Are we sinners?

[PeterJens]

On the subject of death, our bodies are not dying because of sin, but because we are mortal and Adam never eat of the tree of life. Sin leads to spiritual death, a breaking of the relationship with God, who is the source of all life.

Death was in the world before the fall. Every cell in your body is created, lives and dies, it is part of life. If cells never die that is called cancer and kills us. This is why religious language and practical biological language cannot be easily mixed.

 

[Euphemia]

Paul said that nothing good dwells in the flesh. Last I looked the flesh is still a part of every human who is alive.

Paul said 'I am foremost of sinners', not 'I was the foremost sinner'.

Right, yet we have a responsibility as Spirit-led people, to place our flesh under the authority of Jesus. That we have a flesh (body and soul), doesn't negate the fact that God sees us as holy and pure, because our spirits are just that: holy and pure, because that is where He has come to dwell. You obviously, like too many people, do not appreciate Paul's literary use of the present tense for emphasis---something that is not done in today's languages, and especially in English. Hence the erroneous conclusions many come to who are basically self-taught or wrongly taught.

So, making statements to defend your impurity is just more hogwash to me and to God.

.

 

[oldthennew]

Where is it written that Christ is grace personified? The fullness of GOD's grace came through him, but I can't find where it is said that he is grace itself.

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hrftd,
you will never come to a full, fruitful understanding until you surrender-acknowledge All....

Jah, Elohim, Emanuel, etc, = Grace = your life.....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How about this scripture?..ages to come sound like a long time to me....that hyper-grace stuff is everywhere....just sayin'...

Ephesians 2:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

That possibly could be interpreted the way you are suggesting. It can also be interpreted to mean the riches to be shown us in the coming ages are through the grace now shown to us in Christ. The following verse says that GOD's grace is expressed to us as an oblation, who is Christ, that allows us to approach the throne. Will that be necessary when we are perfected? I'm not sure about that right now.

 

[Grace777x70]

We have told you Peter at the very least 20 times we do not believe in sinning all a person wants because of grace...but you always come back to that..it's the "acceptance grace" where people have trouble...we all agree what the fruit looks like as we have told you maybe 10 times...

A small note, when I suggested in the Lord we have a hope of walking literally in righteousness, people called me a pharisee.

Now if you hold we are no longer sinners, ie do not sin in the present tense, are washed and clean, then we can walk righteously.

So CEE is suggesting from the grace camp not licentousness but walking in a pleasing way to God, obeying the Lords commands and moral law, empowered by love working out in our hearts. To this I would say amen, though our history is as sinners, empowered by the Spirit we are righteous.

(This observation of positions shows you how diverse our positions actually are, even within similar theological teaching.)

 

[Cee]

David said his flesh cried out for God and that was before the NT.

As far as the Scripture you quoted (kinda)... Here's the full:

15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


Example for those who WOULD believe in Him, Not as an example who have believed in Him, big difference. You're using it as an example for those who are saved. And ignoring the ones that clearly say those who are saved are new creations.

Do you realize that he was the foremost sinner because persecuteD the church? Paul is referring to himself before Christ. Why? So they would understand that they could be saved. Exactly what he did in Romans 7.

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,

C.

Paul said that nothing good dwells in the flesh. Last I looked the flesh is still a part of every human who is alive.

Paul said 'I am foremost of sinners', not 'I was the foremost sinner'.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

=======================================================

hrftd,
you will never come to a full, fruitful understanding until you surrender-acknowledge All....

Jah, Elohim, Emanuel, etc, = Grace = your life.....

That's not very helpful. Anyone can say that. Cults say that all of the time. Scripture is what I use as my baseline.

 

[blue_ladybug]

On the subject of death, our bodies are not dying because of sin, but because we are mortal and Adam never eat of the tree of life. Sin leads to spiritual death, a breaking of the relationship with God, who is the source of all life.

Death was in the world before the fall. Every cell in your body is created, lives and dies, it is part of life. If cells never die that is called cancer and kills us. This is why religious language and practical biological language cannot be easily mixed.

How do you figure that death was in the world BEFORE A&E fell? Death didn't enter until AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit. Our bodies are mortal, yes, BUT we are born into a sinful world which shapes every facet of us, from thinking to doing things. We're susceptible to disease, all because of the original sin. If we were'nt we would live forever.

Oh and you're wrong about cancer killing us. I am living proof that it does NOT ALWAYS kill us.

 

[oldthennew]

we pray this will help you,

don't worry about what others think and do, worry what is required of you...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

David said his flesh cried out for God and that was before the NT.

As far as the Scripture you quoted (kinda)... Here's the full:

15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.


Example for those who WOULD believe in Him, Not as an example who have believed in Him, big difference. You're using it as an example for those who are saved. And ignoring the ones that clearly say those who are saved are new creations.

Do you realize that he was the foremost sinner because persecuteD the church? Paul is referring to himself before Christ. Why? So they would understand that they could be saved. Exactly what he did in Romans 7.

1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 3:8
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,

C.

If Paul was no longer a sinner, he would have said so. Instead, he said 'I am foremost'.

What an opportunity that would have been for him to reach the lost to have said, 'I was the foremost of sinners, but now look what GOD did to me'. Everyone would jump on board then. No one wants the cross, or to have admit that they're evil. That's what most people spend their entire lives assiduously avoiding.

 

[PeterJens]

Thank you for such a heartfelt reply My philosophy is that freedom doesn't need rules. Rules require control. If rules worked the OT would have worked far better than it did. Jesus transformed us so that His law would be written on our hearts and mind. Written by the Spirit Himself. I've lived in rules. I know it well. And it doesn't transform from the inside out. Sorry, but that's the truth. If you need rules you're hiding the dysfunction inside. By giving people freedom you allow them to embrace the love of God and show real love out of their heart and not out of requirement.

C.

Everything needs rules. You live in a world of physical rules or laws. They make interaction possible. Obeying rules without understanding is the problem, or not seeing the real context. A child is not allowed to turn on a gas fire because they will blow the house up. It is a rule you put in place for safety.

One thing the Lord has taught me, is we arrive at different places in His body, with imperfect understanding or ideas, but the arriving matters more than the understanding.

You miss-understand therefore my comment about rules. They are guides or demarcation of limits, where failure begins and success ends. To fall for the teaching rules are irrelevant is to fall for lawlessness. It is often because of an over emphasis where rules were thought to justify or define safety, rather than just a warning. The whole law given by God deals with if you find you are guilty of sin, repent, offer a sacrifice, problem dealt with.

No I know it is Jesus love that transforms us, within the context of appropriate responses, which are mapped out by the law.
People claim they have the law in their hearts and mind, but it appears their law is far from Gods law, which suggests this is not true for many. Jesus fullfilled the law but did not remove it.

 

[Cee]

We have told you Peter at the very least 20 times we do not believe in sinning all a person wants because of grace...but you always come back to that..it's the "acceptance grace" where people have trouble...we all agree what the fruit looks like as we have told you maybe 10 times...

Amen Grace!

My comment to this would be I actually do believe a person can sin all they want, but what happens is they no longer desire sin. That's the power of God that we can say wow I could sin, but I don't want to. That's the law written on our heart. I don't tell people they can't sin. I tell people that sin is stupid and leads to death and destruction. And I tell them that they are dead to sin, so how can they continue in it? Then I tell them about the goodness and kindness of God. And how if they knew better they would actually desire His will for their life. What's interesting is that He is making sons. Remember as little kids we did all kinds of stupid stuff, but as we grew up under our parents hand we stopped doing stupid stuff. Now, we can do all kinds of things, like eat as many poptarts as we want, run out into traffic, stay up as long as we want and watch scary movies, etc. All the stuff mom and dad said we couldn't do. But we have grown to the place that we no longer desire those things.

Right now I am sinning all I want. Lol.

Wow isn't He amazing! What a gloriously awesome Father we serve!

C.

 

[Magenta]

How do you figure that death was in the world BEFORE A&E fell? Death didn't enter until AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit. Our bodies are mortal, yes, BUT we are born into a sinful world which shapes every facet of us, from thinking to doing things. We're susceptible to disease, all because of the original sin. If we were'nt we would live forever.

I am curious. Where does this idea come from? It is not Scriptural. Scripture makes plain the fact that eternal life is found only in Jesus Christ, since He holds the keys to life and death, and the wages of sin is death.

 

[oldthennew]

oh my,

what a discerning post, yes, God's Law is often very far from our hearts!!!

 

[Euphemia]

Death was in the world before the fall. Every cell in your body is created, lives and dies, it is part of life. If cells never die that is called cancer and kills us. This is why religious language and practical biological language cannot be easily mixed.

There was no death before the fall of man.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Right, yet we have a responsibility as Spirit-led people, to place our flesh under the authority of Jesus. That we have a flesh (body and soul), doesn't negate the fact that God sees us as holy and pure, because our spirits are just that: holy and pure, because that is where He has come to dwell. You obviously, like too many people, do not appreciate Paul's literary use of the present tense for emphasis---something that is not done in today's languages, and especially in English. Hence the erroneous conclusions many come to who are basically self-taught or wrongly taught.

So, making statements to defend your impurity is just more hogwash to me and to God.

.

Everything bolded I fully agree with, to only add that our flesh is also holy. That doesn't mean that it is not sinful. Sacrifices for sin in the old covenant were most holy. That in a picture is grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh Oh......now you are in deep trouble!!!...incoming alert!!!!...

Amen Grace!

My comment to this would be I actually do believe a person can sin all they want, but what happens is they no longer desire sin. That's the power of God that we can say wow I could sin, but I don't want to. That's the law written on our heart. I don't tell people they can't sin. I tell people that sin is stupid and leads to death and destruction. And I tell them that they are dead to sin, so how can they continue in it? Then I tell them about the goodness and kindness of God. And how if they knew better they would actually desire His will for their life. What's interesting is that He is making sons. Remember as little kids we did all kinds of stupid stuff, but as we grew up under our parents hand we stopped doing stupid stuff. Now, we can do all kinds of things, like eat as many poptarts as we want, run out into traffic, stay up as long as we want and watch scary movies, etc. All the stuff mom and dad said we couldn't do. But we have grown to the place that we no longer desire those things.

Right now I am sinning all I want. Lol.

Wow isn't He amazing! What a gloriously awesome Father we serve!

C.

 

[Grace777x70]

We live by the law of life in Christ now!..this transcends all laws.

But herein lies the rub.....if there are no rules..what is to stop us from going crazy and sinning all we want?..when you preach the gospel to me..that is what I am hearing.....can we really trust the Holy Spirit in us???...can we really trust the life of Christ in us and the Father in us too?..are mad?..we need them rules to keep us in check.

( I know the answer..I'm just getting you ready for the..ahhh..stuff about to come. )

Amen Grace!

My comment to this would be I actually do believe a person can sin all they want, but what happens is they no longer desire sin. That's the power of God that we can say wow I could sin, but I don't want to. That's the law written on our heart. I don't tell people they can't sin. I tell people that sin is stupid and leads to death and destruction. And I tell them that they are dead to sin, so how can they continue in it? Then I tell them about the goodness and kindness of God. And how if they knew better they would actually desire His will for their life. What's interesting is that He is making sons. Remember as little kids we did all kinds of stupid stuff, but as we grew up under our parents hand we stopped doing stupid stuff. Now, we can do all kinds of things, like eat as many poptarts as we want, run out into traffic, stay up as long as we want and watch scary movies, etc. All the stuff mom and dad said we couldn't do. But we have grown to the place that we no longer desire those things.

Right now I am sinning all I want. Lol.

Wow isn't He amazing! What a gloriously awesome Father we serve!

C.

 

[Magenta]

My comment to this would be I actually do believe a person can sin all they want, but what happens is they no longer desire sin. That's the power of God that we can say wow I could sin, but I don't want to. That's the law written on our heart.

Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Not the desires of our fleshly heart, but new desires born of God's love

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes...we have a good, good Father and an awesome salvation in our loving Lord Jesus!!

Amen Grace!

My comment to this would be I actually do believe a person can sin all they want, but what happens is they no longer desire sin. That's the power of God that we can say wow I could sin, but I don't want to. That's the law written on our heart. I don't tell people they can't sin. I tell people that sin is stupid and leads to death and destruction. And I tell them that they are dead to sin, so how can they continue in it? Then I tell them about the goodness and kindness of God. And how if they knew better they would actually desire His will for their life. What's interesting is that He is making sons. Remember as little kids we did all kinds of stupid stuff, but as we grew up under our parents hand we stopped doing stupid stuff. Now, we can do all kinds of things, like eat as many poptarts as we want, run out into traffic, stay up as long as we want and watch scary movies, etc. All the stuff mom and dad said we couldn't do. But we have grown to the place that we no longer desire those things.

Right now I am sinning all I want. Lol.

Wow isn't He amazing! What a gloriously awesome Father we serve!

C.