Romans 6:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
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Gr8grace
Guest
Going on a mission trip when God has called you to just fund it.
Funding a mission trip when God has called you to just go on it.
Acting independently from Gods will for your life.........human good,evil,dung, "dirty" rags.
Jesus Christ+ sinning less for salvation. .....Human good that is independent from Gods will.
I don't believe that walking in the flesh affects our salvation....our life here....definitely.
Again....take the guy in 1Cor 5..he was having sex with his father's wife...he was going to be destroyed in the flesh...but not in his spirit....o
r take your person that is a slander and a maligner all their lives..will they "attain heaven"..we don't attain heaven..it is a free gift to us from our Father through Jesus our Lord and His finished work on our behalf.
I actually say that if one knows the grace of God..that grace will cause them to overcome sin and to walk godly in this life.
a lot of what has been taught in the past was a "works" salvation and some people never had a chance to live victoriously because of they were never taught about acceptance grace..every time they went to church they got condemned...
Again....take the guy in 1Cor 5..he was having sex with his father's wife...he was going to be destroyed in the flesh...but not in his spirit....o
r take your person that is a slander and a maligner all their lives..will they "attain heaven"..we don't attain heaven..it is a free gift to us from our Father through Jesus our Lord and His finished work on our behalf.
I actually say that if one knows the grace of God..that grace will cause them to overcome sin and to walk godly in this life.
a lot of what has been taught in the past was a "works" salvation and some people never had a chance to live victoriously because of they were never taught about acceptance grace..every time they went to church they got condemned...
Sinning less for salvation?
That would be a righteousness of observing the law, doesn't exist.
But following after the holy spirit rather than the flesh does exist
K
KennethC
Guest
Who's morals are you talking about though ???
Your personal morals or God's morals that is placed within us to live by ???
If you are speaking on our own personal morals than I can agree, but if you are talking about God's morals then you are wrong and I can not agree and neither does the Apostle Paul agree with you.
Paul says:
(1 Timothy 4:8)
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
Also I would suggest reading Philippians 3:12-14............
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Gr8grace
Guest
No ,they are exactly the same thing Ken. Remove the works. are they saved? You will say no. Thus works are needed for salvation. Its a no brainer my friend.
You teach a works based salvation. simple as that. I am an idiot and have a low IQ and can even see it.
There's nothing new under the sun. What goes around, comes around. I should have included Luther in that list because he practiced a lawless grace in great overreaction to Catholic legalism, just as Modern.New.Hyper Grace practitioners do against Protestant legalism; and who love to pattern themselves after Luther as being modern-day reformers. It's really funny in an ironic way.
I agree that many see no victory over sin because they do not understand grace.
You say if one knows the grace of God that will cause them to overcome sin
But you then say if one overcomes no sin- they follow after the flesh all their life they attain heaven anyway.
They are contradictory statements.
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KennethC
Guest
This though is speaking on doing self-righteousness, it does not pertain to doing His righteousness in our lives.
Without God's moral standards to go by, people can make up anything and call them good morals........
Do you think Muslim extremists murdering innocent people think they are doing wrong ??? No, to them this is what is asked of them to do, they think it is their morally right to do this !!!
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KennethC
Guest
They are only the same in your mind, but they are not the same..............
The reason I say if the works (fruit) are not there that the person isn't saved is because Jesus says the same........
No fruit -----Cut off and cast into the fire and burned !!!
How hard is it to understand that passage from the Lord, it is very straight forward in what it says. Only by corrupting and defiling His word would a person come away with another understanding.
Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John taught a works based faith as well !!!
They did not teach it in a way to where it earns salvation as you and others try to spin it, they taught those works we do as proof that we are saved and living for Christ !!!
Against Heresies, Irenaeus on the gnostics
On this account, [the gnostics] tell us that it is necessary for us [Christians] whom they call animal men, and describe as being of the world, to practise continence and good works, that by this means we may attain at length to the intermediate habitation [of paradise], but that to [the gnostics] who are called "the spiritual and perfect" such a course of conduct is not at all necessary. For it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma [paradise], but the seed sent forth thence in a feeble, immature state, and here [on earth] brought to perfection.
Against Heresies, Irenaeus on the gnostics
Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, they say, are these persons. Wherefore also [the gnostics] maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature.
No..they are not contradictory...they are 2 separate issues ...if one understands the true grace of Christ..then that grace will "taeach" them how to live godly in this present world.
The one that does not know about the true grace of Christ will be overcome with sin because they will be under law....and they will not have a very happy life on this earth...no overcoming for them...this could also include so-called clean-living people as well because they are living in slander and malice or whatever..it''s actually irrelevant what it is.....
..this has nothing to do with their eternal state in Christ....2 separate things...our eternal state of being in Christ is determined on His work alone and our belief in Him.
I know of people that had a problem with alcohol all their life but loved the Lord..just didn't know how to deal with it...religion told them to just stop...be holy!..etc...there is no life in the D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness religion...none.
there is only grace in the gospel of Christ..and in knowing who we are in Him....as we see Him..we transform..
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
are being transformed = present passive
present tense - continuous action
passive = an action happening to you - not you doing it..
The one that does not know about the true grace of Christ will be overcome with sin because they will be under law....and they will not have a very happy life on this earth...no overcoming for them...this could also include so-called clean-living people as well because they are living in slander and malice or whatever..it''s actually irrelevant what it is.....
..this has nothing to do with their eternal state in Christ....2 separate things...our eternal state of being in Christ is determined on His work alone and our belief in Him.
I know of people that had a problem with alcohol all their life but loved the Lord..just didn't know how to deal with it...religion told them to just stop...be holy!..etc...there is no life in the D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness religion...none.
there is only grace in the gospel of Christ..and in knowing who we are in Him....as we see Him..we transform..
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
are being transformed = present passive
present tense - continuous action
passive = an action happening to you - not you doing it..
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
I agree!
That is why we continually examine ourselves.
Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.
Philippians 4:13
I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
I agree!
That is why we continually examine ourselves.
Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.
Philippians 4:13
I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
LOL..
What the Gnostics believed was that matter was evil and spirit was good. Since matter was evil Christ could not have really been incarnate in a human body, that He only appeared to be in human form and only appeared to suffer. IOW they denied Jesus humanity and claimed that it was all an illusion. Which John refutes in 1 John. Ironically this led them to the conclusion that sin was also an illusion. I'm sure you can guess where that led them.
Your attempts to link Gnosticism to modern day grace believers is simply ridiculous.
I listened to Dr. Brown's agreement against the gnostic view put forth here. He said Gnosticism was just starting back then when John wrote his epistle and it became full blown by a 100 years later.
I reflected on that and all heresy has it's roots in truth. The apostles were preaching that our inner man..our new creation in Christ was circumcised from our flesh. Paul called it the circumcision of Christ..of the flesh and of the heart. Basically it's 2 sides of the same coin. This apparent" schism from the body gives rise to all sorts of thoughts and in the unregenerate man - strange stuff can come out of that.
It's kinda the same principal as people calling grace believers that we are saying it's ok to sin all we want. Paul was accused of the same thing. My point is we can always tell what is being preached by the opposition that comes against it
What the Gnostics believed was that matter was evil and spirit was good. Since matter was evil Christ could not have really been incarnate in a human body, that He only appeared to be in human form and only appeared to suffer. IOW they denied Jesus humanity and claimed that it was all an illusion. Which John refutes in 1 John. Ironically this led them to the conclusion that sin was also an illusion. I'm sure you can guess where that led them.
Your attempts to link Gnosticism to modern day grace believers is simply ridiculous.
I listened to Dr. Brown's agreement against the gnostic view put forth here. He said Gnosticism was just starting back then when John wrote his epistle and it became full blown by a 100 years later.
I reflected on that and all heresy has it's roots in truth. The apostles were preaching that our inner man..our new creation in Christ was circumcised from our flesh. Paul called it the circumcision of Christ..of the flesh and of the heart. Basically it's 2 sides of the same coin. This apparent" schism from the body gives rise to all sorts of thoughts and in the unregenerate man - strange stuff can come out of that.
It's kinda the same principal as people calling grace believers that we are saying it's ok to sin all we want. Paul was accused of the same thing. My point is we can always tell what is being preached by the opposition that comes against it
One's personal agenda to do good works, and what they entail apart from God actually telling him to do them are simply works outside of faith. It is when we do the works that God has called us to do that we see the success of them, the fruit of them and we receive a blessing in them. It can also be said that good works done apart from the Lord's will for us to do them can be called fruitless works, vain works, and even sin.
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This is so true...in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...both the "good" and the "evil" were in the same fruit...it's a subtle deceiving spirit in that it says..
You can be like God by knowing good and evil.....you can do this without God....it's the very fruit of the D.I.Y. self-effort righteousness/holiness mindset....Ican change myself....I will stop sinning....I will be good and holy.....
..it's very subtle as it appeals to our true calling in God....but denies the power of God for real effective change as that only comes through the Spirit of God transforming us as we behold Christ within us.
I always boils down to our trust and life in Christ and not us!..we participate in His fruit and good works!...but it originates with Him.
You can be like God by knowing good and evil.....you can do this without God....it's the very fruit of the D.I.Y. self-effort righteousness/holiness mindset....Ican change myself....I will stop sinning....I will be good and holy.....
..it's very subtle as it appeals to our true calling in God....but denies the power of God for real effective change as that only comes through the Spirit of God transforming us as we behold Christ within us.
I always boils down to our trust and life in Christ and not us!..we participate in His fruit and good works!...but it originates with Him.
But who is speaking of diy religion?
Hrftd isn't, neither am I. I cant recall anyone who has in these threads. Victory by faith in Christ and the spirits sanctification isn't diy religion is it?
To be clear, are you saying if a person understands true grace they cannot follow after the flesh all their life that would be impossible?
You keep mentioning maligning and slander as examples. If you believe anyone has maligned or slandered you personally you should air your grievance to them. You may not, but I just wondered why you didn't mention other things like pride and boasting, just repeating those two
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Gr8grace
Guest
And you nor I can discern if they were divine Good or human Good. We can see them be totally fooled that they were divine good, but only God knows the motive of the person.
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin. Our human good is evil in Gods sight.
This is where the majority of us fail in the Christian way of life. Not overt sinning. most of us get that cleaned up and rather quickly. But our human good.......it takes a good dose of bible doctrine to even "see" this problem,let alone work it out.
Oh..I just used slander and malign as it is the most common manifestation of the flesh on these boards.....and people use the biggie sins as if they are real bad ones in God's eyes and these will keep you from eternal life....but the other ones are just as evil....
When I speak of D.I.Y. mindset....people can put themselves into that category if they want.....I know I put myself in there at times also....that's why it's good to examine myself to see whether I am in faith in Christ alone or in myself....it's a good thing to do...
When I speak of D.I.Y. mindset....people can put themselves into that category if they want.....I know I put myself in there at times also....that's why it's good to examine myself to see whether I am in faith in Christ alone or in myself....it's a good thing to do...