“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown

[james57]

Just more projections. First take that log out of your own eye.....

I want to thank you, and I mean Thi sincerely. Your silence when asked to give your opinion on that verse of scripture shows your lack of understanding of the message
I know that wont stop you continuing to suggest only a few of you do understand it
But that is only your words against the facts you have shown us

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter...just "repent" and you will be free in Christ. He has good things for you there!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation is dependent on us becoming sons of God and walking in it. But like all things in life, we can walk away.
I known people who have done exactly that. I could not have said if they were saved or not, but they would now reject such a term. I have met people who have gone to church all their lives and would be insulted to be called sinners, ever.

Judas walked with Jesus, yet he betrayed him. The church has been arguing as to his spiritual status since then.
Many heretics have come and gone, who started apparently in the faith, but now are somewhere else.

So from a human perspective there is no way of me saying what they were in the past other than they appeared to be saved and now are not.

I hate to be practical and real life, but this concept is not hard. If you stay faithful to Jesus he will stay faithful to you.
Even if you walk away, He still waits for the prodigal son to return. All the promises are true and everything works together for those who are called, but none of us know fully who they are.

Another way of thinking about this, is I am father to my children. They could go so bad I disown them, but mostly I will be faithful to them wherever they are, and will answer their call. The Lord appears no different, but their are limits.

God killed thousands of Israelities over their rebellions and sins. Judgement did fall, and it was just. God has not changed, as we walk at our own peril away from Him once we have tasted the truth of His love and forgiveness.

so your judging, although you said you would never judge?

A person who walks away and says they reject Christ is an antichrist, The apostle john makes it clear they were never saved, So there is no argument ever there. they did not lose salvation, they never had it.

Judas was never saved, Jesus called him the son of satan, he is said to be a sinner from the begining, a thief,, He robbed from the group from day one, He wa not there because he believed in Christ, he was there because he could have a good living.

as for staying faith full to jesus, if your doing it to stay saved, your not having faith in jesus but yourself.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

We are not saved because we remain faithful, We are saved because he is faithful even in times we lack faith.

if we walk away, We have never been saved, Thats is what the word teaches.

Preach eternal life, not conditional life, an dyou will be on the right path of trusting jesus.. As John said, I teach you these things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and continue to believe in him,

Lets be like John, Not like Judas and the legalistic jews who wanted to add conditions to the grace of God.

 

[PeterJens]

I do not get my bible doctrinal beliefs from Wikipedia. not form any english dictionary.

The basis of the argument about repentance was saying what the greek meant.
My point is you need to look at where repentance comes from in the law.

It is the response to guilt, finding out you have sinned. In the law it is by offering a sacrifice.
For those like in Nineveh it was sackcloth and ashes.

Now words in the christian church have been used for thousands of years and their intent is the same.

But the attempt here is to say we should not feel bad about sin, but acknowledge we are forgiven and walk on.
Now this is a simple lie.

The law was given and instruction of sacrifice for sin, which took effort and cost money was to underline recognition of sin is important to God and putting it right, crucial.

But this hyper grace approach is actually to ignore sin, not even mention it and just focus on forgiveness.
What is being missed is everyone is focusing on forgiveness as well, and confession. But most churches deny sin even exists and want to hide it when it does, and appear ok or perfect. Hyper grace claim sin is bringing condemnation so there must be nothing said about it, which is just brushing issues under the carpet.

After listening to the preachers, I have no desire to change my life or understand even a word they are expressing. It is like they are following a different God, and there is no brokeness or help to see my true self before the Lord and make progress.

Most people are desperate for deep seated problems to be resolved, yet what is being shared is nothing to do with resolution only further chaos.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Which of the following is the best definition of repentance:
1. Repentance means to turn from sin

2. Repentance means to change your mind

I would say they are inclusive.

You have to admit you are a sinner, and adit you have no hope before you can have faith in Christ.

which means you have to admit, you need saved so you can turn from your sin..

You can not claim you have repented and have faith in Christ, if you have not admitted you need to change your life..

 

[Grace777x70]

Nobody is saying that it is wrong to feel sorrow for a sin or way of life one has lived ( this is an emotion - which there is nothing wrong with that either ). true grace teaches us. ( this is repenting )


It is just not repentance in the New Covenant.

True repentance is turning to God ( not from sin - Jesus takes care of the sin thing ) and believing in Jesus Christ for everything that He has done for us with His finished work. ( that sin thing is done by Him )

Maybe things are getting mixed up in our thinking. To some with a religious upbringing ( which I had and believed they same way about repenting ) it means "turning from sin "....but as you see when you actually read the New Covenant..it is always "turning to" God,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The basis of the argument about repentance was saying what the greek meant.
My point is you need to look at where repentance comes from in the law.

So wikepedia is the law?

Your not helping yourself.

Adam and eve had to repent, as did Noah, and all his sons as did abraham, and there was no law. So repentance has nothing to do with the law.

 

[PeterJens]

so your judging, although you said you would never judge?

This is a complete packaged view without any foundation. Who gave you the authority to talk like this?

So every back slidden christian is now an anti-christ. I see your grace filled heart here. You are harder than Jesus.

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1

What you want to say is you know where things are when you do not. I call that arrogance and judgmentalism.
You have called me a pharisee because I do not agree with you.

Now to judge a fellow christian is to judge the law and to be guilty of sin. Yet you have no fear or sign of repentance.
Now if I follow the Lord, and nothing in my life would say otherwise, how can you stand in the Lord and hold your position?

I would worry if I knew what I was saying, or had got lost in my own bluster and self belief.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes..Definitely one has to admit they are a sinner when they come to Christ....and when they do sin after that..it's a constant thing..but we are forgiven!...we just talk to our Father and discuss everything with Him...

His life in us causes us to turn from sin after we have repented and turned to Him. But we are in reality constantly repenting as we discover more truths about the Lord.

What I like about the gospel is ..that it doesn't demand faith..It supplies faith when you hear it.

I would say they are inclusive.

You have to admit you are a sinner, and adit you have no hope before you can have faith in Christ.

which means you have to admit, you need saved so you can turn from your sin..

You can not claim you have repented and have faith in Christ, if you have not admitted you need to change your life..

 

[FreeNChrist]

Repentance is a change of mind that leads to a change of action. The change of mind is the recognition that only Christ can save us and only Christ can live the Christian life. The change of action is then allowing for the outworking of the life of Christ in and through us. That is one of the basic objectives of the book of Revelation, to call Christians in all churches in every age to repentance from the sin of religiosity, the substitution of our actions for God's action.

 

[Grace777x70]

Well said!..concise and very true. We can still feel sorrow for the horridness of trying to live our life outside of Christ. I know when I have seen how independent I have been from God when I have lived life my way instead of totally relying on Christ and His finished work....I am horrified and I cringe at the thought of it.

Self-performance/ self-reliance is a horrible religion.

Repentance is a change of mind that leads to a change of action. The change of mind is the recognition that only Christ can save us and only Christ can live the Christian life. The change of action is then allowing for the outworking of the life of Christ in and through us. That is one of the basic objectives of the book of Revelation, to call Christians in all churches in every age to repentance from the sin of religiosity, the substitution of our actions for God's action.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Well said!..concise and very true. We can still feel sorrow for the horridness of trying to live our life outside of Christ. I know when I have seen how independent I have been from God when I have lived life my way instead of totally relying on Christ and His finished work....I am horrified and I cringe at the thought of it.

Self-performance/ self-reliance is a horrible religion.

If we sin we should feel sorrow and we should be sorry, which can lead to repentance, but that is not repentance itself.

 

[james57]

And so it goes on, patting each other on the back while ignoring half the message. I'm outta here

 

[PeterJens]

So wikepedia is the law?

Your not helping yourself.

Adam and eve had to repent, as did Noah, and all his sons as did abraham, and there was no law. So repentance has nothing to do with the law.

I am beginning to understand your character. Truth or the argument is irrelevent, just the angle to put a proposition into. It implies strength, because it conveys that feeling, but never answers the question because that is the point.

This is a far place away from following Jesus.

Repent comes after the law was given. It is about sin and being convicted of it.

Adam and Eve repent? Noah repent? Please can you show me the verses where repentance is mentioned here or asked for.
You will find none. Repentance comes from the Law.

He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.
Job 36:10

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:6

This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it."
Isaiah 30:15

if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
Jeremiah 18:8

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a complete packaged view without any foundation. Who gave you the authority to talk like this?

Who gave you the authority to judge that when God says I give you eternal life, and you wil never perish, he is a liar?

Thats what you say when you say salvation can be lost.

So every back slidden christian is now an anti-christ. I see your grace filled heart here. You are harder than Jesus.

I never said this at all. Now your twisting my words,

I said a person who now denys christ is an antichrist.

If your going to lie to prove your point, there is no need in going further, I am sick of people lieing to make themselve look good.

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1

What you want to say is you know where things are when you do not. I call that arrogance and judgmentalism.
You have called me a pharisee because I do not agree with you.

No, I call you a pharisee because you claim Gods gospel of grace must be earned,,

Now to judge a fellow christian is to judge the law and to be guilty of sin. Yet you have no fear or sign of repentance.
Now if I follow the Lord, and nothing in my life would say otherwise, how can you stand in the Lord and hold your position?

I would worry if I knew what I was saying, or had got lost in my own bluster and self belief.

lets get the gospel right first.

Then we can talk about personal sin issues, But lets do that as God said, in private,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes..Definitely one has to admit they are a sinner when they come to Christ....and when they do sin after that..it's a constant thing..but we are forgiven!...we just talk to our Father and discuss everything with Him...

His life in us causes us to turn from sin after we have repented and turned to Him. But we are in reality constantly repenting as we discover more truths about the Lord.

What I like about the gospel is ..that it doesn't demand faith..It supplies faith when you hear it.

so just so we can get this out there, because I fear your one of the people some are talking about.

Do you believe a person can repent, Come to Christ in faith, be given eternal life.

then continue to live in sin as he lived before? That this is ok??

FreeNChrist, can you answer this also.

Bueause this is what licentious teaches,, (and I assume hypergrace) so lets get that out in the open.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is one where they did "repent"..and as you can see..it has nothing to do with sorrow here either..

Exodus 13:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:


Here is one asking for God to "repent" of the evil He was about to do...
Exodus 32:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

There are a few more but those should work...

I am beginning to understand your character. Truth or the argument is irrelevent, just the angle to put a proposition into. It implies strength, because it conveys that feeling, but never answers the question because that is the point.

This is a far place away from following Jesus.

Repent comes after the law was given. It is about sin and being convicted of it.

Adam and Eve repent? Noah repent? Please can you show me the verses where repentance is mentioned here or asked for.
You will find none. Repentance comes from the Law.

He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.
Job 36:10

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:6

This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it."
Isaiah 30:15

if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
Jeremiah 18:8

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we sin we should feel sorrow and we should be sorry, which can lead to repentance, but that is not repentance itself.

if we sin and feel nothing, then I would suggest we need to worry if we are even saved or not

and then if we do feel somethign, we need to determins if it is a true honest sorrow for failing our father once again, Or a legalistic sorrow, which is really not sorrow at all. but fear based (in reality, even if we deny it) trying to pass itself off as sorrow. Also known as Religion

 

[FreeNChrist]

Heres another definition from Ian Thomas that hits ya where the rubber meets the road....

"Repentance means stepping out of independence back into dependence, and the measure of your repentance will be the measure of your dependence. Every area of your life in which you have not learned to be truly dependent upon God is an area of your life in which you have not as yet repented."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am beginning to understand your character. Truth or the argument is irrelevent, just the angle to put a proposition into. It implies strength, because it conveys that feeling, but never answers the question because that is the point.

This is a far place away from following Jesus.

Repent comes after the law was given. It is about sin and being convicted of it.

Adam and Eve repent? Noah repent? Please can you show me the verses where repentance is mentioned here or asked for.
You will find none. Repentance comes from the Law.

He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.
Job 36:10

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:6

This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it."
Isaiah 30:15

if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
Jeremiah 18:8

dude, you used wikepedia to prove a point.

Your the one with issues, not me.

Wikepedia is not even a trusted source for secular things. or should not be, It may be a guide, but is has been proven to have flaws.

so if your going to continue with these attacks, and not get to the meat of the issue, there is no need to go further.