Are we sinners?

[Grace777x70]

If the true grace of God is taught..yes..it will lead us to live godly in Christ..if people are stuck in sin and don't know how to get free of it..then in that case they would definitely still be living according to the flesh...and reap the consequences of that unless the Lord intervenes for them..

As in 1Cor 5..the man was going to be destroyed in the flesh by satan..and his spirit would have been saved despite his "living in the flesh"

the D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness religion has no power to effect a change in people's lives..only the gospel has the power for salvation.

It's the D.I.Y religion that condemns the christian that is stuck by the deceitfulness of sin and they don't know how to be free..that's where romans 8 comes in handy...

The only answer to all this is growing in the knowledge of Jesus and His great salvation!

LOL..I never once said we are a slave to sin....that just makes me laugh....we are saying the complete opposite!..no wonder I don't have a clue what you were trying to allude to.....your conclusion of this so-called message of grace is totally wrong...we say the complete opposite....we say that the grace of the gospel of Christ leads us to lead godly lives in this present world....how in the world you came up with the nonsense that Christians are salves to sin and do not have victory in Christ..is baffling ...

QUOTE]

The above is a contradiction, for you say even if someone follows after the flesh constantly the whole of their life they still attain to Heaven. But you also say, the gospel of the grace of Christ leads to Godly living.

So are you saying if a person doesn't follow the Gospel of Christ they are saved anyway?

 

[Grace777x70]

The flesh is not dead........the Old man is dead...those are two different things....

ok..let's look at it this way..your president is going out of office soon..the new one comes in and there is still the policies in effect from the former administration....the "new man" president needs to change these polices to reflect the new management....so in this analogy the old president = old man new president = new man in Christ.

Then where do we sin from? It is not our new nature.

If the flesh was experientially dead,dead,dead..............we could not sin.

our old thoughts, old habits and old way of doing things......is the old man. And they are not experientially dead.

 

[kathryn]

If the true grace of God is taught..yes..it will lead us to live godly in Christ..if people are stuck in sin and don't know how to get free of it..then in that case they would definitely still be living according to the flesh...and reap the consequences of that unless the Lord intervenes for them..


Yet at the same time you say it doesn't matter if someone follows after the flesh(sin) constantly all their life they still attain Heaven, only the physical body is destroyed. You seem all over the place here

 

[Gr8grace]

The flesh is not dead........the Old man is dead...those are two different things....

ok..let's look at it this way..your president is going out of office soon..the new one comes in and there is still the policies in effect from the former administration....the "new man" president needs to change these polices to reflect the new management....so in this analogy the old president = old man new president = new man in Christ.

Can you show me scriptures that put a definite distinction between the flesh and the old man?

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 13:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

"sin" is an entity ..it is in our flesh..

it is first mentioned in Genesis when God spoke to Cain..

Genesis 4:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Here is what Vine says about sin...sin is a foreign entity within our flesh..it is not the real us!...we have a new nature now in Christ..which has no sin attached to it..hence the circumcision of Christ in our flesh and spirit.

governing principle or power, e.g., Rom. 6:6; "(the body) of sin," here "sin" is spoken of as an organized power, acting through the members of the body, this governing principle is personified


Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We don't overcome its longings or lusts. The flesh actually gets worse and worse, we don't stand a chance of overcoming it. And the flesh is condemned and is not and will not be redeemed.

We live in the power of the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. And He is not worried about cleaning up something or overcoming something that is judged and condemned.

Walking in the Spirit is living in the new creation in Christ and has absolutely nothing to with the flesh.....the flesh is on ignore.

If we are thinking that we have to overcome it or subdue it or make it a little better. We are probably living in the flesh...just the "good" side of it.

That's exactly what we do in the power (ability) of the holy spirit. That's exactly what Romans 7-8 is about. Through faith WE overcome sin. WE become its master.

 

[Grace777x70]

It's the flesh that we say is not of our nature..I have always said that the bod is not bad..but you miss that all the time..its endless with you..lol..you just see what you want to see....oh well..it's the nature of the beast I suppose..

The real us is a body/soul/spirit union. To live in a state of mind that denies the body is (part of) who we are can rightly be considered to be a mental disorder and the fruit of entertaining a neo-gnostic spirit.

 

[Gr8grace]

Romans 13:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

"sin" is an entity ..it is in our flesh..

it is first mentioned in Genesis when God spoke to Cain..

Genesis 4:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Here is what Vine says about sin...sin is a foreign entity within our flesh..it is not the real us!...we have a new nature now in Christ..which has no sin attached to it..hence the circumcision of Christ in our flesh and spirit.

governing principle or power, e.g., Rom. 6:6; "(the body) of sin," here "sin" is spoken of as an organized power, acting through the members of the body, this governing principle is personified


Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

Sin, its in our flesh.

The flesh is not dead

That why I say it more a matter of semantics between us brother.

There is still something in us that brings about sin..........we just are using different terms. And at this time in my walk, I don't see a problem with calling it the flesh,the old man,sin nature,old behaviors,old habits,old ways.

most of us are not confused or led astray by the use of the word "flesh" or "sin nature" when dealing with the sin aspect of this life.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 13:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

"sin" is an entity ..it is in our flesh..

The Augustinian idea of inherited sin being a substance dwelling in the flesh. Farley's sin-parasite that is foreign to our nature.

Sin is not a material thing that infects our flesh. It is a spirit of rebellion. That spirit influences what we do through the motions of sin that are so prevalent in our old nature. If we obey it, we die. If we obey the spirit, we live.

 

[Euphemia]

Modern/New/Hyper Grace is a religion of denial. It deals with the problem of the old man by denying his existence, rather than by sacrificing him on the cross of Christ. It is an identity faith that considers sin to be a symptom of a confused identity, rather than as the result of a persistent nature that must be starved daily. It's a faith that disassociates its practitioners from reality by pretending to get out of the way so that GOD can drive, rather than suffer the death of one's self so that GOD can fill the vessel and become one with it. It's a mystical mind game that has no stopgaps to determine what spirit it's actually letting in the door.

This is your opinion only, and it is not the truth.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's the flesh that we say is not of our nature..I have always said that the bod is not bad..but you miss that all the time..its endless with you..lol..you just see what you want to see....oh well..it's the nature of the beast I suppose..

The body is indistinguishable from the flesh. It has not been renewed.

 

[Euphemia]

Paul's use of the present tense is merely a literary device to emphasize hiw he was in the past. We in English do not use this type of device to express a stark truth.

This is simply not true. In 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul said I am foremost of sinners. Present Indicative Active.

1 Timothy 1:15 Greek Text Analysis

 

[KennethC]

We don't overcome its longings or lusts. The flesh actually gets worse and worse, we don't stand a chance of overcoming it. And the flesh is condemned and is not and will not be redeemed.

We live in the power of the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. And He is not worried about cleaning up something or overcoming something that is judged and condemned.

Walking in the Spirit is living in the new creation in Christ and has absolutely nothing to with the flesh.....the flesh is on ignore.

If we are thinking that we have to overcome it or subdue it or make it a little better. We are probably living in the flesh...just the "good" side of it.

Why do you think the Lord chastises us for ???

This is mentioned all throughout the NT and especially in Paul's epistles that our sinful actions in the flesh are to be put an end to, and the Spirit does exactly that with His guidance.

You claim we never overcome and Grace777x70 liked your post.............

I am sadden for both of you that you walk around in such a defeated state of mind, as Jesus clearly said only those who overcome the world will get eternal life. That means to overcome our sinful ways to no longer walk that way.

God's grace by Jesus crucifixion covers our sins that are repent of, it does not cover the sins of unrepented or deliberate continued sins !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul's use of the present tense is merely a literary device to emphasize hiw he was in the past. We in English do not use this type of device to express a stark truth.

Opinion born of desperation.

 

[Euphemia]

This is one thing I don't like about the Modern/New/Hyper Grace mvmt. It teaches to focus on who we supposedly are (our identity), rather than the work of Christ himself which is what actually saves us, i.e., the blood that forgives all sin, right here, right now. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you..."

This is just more opinion, but is untrue.

 

[Gr8grace]

Why do you think the Lord chastises us for ???

This is mentioned all throughout the NT and especially in Paul's epistles that our sinful actions in the flesh are to be put an end to, and the Spirit does exactly that with His guidance.

You claim we never overcome and Grace777x70 liked your post.............

I am sadden for both of you that you walk around in such a defeated state of mind, as Jesus clearly said only those who overcome the world will get eternal life. That means to overcome our sinful ways to no longer walk that way.

God's grace by Jesus crucifixion covers our sins that are repent of, it does not cover the sins of unrepented or deliberate continued sins !!!

I pray and hope you understand grace at sometime Ken. You WILL find rest from all your labors.

 

[Grace777x70]

true...but the flesh is not the old man....the flesh can produce the deeds of the old man that is now dead..

I think it's in what do we "identify" ourselves with..the flesh where sin indwells it or with our new creation in Christ...

Are we in Christ?..is He our new nature and life?..the flesh which is in our body will not come with us to heaven.

There are 3 usages of the term flesh in the NT,

1) the habits, ways and thinking of our old man that died with Christ.

2) just sometimes used to say the flesh of the body.."sarx"

3) it is used in describing our own self-effort to a D.I.Y. righteousness/holiness


It's probably both!...the flesh is usually referred to as the old manner of life which was in the "old man".....

Ephesians 4:22-24 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life ( our old habits, thought patterns, our self ways of doing things independantly of God - which is our flesh ), you lay aside ( this is past tense in greek ..as in already having been done ) the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Then there is the power of "sin" in the flesh too which causes us to do things we really don't want to..( this is where walking according to the spirit overcomes this )

Romans 7:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Then comes Romans 8...the life with no condemnation in Christ and walking after the spirit will put to death the deeds of the body/flesh.

Sin, its in our flesh.



That why I say it more a matter of semantics between us brother.

There is still something in us that brings about sin..........we just are using different terms. And at this time in my walk, I don't see a problem with calling it the flesh,the old man,sin nature,old behaviors,old habits,old ways.

most of us are not confused or led astray by the use of the word "flesh" or "sin nature" when dealing with the sin aspect of this life.

 

[Grace777x70]

I "liked" the idea that Gr8grace puts forth

Walking in the Spirit is living in the new creation in Christ and has absolutely nothing to with the flesh...

The flesh will always be here because that is where "sin" is in our flesh..not in our inner man..our new creation in Christ...not that we will always be at the mercy of the sin in us...we are saying the very opposite in fact!

I especially like this one he said..as it is so true!..this is where the D.I.Y. righteousness/holiness mindset comes into play...

If we are thinking that we have to overcome it or subdue it or make it a little better. We are probably living in the flesh...just the "good" side of it.

Why do you think the Lord chastises us for ???

This is mentioned all throughout the NT and especially in Paul's epistles that our sinful actions in the flesh are to be put an end to, and the Spirit does exactly that with His guidance.

You claim we never overcome and Grace777x70 liked your post.............

I am sadden for both of you that you walk around in such a defeated state of mind, as Jesus clearly said only those who overcome the world will get eternal life. That means to overcome our sinful ways to no longer walk that way.

God's grace by Jesus crucifixion covers our sins that are repent of, it does not cover the sins of unrepented or deliberate continued sins !!!

 

[ladylynn]

I think a re post is in order. Do you guys even read these?????




We no longer have 2 natures., the old man was put to death on the cross and we died., we are to 'recon ourselves dead to sin' Romans 6:11

We do not have a CIVIL WAR going on inside us. We have the memory/habit of living going on of how our minds and bodies used to live and think for our very life's existence. We depended on ourselves. We relied on how we thought and what we did. BUT NOW we are called to live a new way. Why do you suppose we are admonished to repent and have our minds actively changed from the inside out by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God?

Maybe that is why so many of us are not walking in the fullness of Christ as we could be. We don't agree with God on so many matters of what the Bible says and instead go with how we feel and what we understand in our humaness. Although He has given us a new spirit (of power and love and a sound mind) many Christians don't change to be what we already are IN Christ.

We have to agree with God when He said you are dead., and your life is now hid in Christ in God..... Col.3:2 Paul is making his appeal here to become IN experience what we ALREADY ARE by God's grace. We are risen in new life with Christ and our old man is DEAD.

Why don't more of us Christians live out who we are in Christ and have daily joy and victory? It's obvious, look at the 62.86% who identify themselves as sinners. If we want to be like Christ we can't believe our life is based on how WE think and feel ANYMORE., We are told to CHANGE YOUR MIND. Repent.. And that is a daily repentance/change of mind.

 

[ladylynn]

true...but the flesh is not the old man....the flesh can produce the deeds of the old man that is now dead..

I think it's in what do we "identify" ourselves with..the flesh where sin indwells it or with our new creation in Christ...

Are we in Christ?..is He our new nature and life?..the flesh which is in our body will not come with us to heaven.

There are 3 usages of the term flesh in the NT,

1) the habits, ways and thinking of our old man that died with Christ.

2) just sometimes used to say the flesh of the body.."sarx"

3) it is used in describing our own self-effort to a D.I.Y. righteousness/holiness


It's probably both!...the flesh is usually referred to as the old manner of life which was in the "old man".....

Ephesians 4:22-24 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life ( our old habits, thought patterns, our self ways of doing things independantly of God - which is our flesh ), you lay aside ( this is past tense in greek ..as in already having been done ) the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Then there is the power of "sin" in the flesh too which causes us to do things we really don't want to..( this is where walking according to the spirit overcomes this )

Romans 7:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Then comes Romans 8...the life with no condemnation in Christ and walking after the spirit will put to death the deeds of the body/flesh.

How many times have you posted these truths? Thanks for doing it again because it is needed very much.