ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

[Grandpa]

Your reasoning is faulty.

No one can earn or deserve heaven. It is a free gift. The christian has a righteousness of faith in what Christ did for them at Calvary.
But then they are called to follow after the holy spirit, they have an obligation to do so, then they are not under law but under grace.

But I find it hard to accept if a man joined your church, and as a christian murdered, was a serial adulterer, a constant thief, and repeatedly took the Lords name in vain, you would view it that as no one is perfect in the flesh, and we have a righteousness apart from the law that man is as saved as anyone else.
It may be good head theology for some, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. And i don't know of any minister who would take any other view

My reasoning is faulty?

I just asked questions.

I haven't even discussed my reasoning yet.

Our walk with the Lord Jesus Christ has to do with our conscience and our ability to come to Him for forgiveness.

I am just wondering how you can judge another christians walk if you yourself struggle with your own perfect walk before the Lord.

In other words, who are you really condemning here?

 

[KennethC]

Being born again?




This new nature is given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Can we mimic this nature by our deeds?

Yes we can which is why Paul clearly rebuked and taught on constantly not continuing to walk as we previously walked.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit will help and lead us to not give into the ways of the flesh. We have all the tools we need to know how to walk in the faith, His words and the Holy Spirit.

Yet the whole teaching as though we don't change on the outside is flawed, as Paul said both the spirit (inner self) and the flesh (outer self) are to be cleaned to receive the promises.

 

[Utah]

I'm still waiting for you to answer your inconsistency.
I responded to your point, I think it is your turn to now respond to your inconsistencies

I answered it in post 252. And for the record, God's Word is not inconsistent; I stand with God.

Still waiting . . .

 

[kathryn]

G

My reasoning is faulty?

I just asked questions.

I haven't even discussed my reasoning yet.

Our walk with the Lord Jesus Christ has to do with our conscience and our ability to come to Him for forgiveness.

I am just wondering how you can judge another christians walk if you yourself struggle with your own perfect walk before the Lord.

In other words, who are you really condemning here?

I am far from perfect, I freely admit that. However, does that mean a person can become a christian and as a christian be a serial murderer, rapist, thief, drunk, adulterer as no one is perfect in the flesh?
That is my question to you, what is your opinion on that?

 

[KennethC]

EXACTLY!!!! That's why the stupid hyperbole example is both a red herring and straw man argument. Understand where I'm coming from? Christians don't go around living like Genghis Kahn.

Well I just gave you a few examples who claim to be Christians from past to recent now day history who pretty much did and do go around in the name of Christ murdering and mistreating others.

Yet you still call it hyperbole and now a straw man, when in real life it does happen.....

I have even been apart of a OSAS church growing up and visited a couple in the past few years that did teach we can live and do whatever we want. And it wasn't a misunderstanding on my part for they stated it exactly that way !!!

I am surprised some of you who are around the same age as me or older have never heard of the "Wake Up" call of the early 90's.

This was a major move in the Church body all over the U.S. where a number of denominations gathered together to fight off this dangerous doctrine leading people to ruin.

 

[Utah]

Do you think everybody standing around the cross received eternal life ???

Okay, I get it, you're shortsighted, and I don't say this as an insult, but for clarification. Jesus' words on the Cross are not limited to only those people who witnessed His crucifixion, but rather, His words extend to all people who have faith in Him throughout space and time. He asks God to forgive us, for we know not what we do.

 

[Utah]

Well I just gave you a few examples who claim to be Christians from past to recent now day history who pretty much did and do go around in the name of Christ murdering and mistreating others.

I missed that? Which post?

 

[Grace777x70]

Ahhh..I believe it says..SINCE we have these promises...let us cleanse ourselves from the flesh and spirit...It amazes me how people take scripture and twist it...

It does not say..in order "to receive the promises"

2 Corinthians 7:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Notice the "Therefore"...the previous verses in 2 Corth 6 talk about God being in us so....and that He is our Father...we should walk in Him as we now new creations..

Brethren....whenever anyone says something about a scripture..i recommend to go look in up in CONTEXT... if we read a scripture without context...that "text" will "con" you...

 

[gb9]

Well I just gave you a few examples who claim to be Christians from past to recent now day history who pretty much did and do go around in the name of Christ murdering and mistreating others.

Yet you still call it hyperbole and now a straw man, when in real life it does happen.....

I have even been apart of a OSAS church growing up and visited a couple in the past few years that did teach we can live and do whatever we want. And it wasn't a misunderstanding on my part for they stated it exactly that way !!!

I am surprised some of you who are around the same age as me or older have never heard of the "Wake Up" call of the early 90's.

This was a major move in the Church body all over the U.S. where a number of denominations gathered together to fight off this dangerous doctrine leading people to ruin.

no, what is leading people to ruin is folks like you who make claims that grace must be earned, deny CLEAR BIBLICAL TRUTH that we are saved by grace, tell lies about others are saying, and get ticked off and condem as unsaved anyone who disagrees with their false teaching. because anyone who denies grace-based salvation is a LIAR.

 

[Utah]

G

I am far from perfect, I freely admit that. However, does that mean a person can become a christian and as a christian be a serial murderer, rapist, thief, drunk, adulterer as no one is perfect in the flesh?
That is my question to you, what is your opinion on that?

God demands we forgive others. If God demands it of us, its pretty safe to say He demands it of Himself. Embrace the Grace and Rejoice!

 

[Grace777x70]

So..all of this stems from OSAS...guys that is a useless discussion. It just goes around and around..it's like the "speaking in tongues " issue. Go look at any thread and both sides have "scripture" that they interpret either for or against it.

The principal is the same here.


The principal is the same here.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes we can which is why Paul clearly rebuked and taught on constantly not continuing to walk as we previously walked.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit will help and lead us to not give into the ways of the flesh. We have all the tools we need to know how to walk in the faith, His words and the Holy Spirit.

Yet the whole teaching as though we don't change on the outside is flawed, as Paul said both the spirit (inner self) and the flesh (outer self) are to be cleaned to receive the promises.

So we don't really need to be born again, we just need to mimic the deeds of one who is born again.

The Holy Spirit just helps us if we try real hard to walk in the spirit instead of walking in the flesh?

And then if we fail, we just get back up and try harder next time to mimic the deeds of the Holy Spirit?


Christianity by deeds is OT Judaism minus sacrifices and offerings.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Why attempt to mimic deeds when you can come to the Lord Jesus Christ and receive the real thing?

 

[KennethC]

David,King Saul.............In fact we water downs Davids rape to adultery. The King GETS what he wants.

David was a mature believer when he WILLINGLY murdered,raped,lied,cheated,stole.

King Saul.............habitually lived this lifestyle for the second half of his life.

Both are in heaven.

Grace is sufficient.

But this isn't the majority Brother. The majority think that their NOT, murdering,lying,cheating,stealing,willingly sinning gains them heaven...............this is the deception. Not a bunch of believers who have "greasy grace."

Religion is satans ace trump, so religion gets the focus off of religion and onto sin.

Fantastic post! Thank you for sharing your insight, my Brother.

Really................


You are bringing up OT people who repented of what they did, they did not continue to habitual be sinners as you claim.

Second your supposed mention of David's adultery that you call rape, you do know that they got married and had other kids. Their firstborn was taken by God for their adultery, that was their punishment.

Yet David repented and lived on the rest of his life for God !!!

I think you missed that part about repented of what they did in your post to make it seem they were habitual sinners all their lives.

King Saul being saved can be seen in 1 Samuel 10:1-12........

We must be very careful in listing repented sinners as examples to apply them to unrepented sinners !!!

 

[kathryn]

God demands we forgive others. If God demands it of us, its pretty safe to say He demands it of Himself. Embrace the Grace and Rejoice!

I am saved by grace. I did nothing to earn or deserve my salvation. I cannot strive in myself to change myself, I can have no confidence in my flesh. Change comes through faith in Christ and the sanctification of the holy spirit.
I can have nothing to boast in of myself, all the glory is and must be Gods. Jesus died for all my sin at calvary, past, present and future. That is the truth that brings victory. And it is all mine, providing I am following after the holy spirit, for I have chosen my master.
If I choose not to follow after the holy spirit and start an affair with someone, I cannot say.

Praise God i am not under law but under grace, this sin is immediately forgiven for Jesus died for my sins, i have a righteousness apart from the law before God

I agree totally, we are to forgive others, that has no bearing on the post you responded to

 

[Grandpa]

G

I am far from perfect, I freely admit that. However, does that mean a person can become a christian and as a christian be a serial murderer, rapist, thief, drunk, adulterer as no one is perfect in the flesh?
That is my question to you, what is your opinion on that?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

What happens to a person when they come to Christ and become a Christian?

They are born again of the Holy Spirit, right?

The Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are the cause of our not walking according to the flesh. Murder, rape, etc..

Its not possible to be a born again Christian and still follow after the flesh for any period of time. Because a Christian knows there is a much better way, by relying on and abiding in Christ.

Psalm 23:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

 

[KennethC]

So we don't really need to be born again, we just need to mimic the deeds of one who is born again.

The Holy Spirit just helps us if we try real hard to walk in the spirit instead of walking in the flesh?

And then if we fail, we just get back up and try harder next time to mimic the deeds of the Holy Spirit?


Christianity by deeds is OT Judaism minus sacrifices and offerings.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Why attempt to mimic deeds when you can come to the Lord Jesus Christ and receive the real thing?

What ???

You do realize that when we are born again that is the moment the Holy Spirit is placed in us, and He is the one who guides us in how to walk ???

We still have the choice to obey His guidance or not, we are not puppets that are forced to be a certain way !!!

That is why Paul addressed so many and rebuked them for walking improperly, if we are just magically made or forced to be a certain way Paul's epistles mean nothing then and can be tossed out of our bibles.

This whole concept of no free will or we have no choice is faulty !!!

If you claim to have the real thing then why do you not act then as He commanded, if you don't ???

He can not deny Himself therefore if He abides in us, so will His laws/commandments............

Again like I stated to another before Ephesians is misused as that is referring to God sending Jesus in the flesh to die on the cross for us, not the faith we have in Him that puts us under that Grace.

 

[kathryn]

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

What happens to a person when they come to Christ and become a Christian?

They are born again of the Holy Spirit, right?

The Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are the cause of our not walking according to the flesh. Murder, rape, etc..

Its not possible to be a born again Christian and still follow after the flesh for any period of time. Because a Christian knows there is a much better way, by relying on and abiding in Christ.

Psalm 23:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

The above I agree with. But it has been stated on this thread a person can constantly the whole of their christian life follow after the flesh rather than the spirit and still attain heaven.

In my view, that is at least as dangerous as preaching legalism

 

[Grandpa]

The above I agree with. But it has been stated on this thread a person can constantly the whole of their christian life follow after the flesh rather than the spirit and still attain heaven.

In my view, that is at least as dangerous as preaching legalism

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I agree...

 

[KennethC]

Okay, I get it, you're shortsighted, and I don't say this as an insult, but for clarification. Jesus' words on the Cross are not limited to only those people who witnessed His crucifixion, but rather, His words extend to all people who have faith in Him throughout space and time. He asks God to forgive us, for we know not what we do.

No I am not shortsighted as that would be another false allegation thrown at me, as a matter of fact those that are shortsighted Apostle Peter says are those who do not add the fruit of the Holy Spirit to their lives and forgot they were only cleansed of past sins !!! (2 Peter 1:9)

I know Jesus words are for all people, but sadly not all people follow what He says or make excuses up as to why they don't.

I have heard them all including by people on here; they don't apply to us, they were before the cross, He only gave them to the Jews, they are impossible, that would be putting us under the law, etc..........

Do I really need to go on with the lame excuses why not to obey our Lord Jesus by some, and I have heard these excuses all used on here by people claiming to be Christians ?

Believing in Jesus is an active faith that has standards in it to be upheld by us; the Holy Spirit was sent to help us not control us !!!

I missed that? Which post?

Post # 243

 

[Utah]

Jesus died for all my sin at calvary, past, present and future.

My dear Sister, look at the above words you wrote yourself. I rejoice in your faith in, and your love for, Jesus and it warms my heart to see such passion for Him. And with that, I encourage you to dig a little deeper into the grand scale regarding the magnitude of God's saving grace that we have in Jesus Christ. He is our Lord and Savior, not our Lord and quasi-assistant. It is precisely for that reason that His grace is sufficient. Even to the most wretched.