Are we sinners?

[kathryn]

The only difference in sins that Paul spoke on was the one's that still control us, or the the one's we still struggle with in stopping. The other thing he spoke on was the common slip up here or there we all do as we mature in the faith.

He never states it is okay to continue deliberately doing any sins, or places them in a list to where you are safe if you only do these but will definitely go to hell if do these. There is no such teaching in the Word of God !!!

If you are an alcoholic when you come to Christ, can you cross over from being a slave to sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness if you get blind drunk seven nights a week?
Can you grow as a Christian if that happens?

What did Jesus say to Pilate?

Those who brought me to you are guilty of the greater sin

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what we were discussing ...you asked me if someone could follow after the flesh all their life and still attain heaven...I am glad that you agreed with me that a person can follow after the flesh and still go to heaven.

That topic is finished....

The slave to sin/righteousness thing... is a completely different topic..about certain sins if not dealt with..will stop a person from crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness....we will leave that discussion for another time tho...being a man....I can only deal with one topic at a time...lol

We get talk about that another time....have a good night!

Again, you appear sadly not to understand the work of sanctification ( or behaviour changes as you put it)

Paul never preached anyone was sinless in the flesh. But he did state if you are a slave to sin it leads to death. I wonder from your posts if you understand what he meant.

There are certain sins Tha if not dealt with will stop a person crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. Certain sins, if not dealt with will stop spiritual growth. They will ensure sin remains your master and you remain sins slave.
This is basic to the faith, you should know it.

 

[kathryn]

This is what we were discussing ...you asked me if someone could follow after the flesh all their life and still attain heaven...I am glad that you agreed with me that a person can follow after the flesh and still go to heaven.

That topic is finished....

The slave to sin/righteousness thing... is a completely different topic..about certain sins if not dealt with..will stop a person from crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness....we will leave that discussion for another time tho...being a man....I can only deal with one topic at a time...lol

We get talk about that another time....have a good night!

I don't think you understand the spiritual reality when we speak of following after the flesh.

When following after the flesh stops the holy spirit leading us forward in the christian life, we are then following after the flesh, not the spirit in those terms.
You and I might have 100 things the holy spirit needs to deal with in our lives( probably more lol) he will start with the most important. Numbers 99&100 will not stop us following after the holy spirit in the Gospel message, we are moving ever forward.
But there are sins that will stop us moving forward in the christian faith. If we follow after the flesh where these sins are concerned we must follow after the flesh and by doing so cannot follow after the spirit.

I would hope you agree with that

Therefore when speaking of following after the flesh rather than the spirit we have to understand what Tha entails/ means

 

[KennethC]

are some sins worse than others in Gods sight?

We would agree God has never changed.
Did all sin( breaking the law) under the old covenant receive the same punishment?

That did not answer my question as all you did was reverse it back with questions..

What scriptures are you using to base one group of sins is worse then another, and I already gave you one place where Jesus showed they are not in Luke 13.

How about the Pharisee who said, "thank God I am not like these other sinners" ???

He thought the same way that the sins others did was worse, but Jesus did not respect and had mercy on Matthew a tax collector and not on the Pharisee because of that selfish attitude.

Breaking all of the 10 Commandments in the OT carried the death penalty, but under the NT covenant we are not bound to those written ordinances.

If so then we need to start putting adulterers and those who work on the Sabbath to death because that is what is required by the old Mosaic laws. We are not bound to follow those therefore using the OT doesn't work for this, we have to go by what the standards in the New covenant state.

God doesn't change is true, but Him not changing does not apply to the standards He applies to us to follow by !!!

The Old Testament actually existed of multiple covenants, and in each one changes were made.

You had the Davidic, Mosaic, Abrahamic, and Noahic covenants............

 

[KennethC]

If you are an alcoholic when you come to Christ, can you cross over from being a slave to sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness if you get blind drunk seven nights a week?
Can you grow as a Christian if that happens?

What did Jesus say to Pilate?


Those who brought me to you are guilty of the greater sin

This still does not answer the question really and you are speaking of a alcoholic staying a alcoholic, for if they were a slave to righteousness they would not remain an alcoholic.

The bible clearly states no drunkard will get into the heavenly kingdom ( no eternal life).......

As for when Jesus addressed Pilate about those delivering Him were guilty of greater sin, Jesus was speaking on unbelief !!!

He was not referring to any individual specific sins like pride, self-righteousness, greed, and no mercy that they were guilty of. He was speaking solely on their unbelief in Him !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi James!...did you have a good Christmas?

 

[kathryn]

That did not answer my question as all you did was reverse it back with questions..

What scriptures are you using to base one group of sins is worse then another, and I already gave you one place where Jesus showed they are not in Luke 13.

How about the Pharisee who said, "thank God I am not like these other sinners" ???

He thought the same way that the sins others did was worse, but Jesus did not respect and had mercy on Matthew a tax collector and not on the Pharisee because of that selfish attitude.

Breaking all of the 10 Commandments in the OT carried the death penalty, but under the NT covenant we are not bound to those written ordinances.

If so then we need to start putting adulterers and those who work on the Sabbath to death because that is what is required by the old Mosaic laws. We are not bound to follow those therefore using the OT doesn't work for this, we have to go by what the standards in the New covenant state.

God doesn't change is true, but Him not changing does not apply to the standards He applies to us to follow by !!!

The Old Testament actually existed of multiple covenants, and in each one changes were made.

You had the Davidic, Mosaic, Abrahamic, and Noahic covenants............

The scriptures that prove God considers some sins worse than others can be found in the punishments for breaking OT law. If God considered all sin equal the same punishment would have been given for each and every laws violation. God never changes, therefore that on its own is proof.

Was David sinless before he slept with Bathsheeba? No! Did God view Davids previous sins as equal in gravity to him breaking three of the ten commandments one after the other? No!

I don't really want to continue this, unless you push it. In my view the more important discussion is being sidetracked from. Its up to you

 

[kathryn]

This still does not answer the question really and you are speaking of a alcoholic staying a alcoholic, for if they were a slave to righteousness they would not remain an alcoholic.

The bible clearly states no drunkard will get into the heavenly kingdom ( no eternal life).......

As for when Jesus addressed Pilate about those delivering Him were guilty of greater sin, Jesus was speaking on unbelief !!!

He was not referring to any individual specific sins like pride, self-righteousness, greed, and no mercy that they were guilty of. He was speaking solely on their unbelief in Him !!!

If no drunkard will enter heaven, and you accept no christian is sinless how can all sin be equal?

 

[KennethC]

The scriptures that prove God considers some sins worse than others can be found in the punishments for breaking OT law. If God considered all sin equal the same punishment would have been given for each and every laws violation. God never changes, therefore that on its own is proof.

Was David sinless before he slept with Bathsheeba? No! Did God view Davids previous sins as equal in gravity to him breaking three of the ten commandments one after the other? No!

I don't really want to continue this, unless you push it. In my view the more important discussion is being sidetracked from. Its up to you

Again we can not go by the OT ordinances because they do not apply under the new covenant that we are in.

We have to go by Jesus and what He said, as well what the Apostles said as well, and Paul said all sin leads the same place. He never once said some sins will not lead to hell but some will, the only time that is even addressed on going to heaven or hell it deals with repented sins or still be a slave to them.

If no drunkard will enter heaven, and you accept no christian is sinless how can all sin be equal?

You mentioned this in both posts and nobody is talking about "sinless perfection", that is a false doctrine to that is not supported by scripture.

I am not stating anybody is sinless but what we must realize is the difference between a sin done during one who is struggling and a sin done here or there on a backslide; to that of sin that is deliberately continued in !!!

That is the main issue that causes problems because people can not discern between those, and thus then make some sins acceptable and others not.

1 John 5 is talking about the struggling Christian, not a person who continues to do certain sins deliberately.

To take away from that passage when John said a sin that does not lead to death, as some sins can still be done and will not lead the person to the lake of fire is faulty. John is talking about a person who has repented but is still trying to stop doing the sins they are struggling with !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

 

[kathryn]

Again we can not go by the OT ordinances because they do not apply under the new covenant that we are in.

We have to go by Jesus and what He said, as well what the Apostles said as well, and Paul said all sin leads the same place. He never once said some sins will not lead to hell but some will, the only time that is even addressed on going to heaven or hell it deals with repented sins or still be a slave to them.






You mentioned this in both posts and nobody is talking about "sinless perfection", that is a false doctrine to that is not supported by scripture.

I am not stating anybody is sinless but what we must realize is the difference between a sin done during one who is struggling and a sin done here or there on a backslide; to that of sin that is deliberately continued in !!!

That is the main issue that causes problems because people can not discern between those, and thus then make some sins acceptable and others not.

1 John 5 is talking about the struggling Christian, not a person who continues to do certain sins deliberately.

To take away from that passage when John said a sin that does not lead to death, as some sins can still be done and will not lead the person to the lake of fire is faulty. John is talking about a person who has repented but is still trying to stop doing the sins they are struggling with !!!

I am not perfect in the flesh, so I sin. Does that stop me from growing as a Christian because i am imperfect in the flesh? No!
What if I had an affair, could i keep growing in the faith while the affair was ongoing because I am imperfect in the flesh? No i couldn't.
There is sin in all of us that needs dealing with as none are perfect, but some sin will stop your growth and block you from following after the holy spirit. So in your christian life some sin will affect you to a greater degree than other sin

But come on. If I went to a shop and stole something for a dollar, do you really believe God would view that as bad as if I killed someone?

I am certainly not excusing any kind of theft, but we have to see the reality

 

[KennethC]

I am not perfect in the flesh, so I sin. Does that stop me from growing as a Christian because i am imperfect in the flesh? No!
What if I had an affair, could i keep growing in the faith while the affair was ongoing because I am imperfect in the flesh? No i couldn't.
There is sin in all of us that needs dealing with as none are perfect, but some sin will stop your growth and block you from following after the holy spirit. So in your christian life some sin will affect you to a greater degree than other sin

But come on. If I went to a shop and stole something for a dollar, do you really believe God would view that as bad as if I killed someone?

I am certainly not excusing any kind of theft, but we have to see the reality

All sin that you struggle with will hinder your growth in the faith, not some !!!

Again nobody is saying we are perfect when it comes to this area, as we all have struggles with certain sins we have to deal with. But that struggling does not constitute still being a slave to it, or that it will prevent us from going to heaven.

Struggling is not the same as deliberately continuing to sin as the bible states.

If you continue to be a thief then yes, as remember in James it says clearly if you break one law then you are guilty of all of breaking all of it. The sin of being a habitual unrepented thief will lead to the same place as being a habitual unrepented murderer !!!

Rather you murder or steal and then repent of it (which means no longer do it also, as part of repentance is turning away from continuing to do that sin/s) then both will be forgiven as well.

A murderer who has repented will still go to heaven to, it is only if they continue to be a murderer will they not !!!

David murdered, Moses murdered, and Paul (when known as Saul) murdered:

Yet those 3 will be in heaven to because they repented.

 

[KennethC]

I don't know why you posted this because nobody is saying any of the four answers there.

God does not keep score on us, we will either stand before Christ and be judged on how faithful we were
(Believers)

Or will stand before God to face punishment (for Unbelievers and the disobedient)

God is not mad at anybody as He loves all people, which is why He sent His Son, but unfortunately not all people will put their full trust and faith in Him !!!

God does not punish believers, but He does chastise us to correct us......................

God loves everybody but everybody will not love Him.....

 

[Grace777x70]

It was just for humor...I thought you guys were done arguing...it wasn't pointed at anyone...

I don't know why you posted this because nobody is saying any of the four answers there.

God does not keep score on us, we will either stand before Christ and be judged on how faithful we were
(Believers)

Or will stand before God to face punishment (for Unbelievers and the disobedient)

God is not mad at anybody as He loves all people, which is why He sent His Son, but unfortunately not all people will put their full trust and faith in Him !!!

God does not punish believers, but He does chastise us to correct us......................

God loves everybody but everybody will not love Him.....

 

[crossnote]

are some sins worse than others in Gods sight?

We would agree God has never changed.
Did all sin( breaking the law) under the old covenant receive the same punishment?

All sins are damnable, but some sins are more damnable than others. (1984 Orwell's Version) hehe.

 

[kathryn]

It was just for humor...I thought you guys were done arguing...it wasn't pointed at anyone...

Arguing? I thought it was friendly debating

To the pure all things are pure, to the.........

Well you know

 

[KennethC]

It was just for humor...I thought you guys were done arguing...it wasn't pointed at anyone...

Nobody was or is arguing...........

I guess maybe we need to have a thread about the difference of arguing and debating ???

 

[blondieindahouse]

Arguing? I thought it was friendly debating

To the pure all things are pure, to the.........

Well you know

To the pure all things are pure? Was that a misquote of Phil 4:8?

God is pure holiness but he certainly doesnt claim all things are pure and holy does he?

 

[kathryn]

Nobody was or is arguing...........

I guess maybe we need to have a thread about the difference of arguing and debating ???

Grace likes to give the impression of one more spiritually mature than others, as though he I above arguing, but others who have not attained his level in the faith do argue.
If you see why he writes what he dies at times it wont bother you

 

[Gr8grace]

I don't know why you posted this because nobody is saying any of the four answers there.

God does not keep score on us, we will either stand before Christ and be judged on how faithful we were
(Believers)

Or will stand before God to face punishment (for Unbelievers and the disobedient)

God is not mad at anybody as He loves all people, which is why He sent His Son, but unfortunately not all people will put their full trust and faith in Him !!!

God does not punish believers, but He does chastise us to correct us......................

God loves everybody but everybody will not love Him.....

You are, you just don't know it or are trying to be deceptive. Sorry bud. If I am wrong, look long and hard at what you teach, I see it and many others see it.

If I am wrong .........explain it better please.