Miss conceptions concerning the covenants.

[gotime]

Warning not short and will require thought and study.

Many today will say that the 10 commandments are done away with in the Old Covenant and will often quote such scriptures as:

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

here it is claimed that the ten commandments are called the covenant but let us examine the truth of this matter. Before I deal with this verse we will go back and examine the first covenant, to do this we know where to look as it is written:

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

So the covenant was established at Horeb after the exodus with Israel, so lets take a look and we find the covenant first given in Exodus 19 as it is written:

Exo 19:2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.

here they are at Horeb and what happens?

Moses goes up to God and God speaks to Moses these words:

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

So the very first Covenant known as the Old covenant was to "obey my voice and keep my covenant" So here we first see that they were to obey His voice and keep his covenant.

and then Moses comes down to the people and tells them these words and they respond:

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

so the People willingly enter into covenant with God. what is a covenant?

Webster defines it this way: "A mutual agreement of two or more persons or parties, in writing and under seal, to do or to refrain from, some act or thing; a contract; stipulation."

So here we can see that two parties, God and the Israel make an agreement. It is important to note that at this point they have entered into covenant with God Yet the 10 commandments are not Yet given.

So what about Deut 4 which said:

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is per tenant to realize that the ten commandments as mentioned were given after Israel had made covenant with God. Its also obvious to the observant mind that here Moses does not say, the covenant or a covenant but "his covenant" It is Gods covenant this is not the Old covenant itself but Gods covenant which He spoke from the mount. But "the" covenant was made before this and now God gives his Covenant which the people of Israel would obey as they have already entered into covenant with God in chapter 19.

In fact the same language is used in exodus 19 notice:

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

The covenant itself is not the ten commandments as they come after but rather the first covenant is a mutual agreement to obey Gods voice and keep his covenant. between God and Israel. But his covenant is only binding on the basis of the mutual agreement/covenant made in Exodus 19.

It is also a point of note that the Deut 4:23 is not a covenant made but a covenant commanded by God, on the premise that they have covenanted with God to do so. It is assumed that one can see the difference between a covenant mutually agreed upon by two parties as seen in Exodus 19 and a covenant command as seen in duet 4. One is contingent on the other. God commands those who have made covenant with Him.





Thus it is clear that the 10 commandments were the basis of the agreement made in chapter 19. And this is why that are called his covenant. It is also evident that the 10 commandments existed before exodus 20 as Goad already had his covenant.

The same can be seen today in how we live in our states. To be a citizen we make agreement to obey and conform to the state. This then brings the commands of the law of that state upon us. Thus when we covenant to become a citizen we also agree to follow that states commands/law. To become a citizen is an agreement between two parties the person and the state. But the conditions are to keep the state laws. this is the second definition of covenant

"a writing containing the terms of agreement between parties." Thus the conditions upon which an agreement or covenant rests.

Paul connects these concepts here:

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

when you have no citizenship you are not part of the covenants of promise. Notice that within the agreements are covenants of promise. The promises of God which are in conjunction with the commands of God. God graciously blesses those who follow His commands. His covenant. Thus we have the blessings of the law which come from following the commands of God which come from entering into the covenant in exodus 19.

I will continue this later addressing other scriptures on the covenant as I have time and then eventually looking at the new covenant.

 

[sparkman]

If anyone wants to dialogue with a former Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat law observer who changed from that view, feel free to contact me through email here on christianchat.com. I observed these things from about 1985 to 1995 as a member of Worldwide Church of God. In addition, I have made a lot of remarks regarding this topic in my profile if you care to read it.

I am no longer a Sabbath observer and attend an Evangelical Free Churches of America congregation.

My remarks below are not concerning Sabbathkeepers who observe Saturday as a matter of individual preference. The remarks are concerning those who claim that Sabbathkeeping is a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation. Most Sabbathkeepers (not all) believe that non-observers are sinning by non-observance, whether knowingly or unknowingly. They probably won’t tell you that up front, though. Their belief in this regard largely comes from their misunderstanding of I John 3:4.

Sabbathkeepers generally fail to understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. They will attempt to lead you down the path of a certain group of “proof texts” that lead you to think that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement for Christians, and that you are in sin for non-compliance. Their reasoning sounds pretty good on a surface level to those who are unacquainted with the context of their proof-texts, but when studied at a deeper level they aren’t credible.

Quite often, their indoctrination includes a faulty view of church history which portrays Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church as the villains in a conspiracy theory to do away with “God’s law”, even though Sunday meetings within the church occurred much earlier and for different reasons than they claim.

It is plain what the focus of Christianity is; the focus is embedded in the name itself. It is about the unique God-man who came to die a substitutionary death on the behalf of the redeemed, so that those who repent and place their faith in Him can be forgiven and restored to a good relationship with God. In recognition of the monumental event of the crucifixion and the resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week, it is appropriate for Christians to assemble on this day to celebrate and worship.

The Sabbath pointed to Jesus Christ and our life of faith in Him and his atonement as our spiritual rest (Matt 11:28-30, Hebrews 4:9-10, Colossians 2:16-17). The Sabbath was a type relating to this reality. It was a mere shadow. We have the Reality now, in our relationship with Jesus Christ. This relationship is a continuing rest; not just a certain day. We have peace now through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).

It's a waste of time to argue with Sabbathkeepers concerning this issue, though. They are already indoctrinated into a worldview which is impossible to penetrate, except through the power of the Holy Spirit. They are convinced that they are the ones who know "the Truth" (their worldview) and that everyone else is deceived. I was exactly the same way, but I was the deceived one.

If you are troubled by this issue, I suggest reading the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to study the issue of Sabbathkeeping and the Old and New Covenants before wasting years with their teachings…years that could be spent proclaiming Jesus Christ and him crucified. That’s the true gospel.

In addition to their lack of focus on Jesus Christ, the Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat observance is usually only the tip of the iceberg as far as doctrinal problems. As an example, the cultic group I was involved with, Armstrongism, denied the Trinity, claimed they were going to be fully God in the resurrection, and denied the salvation of all other believers outside of their organization. They considered Sabbath-breaking to be the Mark of the Beast. Other organizations deny the full deity of Jesus Christ, the writings of the apostle Paul, and follow extra-biblical writings such as their prophet or prophetess or the writings of Judaism such as the Talmud.

Sabbathkeepers are largely taught by people who are full of intellectual pride and vanity, and proclaim their superior knowledge to the world. These teachers view everything within Christianity with evil suspicions, and seek to discredit it in any way they can to build themselves and their organizations up. As a result, they usually don’t hold just one aberrant theology but many. They are contentious, argumentative people who criticize other organizations on small details, while teaching massive errors themselves. Scripture has a lot to say about such individuals, and it is not good.

There are members of some of these organizations on this forum, including Armstrongites such as Restored Church of God, United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, and Living Church of God. In addition, some Hebrew Roots Movement adherents and Messianic Jew groups have doctrinal issues like I mentioned. Seventh Day Adventists claim to be the “remnant church” which in essence is a claim that they are the true church, and that Sunday observance will be the Mark of the Beast in the end times.

 

[sparkman]

Regarding the 10 commandments, the SDAs teach that the Torah was split into two different parts; the Ten Commandments and the "Book of the Covenant".

They claim that the Ten Commandments are still valid for New Covenant Christians and that the "Book of the Covenant" is the part which was done away with.

Their position is one that some other evangelical Christians may believe because they have not dealt with these issues before.

There was only one law. The Ten Commandments were the overview of the entire Old Covenant. The "Book of the Covenant", which was written on parchment, elaborated on the overview, which was the Ten Commandments. There were additional laws and ordinances contained in the Book of the Covenant, but in essence, the Book of the Covenant broke the Ten Commandments out into further detail.

Notice that the container which held the Ten Commandments is called the Ark of the Covenant. The word "ark" simply means container. Inside the ark were the two stone tablets where the Ten Commandments were written.

By the way, contrary to SDA belief, each of these tablets were written on both sides, and I believe that they were two identical copies of the Ten Commandments. Their view that the tablets were written on only one side with 1/2 of the commandments on each tablet comes from a vision by their "prophetess", Ellen G. White.

This also reminds me of another SDA on this site who talked to an atheist guy about salvation off site, which he was not supposed to do. He told the atheist guy that the Sabbath was the most important commandment, and that he needed to start keeping it. The atheist guy told me about this later, and laughed about it because of the craziness..he said, what in the world (I'll use nicer words), does he really think keeping the Sabbath is more important than not murdering people?? By the way, I don't think the need to place his faith in Jesus Christ was brought up during this conversation..just the Sabbath.

At any rate, regarding the SDA teaching on this issue, you might want to review this series of videos which gives a well-thought out view on the topic that is the focus of this thread. There are seven 15 minute segments to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKnzCuBYVJm5aePMh-rTUtoi2-QNiKDs2

Most Christians don't understand the underlying issues that are involved with this topic, and the video does a good job at explaining them.

By the way, SDAs don't follow their own theology in this regard. While they will claim that they don't believe the Book of the Covenant applies, they will pull the clean/unclean meat laws from the Book of the Covenant.

In addition, their explanation of Colossians 2:16-17 is ridiculous. They realize that if the weekly Sabbath is included in the group of items mentioned in Colossians 2:16-17, their theology is refuted. So, they claim that the word "Sabbaths" doesn't mean the weekly Sabbath. The word is sabbaton in Greek. sabbaton is mentioned 59 other times in the New Testament where it is translated Sabbath, and they will agree that it refers to the weekly Sabbath, but in this one case they will claim it refers to the annual festivals, which are already mentioned in the same verses. In addition, sabbaton is translated "week" in other places in the New Testament, so it is very apparent that sabbaton has a weekly context, not an annual context.

SDA scholars have wrangled with this issue for decades to try to come up with some type of alternated explanation around this dilemma with no credible explanation.

In addition, they would need to answer the question, why are there no mentions of Sabbath-breaking or eating unclean meats in the sin lists of the Gentiles? These sin lists were fairly detailed, listing obvious and non-obvious sins, yet these items are not mentioned whatsoever in these lists. Also, why were there no instructions given to the Gentiles on proper keeping of the Sabbath?

The biggest thing that convinced me concerning this issue, though, is the obsession that Sabbathkeepers have concerning this issue. Most of them fixate on this topic and Jesus Christ is not their focus. It is apparent that Christianity is all about Jesus Christ, yet this focus is lost by most of them.

As an Armstrongite I didn't even know that grace meant "unmerited favor" until after the legalism trance was broken. So, I am not at all a fan of this mentality. I believe it takes away from Jesus Christ and the focus on him. Sunday observance does the opposite. Christianity is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and celebrating this event is very appropriate.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
Isn't it true that SDA membership in the US is plummeting, and the internet is a cheap place to try to recruit new members? I read somewhere that it costs a crazy amount of money (something like $42,000) to make one new SDA recruit (more in California; something like $90,000-$100,000).

What's the SDA position on tithing? (I can probably guess what it is)

Regarding the 10 commandments, the SDAs teach that the Torah was split into two different parts; the Ten Commandments and the "Book of the Covenant".

They claim that the Ten Commandments are still valid for New Covenant Christians and that the "Book of the Covenant" is the part which was done away with.

Their position is one that some other evangelical Christians may believe because they have not dealt with these issues before.

There was only one law. The Ten Commandments were the overview of the entire Old Covenant. The "Book of the Covenant", which was written on parchment, elaborated on the overview, which was the Ten Commandments. There were additional laws and ordinances contained in the Book of the Covenant, but in essence, the Book of the Covenant broke the Ten Commandments out into further detail.

Notice that the container which held the Ten Commandments is called the Ark of the Covenant. The word "ark" simply means container. Inside the ark were the two stone tablets where the Ten Commandments were written.

By the way, contrary to SDA belief, each of these tablets were written on both sides, and I believe that they were two identical copies of the Ten Commandments. Their view that the tablets were written on only one side with 1/2 of the commandments on each tablet comes from a vision by their "prophetess", Ellen G. White.

This also reminds me of another SDA on this site who talked to an atheist guy about salvation off site, which he was not supposed to do. He told the atheist guy that the Sabbath was the most important commandment, and that he needed to start keeping it. The atheist guy told me about this later, and laughed about it because of the craziness..he said, what in the world (I'll use nicer words), does he really think keeping the Sabbath is more important than not murdering people?? By the way, I don't think the need to place his faith in Jesus Christ was brought up during this conversation..just the Sabbath.

At any rate, regarding the SDA teaching on this issue, you might want to review this series of videos which gives a well-thought out view on the topic that is the focus of this thread. There are seven 15 minute segments to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKnzCuBYVJm5aePMh-rTUtoi2-QNiKDs2

Most Christians don't understand the underlying issues that are involved with this topic, and the video does a good job at explaining them.

By the way, SDAs don't follow their own theology in this regard. While they will claim that they don't believe the Book of the Covenant applies, they will pull the clean/unclean meat laws from the Book of the Covenant.

In addition, their explanation of Colossians 2:16-17 is ridiculous. They realize that if the weekly Sabbath is included in the group of items mentioned in Colossians 2:16-17, their theology is refuted. So, they claim that the word "Sabbaths" doesn't mean the weekly Sabbath. The word is sabbaton in Greek. sabbaton is mentioned 59 other times in the New Testament where it is translated Sabbath, and they will agree that it refers to the weekly Sabbath, but in this one case they will claim it refers to the annual festivals, which are already mentioned in the same verses. In addition, sabbaton is translated "week" in other places in the New Testament, so it is very apparent that sabbaton has a weekly context, not an annual context.

SDA scholars have wrangled with this issue for decades to try to come up with some type of alternated explanation around this dilemma with no credible explanation.

In addition, they would need to answer the question, why are there no mentions of Sabbath-breaking or eating unclean meats in the sin lists of the Gentiles? These sin lists were fairly detailed, listing obvious and non-obvious sins, yet these items are not mentioned whatsoever in these lists. Also, why were there no instructions given to the Gentiles on proper keeping of the Sabbath?

The biggest thing that convinced me concerning this issue, though, is the obsession that Sabbathkeepers have concerning this issue. Most of them fixate on this topic and Jesus Christ is not their focus. It is apparent that Christianity is all about Jesus Christ, yet this focus is lost by most of them.

As an Armstrongite I didn't even know that grace meant "unmerited favor" until after the legalism trance was broken. So, I am not at all a fan of this mentality. I believe it takes away from Jesus Christ and the focus on him. Sunday observance does the opposite. Christianity is about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and celebrating this event is very appropriate.

 

[posthuman]

What's the SDA position on tithing? (I can probably guess what it is)

full details here --

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/-/use-of-tithe/

i think your guess is probably pretty close to correct. they teach it all should go towards evangelizing missions and teaching, none of it even towards local church upkeep.
at the bottom of the page they make a distinction between "tithes" and "offerings" -- so i would guess they view the "tithe" as if an obedience to a law, not as a gift.

from this (admittedly anti-SDA bias) page --

http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithing.htm#seventhdaydoctrine

it seems that my thinking is correct that they view it as a binding ordinance on believers - i.e. 'under compulsion' - which is contrary, as i understand it, to the NT epistles.

 

[popeye]

If anyone wants to dialogue with a former Sabbath/festival/clean and unclean meat law observer who changed from that view, feel free to contact me through email here on christianchat.com. I observed these things from about 1985 to 1995 as a member of Worldwide Church of God. In addition, I have made a lot of remarks regarding this topic in my profile if you care to read it.

I am no longer a Sabbath observer and attend an Evangelical Free Churches of America congregation.

My remarks below are not concerning Sabbathkeepers who observe Saturday as a matter of individual preference. The remarks are concerning those who claim that Sabbathkeeping is a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation. Most Sabbathkeepers (not all) believe that non-observers are sinning by non-observance, whether knowingly or unknowingly. They probably won’t tell you that up front, though. Their belief in this regard largely comes from their misunderstanding of I John 3:4.

Sabbathkeepers generally fail to understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. They will attempt to lead you down the path of a certain group of “proof texts” that lead you to think that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement for Christians, and that you are in sin for non-compliance. Their reasoning sounds pretty good on a surface level to those who are unacquainted with the context of their proof-texts, but when studied at a deeper level they aren’t credible.

Quite often, their indoctrination includes a faulty view of church history which portrays Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church as the villains in a conspiracy theory to do away with “God’s law”, even though Sunday meetings within the church occurred much earlier and for different reasons than they claim.

It is plain what the focus of Christianity is; the focus is embedded in the name itself. It is about the unique God-man who came to die a substitutionary death on the behalf of the redeemed, so that those who repent and place their faith in Him can be forgiven and restored to a good relationship with God. In recognition of the monumental event of the crucifixion and the resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week, it is appropriate for Christians to assemble on this day to celebrate and worship.

The Sabbath pointed to Jesus Christ and our life of faith in Him and his atonement as our spiritual rest (Matt 11:28-30, Hebrews 4:9-10, Colossians 2:16-17). The Sabbath was a type relating to this reality. It was a mere shadow. We have the Reality now, in our relationship with Jesus Christ. This relationship is a continuing rest; not just a certain day. We have peace now through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).

It's a waste of time to argue with Sabbathkeepers concerning this issue, though. They are already indoctrinated into a worldview which is impossible to penetrate, except through the power of the Holy Spirit. They are convinced that they are the ones who know "the Truth" (their worldview) and that everyone else is deceived. I was exactly the same way, but I was the deceived one.

If you are troubled by this issue, I suggest reading the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to study the issue of Sabbathkeeping and the Old and New Covenants before wasting years with their teachings…years that could be spent proclaiming Jesus Christ and him crucified. That’s the true gospel.

In addition to their lack of focus on Jesus Christ, the Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat observance is usually only the tip of the iceberg as far as doctrinal problems. As an example, the cultic group I was involved with, Armstrongism, denied the Trinity, claimed they were going to be fully God in the resurrection, and denied the salvation of all other believers outside of their organization. They considered Sabbath-breaking to be the Mark of the Beast. Other organizations deny the full deity of Jesus Christ, the writings of the apostle Paul, and follow extra-biblical writings such as their prophet or prophetess or the writings of Judaism such as the Talmud.

Sabbathkeepers are largely taught by people who are full of intellectual pride and vanity, and proclaim their superior knowledge to the world. These teachers view everything within Christianity with evil suspicions, and seek to discredit it in any way they can to build themselves and their organizations up. As a result, they usually don’t hold just one aberrant theology but many. They are contentious, argumentative people who criticize other organizations on small details, while teaching massive errors themselves. Scripture has a lot to say about such individuals, and it is not good.

There are members of some of these organizations on this forum, including Armstrongites such as Restored Church of God, United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, and Living Church of God. In addition, some Hebrew Roots Movement adherents and Messianic Jew groups have doctrinal issues like I mentioned. Seventh Day Adventists claim to be the “remnant church” which in essence is a claim that they are the true church, and that Sunday observance will be the Mark of the Beast in the end times.

Good post sir.

I would even take it a step further and point to heb 3&4,which declare Jesus has become our Sabbath rest.

IOW,the law giver is greater than the law.

Or

Everyday is our Sabbath rest.

 

[KennethC]

Good post sir.

I would even take it a step further and point to heb 3&4,which declare Jesus has become our Sabbath rest.

IOW,the law giver is greater than the law.

Or

Everyday is our Sabbath rest.

Thank you for pointing out Hebrews 3 and 4, for here we have a place in the NT (New Covenant) that shows the observing the Sabbath is not done away with. How it is observed now is what it is showing here !!!

To many people when they here keeping or obeying the 10 Commandments still is part of the new covenant, the first and main thing they also go to is the written ordinance form of thinking.

There is a spiritual side that continues to get ignored, and that is when we walk in love we will establish, uphold, and thus fulfill those commandments.

If you still want to think of it in the written form then you must resort to still putting people to death for breaking them, but that in turn would be doing exactly what Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for doing.

Following the written ordinance form and ignoring the spiritual side of faith, mercy, and justice !!!

Jesus did not abolish or do away with the commandments of God, He showed us a better and easier way of fulfilling them; Walk in love for all !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Thank you for pointing out Hebrews 3 and 4, for here we have a place in the NT (New Covenant) that shows the observing the Sabbath is not done away with. How it is observed now is what it is showing here !!!

The weekly sabbath is not even mentioned in Hebrews 3 or 4.

 

[Grandpa]

Jesus did not abolish or do away with the commandments of God, He showed us a better and easier way of fulfilling them; Walk in love for all !!!

How is that a better and easier way than everyone else who has ever followed the 10 commandments?

 

[royalscot]

history do not do away with them, it asks you, who can follow fully. (law)

now with the requirement of the law of moses , you would need, a temple of stone to follow this law fully.

yet why would he write.6 he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."Isaiah 49: The Servant of the LORD

and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
not any law, but my salvation. will reach the ends of the boundary of the world. ie spoke to all nation there is a god through jesus christ. etc

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

We who are of the seed of promise in Jesus Christ are of the Everlasting Covenant God made with Abraham which is based on faith. The law which came 430 after this Everlasting Covenant cannot make void the promise.

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"


Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Those who are of the circumcision of the heart by the promise of the Spirit of God have His testimony and law written on our hearts.

 

[gotime]

.
Isn't it true that SDA membership in the US is plummeting, and the internet is a cheap place to try to recruit new members? I read somewhere that it costs a crazy amount of money (something like $42,000) to make one new SDA recruit (more in California; something like $90,000-$100,000).

What's the SDA position on tithing? (I can probably guess what it is)

Just for your information we are growing faster than ever before. As for costing it sounds like a joke to me. To give you an Idea of our growth for 2014 we opened a church every 3.5 hours around the world. The last figures 2014 for people who were baptized into the church was at 1,167,796 that is 3,197 people a day or 133 people every hour. we were at a total membership of 18,479,257 as of the end of 2014. and every year our growth is getting bigger.

I don't know the stats for this year as they are not out yet. This only includes actual members, We have many who attend our churches on a weekly basis and study with us who are not yet members.

 

[gotime]

The 10 commandments were indeed in the ark. Thus called the ark of the covenant or sometimes the ark of the testimony:

Num_10:33 And they departed from the mount of the LORD three days' journey: and the ark of the covenant of the LORD went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them.

It was called this because the 10 commandments were inside:

Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

As said it was also called the ark of the testimonies.

Exo_25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Exo_25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.


Now it has been shown that the 10 commandments were "Gods covenant" His command to those who made covenant with Him in Exodus 19. That the 10 commandments are part of the New covenant also is easily shown when one understands the new covenant.

Notice the change in priesthood and sacrifice and place as seen in Hebrews:

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb_3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Jesus is the priest and what is the blood?

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Christ is our High priest and offers His own blood, He is the sacrifice for sins. But where does He minister?

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

notice that Christ is the High priest offering His own blood in the Temple made by God which is the better covenant.

Now take note this is fact and no one can deny these facts of the New Covenant.

1, Jesus is our High Priest
2, Jesus offered Himself as sacrifice once for all.
3, Jesus ministers in the temple in heaven made by God not man of which the earthly one was patterned after.

3 basic facts that took place after Jesus left this earth.

But now notice these words by John while on Patmos:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So John has a revelation of Jesus Christ. Now if this revelation is true, and Hebrews is true then John should see Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary concerning the new covenant.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

we see clearly that John is indeed seeing Christ in the heavenly sanctuary in symbol. But notice what else John sees concerning Jesus and judgment.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

The 10 commandments the testimony in the ark are mentioned in relation to Jesus in heaven. That is new covenant.

 

[sparkman]

Address Colossians 2:16-17. You can't

You know that sabbaton has a weekly context, and is translated alternatively "Sabbath" and "week". For instance, the first day of the week is referred to as mia sabbaton.

Here's an example:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mar/16/2/t_conc_973002

Click on Sabbaton and see how it is used in various verses in the NT. This will confirm my point.

I encourage everyone to check this out themselves. Sabbaton has a weekly context, and is translated alternatively, Sabbath (59 times) and week (9 times) in the New Testament.

In addition, the way the sentence is structured proves that it's talking about the weekly Sabbath. Seventh Day Adventists will never admit this, though, because they know it would group the weekly Sabbath in the same category as annual festivals, new moons, food and drink offerings..things they don't observe.

Torah observers and Armstrongites do the opposite..they say it does mean the weekly Sabbath, but they claim the annual festivals apply..but most of them will claim "food and drink" applies to food and drink eaten at the feast, and they will either claim they observe New Moons or that they aren't required anymore.

This is where comparing these verses to Hebrews 10:1-2 and Hebrews 9:9-11 comes in handy.

In brief, these guys are all inconsistent in their assertions. I was one of them so I am familiar with their mentality. They will defend it tooth and nail, because they've been indoctrinated and taught alternate explanations around inconsistencies. Rather than just admitting they are wrong, they will continue parroting their indoctrination.

Then, there's always the question why Sabbath-breaking is never mentioned in the sin lists of the Gentiles or in the apostolic instructions after the Cross, even though much more obvious and less obvious sins are mentioned.

Same with clean and unclean meats.

The 10 commandments were indeed in the ark. Thus called the ark of the covenant or sometimes the ark of the testimony:

Num_10:33 And they departed from the mount of the LORD three days' journey: and the ark of the covenant of the LORD went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them.

It was called this because the 10 commandments were inside:

Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

As said it was also called the ark of the testimonies.

Exo_25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Exo_25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.


Now it has been shown that the 10 commandments were "Gods covenant" His command to those who made covenant with Him in Exodus 19. That the 10 commandments are part of the New covenant also is easily shown when one understands the new covenant.

Notice the change in priesthood and sacrifice and place as seen in Hebrews:

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb_3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Jesus is the priest and what is the blood?

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Christ is our High priest and offers His own blood, He is the sacrifice for sins. But where does He minister?

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

notice that Christ is the High priest offering His own blood in the Temple made by God which is the better covenant.

Now take note this is fact and no one can deny these facts of the New Covenant.

1, Jesus is our High Priest
2, Jesus offered Himself as sacrifice once for all.
3, Jesus ministers in the temple in heaven made by God not man of which the earthly one was patterned after.

3 basic facts that took place after Jesus left this earth.

But now notice these words by John while on Patmos:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So John has a revelation of Jesus Christ. Now if this revelation is true, and Hebrews is true then John should see Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary concerning the new covenant.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

we see clearly that John is indeed seeing Christ in the heavenly sanctuary in symbol. But notice what else John sees concerning Jesus and judgment.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

The 10 commandments the testimony in the ark are mentioned in relation to Jesus in heaven. That is new covenant.

 

[sparkman]

Just for your information we are growing faster than ever before. As for costing it sounds like a joke to me. To give you an Idea of our growth for 2014 we opened a church every 3.5 hours around the world. The last figures 2014 for people who were baptized into the church was at 1,167,796 that is 3,197 people a day or 133 people every hour. we were at a total membership of 18,479,257 as of the end of 2014. and every year our growth is getting bigger.

I don't know the stats for this year as they are not out yet. This only includes actual members, We have many who attend our churches on a weekly basis and study with us who are not yet members.

About 500,000 leave the SDAS each year too. There's a massive ministry to ex SDAs. It's a revolving door.

I am guessing SDAs mostly capitalize on third world countries where biblical literacy isn't so high, just like the charismatic and Word of Faith movements are doing in Africa.

 

[gotime]

Address Colossians 2:16-17. You can't

You know that sabbaton has a weekly context, and is translated alternatively "Sabbath" and "week". For instance, the first day of the week is referred to as mia sabbaton.

Here's an example:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mar/16/2/t_conc_973002

Click on Sabbaton and see how it is used in various verses in the NT. This will confirm my point.

I encourage everyone to check this out themselves. Sabbaton has a weekly context, and is translated alternatively, Sabbath (59 times) and week (9 times) in the New Testament.

In addition, the way the sentence is structured proves that it's talking about the weekly Sabbath. Seventh Day Adventists will never admit this, though, because they know it would group the weekly Sabbath in the same category as annual festivals, new moons, food and drink offerings..things they don't observe.

Torah observers and Armstrongites do the opposite..they say it does mean the weekly Sabbath, but they claim the annual festivals apply..but most of them will claim "food and drink" applies to food and drink eaten at the feast, and they will either claim they observe New Moons or that they aren't required anymore.

This is where comparing these verses to Hebrews 10:1-2 and Hebrews 9:9-11 comes in handy.

In brief, these guys are all inconsistent in their assertions. I was one of them so I am familiar with their mentality. They will defend it tooth and nail, because they've been indoctrinated and taught alternate explanations around inconsistencies. Rather than just admitting they are wrong, they will continue parroting their indoctrination.

Then, there's always the question why Sabbath-breaking is never mentioned in the sin lists of the Gentiles or in the apostolic instructions after the Cross, even though much more obvious and less obvious sins are mentioned.

Same with clean and unclean meats.

Come now anyone can see you are blowing smoke. But I guess you wont address it cause you are the one that can't.

 

[gotime]

About 500,000 leave the SDAS each year too. There's a massive ministry to ex SDAs. It's a revolving door.

I am guessing SDAs mostly capitalize on third world countries where biblical literacy isn't so high, just like the charismatic and Word of Faith movements are doing in Africa.

Yes you are guessing.

 

[gotime]

sparkman I am not going to bother addressing your posts as they are sidetracking the issue.

 

[sparkman]

sparkman I am not going to bother addressing your posts as they are sidetracking the issue.

It's not a sidetracking. You want to convince people on the arguments that you think are stronger first, while avoiding talking about the big issues. The things I listed are the weakest points with the Sabbathkeeper argument, especially from the SDA perspective.

 

[sparkman]

Yes you are guessing.

I've seen the statistics from ex SDA ministries. The individuals providing the figures have connections within the SDA organization and were part of it themselves at one time. Overall growth may be there, but it's a revolving door. I imagine people join, then find out about the excessive focus on EGW in some congregations or dietary regulations or the problems with investigative judgment and the claim that the atonement is not finished, and eventually migrate out of it for those reasons.