sin is the penalty of sin..

If jesus did not die spiritually, we are STILL IN OUR SIN.

Go read what He was testifying and witnessing to the onlookers (in my post #176) These were all people who knew the rest of the Psalm by heart.

 

[Grace777x70]

I do now!!....how does one repent from that?..where's that switch?

Yeah, I caught that one too. What, you didn't know you were a universalist?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Grace is free - the fact that your alive means it's free - if it wasn't all sinners would be destroyed in the lake of fire at this instant. The fact we cannot earn anything or merit favor with God tells us that grace is free in a sense that because the goodness of God has appeared to all men - every good and perfect give is from God - who gives freely.

However that does not mean Grace did not Cost God anything - God has gone to amazing lengths to save humanity a chosen people for his possession

There is a difference between the grace of God and a heretic that thinks Horus and greek mythology is who Jesus Christ is.

No one has said or even insinuated that grace is not costly to God. We have been bought at a great price, and that by God, not by ourselves.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Does the grace of God cause something to happen in the Believer? Is that the issue? So a person prayed some prayer 15 years ago, but shows no fruit of salvation, what do we call that?

That's not the issue.