The Pendulum Has Swung.

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#121
#121
kathryn said:
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our lord and saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred commands that were passed onto them
2 peter2:20&21
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Yep.

A person who finds his or herself in the body around a group of believers, Experiences the love of Christ. And have a temporary repreieve from the corruption of the world (thats why people love to go to church and hang around with christians, if they do not have major sin issues)

To fall back into the world. And then be there on judgment day, KNOWING they had the truth in their hands, and could have trusted it for salvation.

It will be worse. than the person who never experienced truth,
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#122
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#122
and if this verse is talking about a believer...( which I don't believe it is ) does not say that they will lose their salvation...

The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.

eternally-gratefull said:
Yep.

A person who finds his or herself in the body around a group of believers, Experiences the love of Christ. And have a temporary repreieve from the corruption of the world (thats why people love to go to church and hang around with christians, if they do not have major sin issues)

To fall back into the world. And then be there on judgment day, KNOWING they had the truth in their hands, and could have trusted it for salvation.

It will be worse. than the person who never experienced truth,
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crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#123
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#123
eternally-gratefull said:
Ugh!! Thats why I hate names, One of them, I would say fits me, The other sort of fits me..

1. I see a use for the law, up to salvation. it leads us to Christ.
2. I reject social morallity (in my social setting, Homosexuality now is widely accepted and is now the norm)

so what does that make me??

It seems I am a partial antimonian, A partial Calvanist (I hold to eternal security) partial Arminian (I hold to unlimited atonement) Partial Catholic (I hold to the trinity) Partial Baptist (Fundamental to the word of God as soul basis of doctrine) Partial licentious (I hold that sin can not separate us from God once we are saved) and partial legalist (I hold that sin is damaging to the soul and people. and thus we should turn from sin and find healing, and will hold people accountable to do that) I am sure i can find many more variations of things I am....

I guess I must be a mutt Christian. and not pure bread..:p!!
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It makes you eternally-grateful :cool:
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#126
#126
Willie-T said:
To be honest with you, I have yet to really see any posts about this supposed "Hyper-Grace" people hyperly harp about. All I have seen are posts of people complaining about something no one has even talked about. (They see only what they want to see, it seems, and claim that is what others are saying.)
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That is the main problem on here is people only seeing what they want, and reading into a person's post and coming away with something they never said.

Then they run with it and constantly hold it over the person instead of let it go, sit back and actually listen to what the person is saying.

Any small difference of opinion leads to the mistreatment, talking down, and false statements thrown around on others by some. Since I have been on here I have seen a number of good people leave this site because of others treatment toward them.

I have even seen a few new people come on here and start a thread asking questions to learn, and instead of nicely talking to the person I have seen some come in their thread and from post 1 start jumping on them and talking badly toward them.

I feel no love and respect from a handful on here, and I know this is a website, but it is suppose to be a Christian website thus should have nothing but love and respect shared on here.
 
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Wesil

Guest
#128
#128
Grace is receiving what you don't deserve(pardone from sin), grace is the divine enablement of God to humanity, grace is what enables us to say no to all forms of ungodliness, grace is when Christ loves us big enough to take us with all our dirt but he does'nt live us dirty no he gives us His garment of righteousness and takes away our filth! Grace is when the father sees his prodigal son return and does'nt wait for the son to come to him,but out runs him to meet him before he reaches half way,holds his hand walks back with him home! Grace doesn't say you find your way to do it right, Grace says I'll help you do it right! Grace is when God lives His throne and comes down to the level of humans in order to redeem them! Can anyone be aChristian except by Grace! Grace will never be too much for abeliever in Jesus Christ! May the Grace of our Lord Jesus, and The Love of God our Father, And The Fellowship of The Holy Spirit , be us all! Amen!
 
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KennethC

Guest
#131
#131
What we need to do is contend for the faith and stay firm in sound doctrine.

If what we are being taught in our churches, and by a pastor says:

1) That Christ's teachings and commands don't apply to us..........

2) We can continue to live the same sinful lives as before.........

3) There is no need to repent of sins...........

4) Believers are not chastised or convicted when we sin..........

5) There is no standard we as believers are to uphold, for liberty in Christ we have lets us do whatever we want......

If any of those points are taught, please find a different church or preacher to listen to as they are leading you astray from the truth. Which this then leads to the issue of Sound Doctrine; as I have seen some very bad teaching now days that says keeping in sound doctrine does not matter when it comes to salvation.

Apostle Paul clearly states that another Jesus and another gospel can and will be taught, and if a person is following a different gospel or a different Jesus (hince would be a different doctrine). Do you think these people are saved ???

The answer should be no because only through One can we be saved, and that is the Jesus Christ of God's word !!!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#132
#132
KennethC said:
What we need to do is contend for the faith and stay firm in sound doctrine.

If what we are being taught in our churches, and by a pastor says:

1) That Christ's teachings and commands don't apply to us..........

2) We can continue to live the same sinful lives as before.........

3) There is no need to repent of sins...........

4) Believers are not chastised or convicted when we sin..........

5) There is no standard we as believers are to uphold, for liberty in Christ we have lets us do whatever we want......

If any of those points are taught, please find a different church or preacher to listen to as they are leading you astray from the truth. Which this then leads to the issue of Sound Doctrine; as I have seen some very bad teaching now days that says keeping in sound doctrine does not matter when it comes to salvation.

Apostle Paul clearly states that another Jesus and another gospel can and will be taught, and if a person is following a different gospel or a different Jesus (hince would be a different doctrine). Do you think these people are saved ???

The answer should be no because only through One can we be saved, and that is the Jesus Christ of God's word !!!
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contending for the faith does not meen you blind yourself to the thinking you are right no matter what

It means you are open to the fact you may be wrong, and you will fight for truth, even if it is not your truth.

I had to learn this the hard way.
 
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Wesil

Guest
#133
#133
Hi Kenneth, It takes God for one to be saved, It takes God for one to be transformed from rebelious lifestyle towards God to aperson who longs and hungers after God! Why are we saved? Is it just that we may go to heaven? We're saved because God's Love drowned our sinfull hearts to an extend that we could no longer resist,rebel or reject God! We're saved because God came closer enough that we were able to see His beauty to an extend of rejecting the ugliness of our state and crying out loud that we needed so much to have that beuty that He (God)has! We're saved because we want to be at peace with God! It's these sweetness of God that causes us to shun evil,diobedience and rebellion towards God! It's not the fear of God's Judgement, Hell fire,punishment,or getting acces to good life,alife of answered prayers, that causes us to be saved!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#134
#134
Wesil said:
Hi Kenneth, It takes God for one to be saved, It takes God for one to be transformed from rebelious lifestyle towards God to aperson who longs and hungers after God! Why are we saved? Is it just that we may go to heaven? We're saved because God's Love drowned our sinfull hearts to an extend that we could no longer resist,rebel or reject God! We're saved because God came closer enough that we were able to see His beauty to an extend of rejecting the ugliness of our state and crying out loud that we needed so much to have that beuty that He (God)has! We're saved because we want to be at peace with God! It's these sweetness of God that causes us to shun evil,diobedience and rebellion towards God! It's not the fear of God's Judgement, Hell fire,punishment,or getting acces to good life,alife of answered prayers, that causes us to be saved!
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Without faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and following Him a person can not be saved.

Yes God works in us by His Holy Spirit when we are born again, but to say a person can not rebel is not quite true as the Word of God is full of examples of those who fall away from the truth, and that we still have the choice to choose who to follow. Either His righteousness that leads to eternal life, or our own self which will lead to eternal death.

We are saved by grace through faith, not grace alone !!!
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#135
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#135
KennethC said:
Without faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and following Him a person can not be saved.

Yes God works in us by His Holy Spirit when we are born again, but to say a person can not rebel is not quite true as the Word of God is full of examples of those who fall away from the truth, and that we still have the choice to choose who to follow. Either His righteousness that leads to eternal life, or our own self which will lead to eternal death.

We are saved by grace through faith, not grace alone !!!
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How perfect must the 'following' be before one is saved???
...or how 'imperfect' can the 'following' be and still be saved???
 
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oldthennew

Guest
#136
#136
our 'imperfections' will always tells us what we have/must improve on...
it ain't no secret, our weakness's scream at us, and enlighten us to 'wake-up'...
if we claim 'delusion' then we are liars, living in denial.....
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#137
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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#137
KennethC wrote: "Without faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and following Him a person can not be saved."
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oldthennew said:
our 'imperfections' will always tells us what we have/must improve on...
it ain't no secret, our weakness's scream at us, and enlighten us to 'wake-up'...
if we claim 'delusion' then we are liars, living in denial.....
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yes, but our 'perfections' or 'imperfections' of following Him are never a basis for our salvation.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#139
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#139
Grandpa said:
Definition of antinomian. 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. 2 : one who rejects a socially established morality.


Is that our only 2 choices? Antinomian or legalist? Doesn't Paul say that those who are of the works of the law are under the curse?

So we are either antinomian or legalist... I suppose I am antinomian then. Unless I am mis-understanding what antinomian is...
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This is an example of a group who calls obedience to our Master Jesus Christ & the law of Christ "old testament legalists". Notice how immediately this individual uses the terminology "works of the law" & quotes NT scripture that teaches against the OT law.

There's just one problem..... we're not keeping OT law. Just because someone says it is doesn't make it so.

Herein lies the irony..... said people accuse others of keeping OT law & label them as legalists. THEN, complain because they're labeled as a believer of hypergrace, greasy grace, or antinomian, when that's exactly what they believe, for these three all mean basically the same thing.

Jesus said we reap what we sow..... Therefore, he that labels..... gets labeled.

BTW, just because someone labels obedience to their Master & Lord as extremists doesn't make it so..... unless that person is striving to be extremely faithful. That's what I'd like to be. :)

If a person calls Jesus LORD, yet doesn't do the things his LORD says, that person is only blowing hot air.

Pendulum swinging? Some, yes..... but I would rather call what I've been seeing since 2009 extreme stereotyping. Anyone who HINTS about obedience to Christ is conveniently put into the legalist box, & attacked, ridiculed & mocked for trying to say otherwise.

In the end, inexperienced readers think all they're seeing is extremist morons who call themselves the church arguing childishly because the innocent are purposely intimidated & put on the defensive, making their witness & their doctrine of none effect.

Dear reader, this isn't chaos as you've been led to think..... rather, it's a well-oiled machine designed for destruction of the truth and confuse new christians/seekers. It's a set-up.
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#140
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#140
Stephen63 said:
This is an example of a group who calls obedience to our Master Jesus Christ & the law of Christ "old testament legalists". Notice how immediately this individual uses the terminology "works of the law" & quotes NT scripture that teaches against the OT law.

There's just one problem..... we're not keeping OT law. Just because someone says it is doesn't make it so.

Herein lies the irony..... said people accuse others of keeping OT law & label them as legalists. THEN, complain because they're labeled as a believer of hypergrace, greasy grace, or antinomian, when that's exactly what they believe, for these three all mean basically the same thing.

Jesus said we reap what we sow..... Therefore, he that labels..... gets labeled.

BTW, just because someone labels obedience to their Master & Lord as extremists doesn't make it so..... unless that person is striving to be extremely faithful. That's what I'd like to be. :)

If a person calls Jesus LORD, yet doesn't do the things his LORD says, that person is only blowing hot air.

Pendulum swinging? Some, yes..... but I would rather call what I've been seeing since 2009 extreme stereotyping. Anyone who HINTS about obedience to Christ is conveniently put into the legalist box, & attacked, ridiculed & mocked for trying to say otherwise.

In the end, inexperienced readers think all they're seeing is extremist morons who call themselves the church arguing childishly because the innocent are purposely intimidated & put on the defensive, making their witness & their doctrine of none effect.

Dear reader, this isn't chaos as you've been led to think..... rather, it's a well-oiled machine designed for destruction of the truth and confuse new christians/seekers. It's a set-up.
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So then Paul is wrong.

According to you.

Those who work at the law are not under the curse.

They are actually the ones who are being obedient to Christ.


I suppose telling new seekers that the NT is wrong would be more confusing than telling them that the NT is correct. Unless you really just have no understanding of what Christianity is...
 
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