Can a christian lose their salvation

[BenFTW]

Because they are seduced by lies:

1 Timothy 4 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

I must admit, this is something I ponder myself. This is probably why I tend to say I agree more with E.S.O.T.B than O.S.A.S. Eternal security of the believer. Of course, people argue if they stopped believing they "weren't one us to begin with." Can someone believe and then stop believing? That would make them delusional, no? To have thought God existed and then to not... did they ever truly have what they said they did if they now profess it was nothing at all?

Its like saying there was a cookie on the table in the room you entered and then you say there wasn't. Either the cookie was there or it wasn't, but either way we know cookies are real. In the same way ex-Christians (atheists, not all) either experienced God or they didn't, but we know God exists. For them to say it was all a lie means they were delusional, but we know they only lacked intimacy with the Lord (real relationship) and probably experienced more of religion than Jesus.

I know that a believer is secure, according to the word of God. If a person can stop believing is something I am ignorant of... as I do not see how a person can experience something and yet deny its existence. Its like breathing air and yet denying its existence. How can a person be a Christian and then an atheist? They never truly experienced God, sadly. I believe O.S.A.S. for the believer, the one who truly believes in the Gospel. To those who left... its such a hard thing to fathom a true believer departing from the faith. How? Even why? Such a person would be lying to themselves.

It just seems unfathomable.

 

[ladylynn]

One and the same. If I give you a house and you must still pay the property taxes then it isn't free. Sure a gift, but costly if you can't afford it. In the same way how costly would it be for us to only enter into salvation and then must maintain it by our own deed. How many Christ would lose... with such a self-righteous gospel. How hopeless our endeavor to think we are capable. No, the foundation is sure and that is Jesus Christ and none other. Not myself, not you, and not any man is capable of maintaining salvation apart from Jesus (and His sacrifice).

Altogether we are hopeless without Him... yet people would have us believe Christ did one lap and passed us the baton, knowing fully well how imperfect we are. Do you think Jesus, loving you ever so much, would give you the opportunity to fall out of His hands once in? You came in and His grip is secure. Is Christ clumsy? No. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, He is our Advocate and High Priest ever interceding on our behalf. Stop striving and enter His rest, that is the simplicity of the Gospel.

Great post BenFTW!! I have read a lot of them about the beautiful doctrine of grace and the security of the believer but yours hit the 10 and the bell rang!!!! Blessings brother!

 

[ladylynn]

I must admit, this is something I ponder myself. This is probably why I tend to say I agree more with E.S.O.T.B than O.S.A.S. Eternal security of the believer. Of course, people argue if they stopped believing they "weren't one us to begin with." Can someone believe and then stop believing? That would make them delusional, no? To have thought God existed and then to not... did they ever truly have what they said they did if they now profess it was nothing at all?

Its like saying there was a cookie on the table in the room you entered and then you say there wasn't. Either the cookie was there or it wasn't, but either way we know cookies are real. In the same way ex-Christians (atheists, not all) either experienced God or they didn't, but we know God exists. For them to say it was all a lie means they were delusional, but we know they only lacked intimacy with the Lord (real relationship) and probably experienced more of religion than Jesus.

I know that a believer is secure, according to the word of God. If a person can stop believing is something I am ignorant of... as I do not see how a person can experience something and yet deny its existence. Its like breathing air and yet denying its existence. How can a person be a Christian and then an atheist? They never truly experienced God, sadly. I believe O.S.A.S. for the believer, the one who truly believes in the Gospel. To those who left... its such a hard thing to fathom a true believer departing from the faith. How? Even why? Such a person would be lying to themselves.

It just seems unfathomable.

I've thought of this too and it cemented my belief that since Jesus has saved us and bought us with a price., regenerated us., gave us a new birth...that we have been transformed from death unto life, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, no matter what the world throws our way, we cannot be lost again.

Just think of how complicated the human brain is.. have you ever been under anesthesia and they told you that while you were under you talked a lot but you couldn't imagine you would have said those things? Or been half asleep and half awake and not known what was real and what was a dream?

And what about mental illnesses and how people are totally convinced of something that is not there OR there, and they deny it?

For those and so many more reasons shows me how extremely important it was for Jesus to give us that assurance and security that no one and no thing can snatch us out of His hand., We can't always rely on our own minds., Elderly people who don't remember who they are or what to do, even forgetting how to eat.

We need a Savior that saves and keeps us.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

My question would be: If someone hears the "true" doctrine - Jesus Christ and him crucified then God raising him on the third day and believes in their heart this to be true - i.e. "He was manifested in the flesh, vidicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory" . . . then one day hears a different doctrine that causes him to depart from the "faith" - is the faith he departed from "faith in THE doctrine" or "faith in Christ"? Can I believe something taught as "doctrine" but may not be and still have faith in Christ? It seems that this is speaking of doctrinal issues - "devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons through the insincerity of liars . . . who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received . . ." - teaching things contrary to THE doctrine -

Something to think about because if God says in certain scripture that we are sealed until the day of redemption and have a place reserved for us in heaven to an inheritance incorruptible and that we are already seated in heavenly places - then tells us that it is possible to lose that - what is in his promise - for what he tells us in one place is incorruptible but can be corrupted . .??????

 

[Angela53510]

You had to choose whether or not you accepted or denied Christ as the sacrifice for your sins. Make no mistake, you had to choose!

There was no choice involved. God called me, and the change was done. I never said a prayer, I did not get on my knees, I did not consult anyone. I just heard the voice of my Saviour calling and I left everything to find the pearl of great price. This was irrestible! I never said yes, it was already a done deal!

That is what gives me full assurance. Because I was not dependent upon a "choice" I made, but because of the calling of God, there was never doubt and always the knowledge of how real, how powerful and also how loving God is.

Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me!

PS. You can follow whatever false soteriology you want, but I am sticking to knowing Christ, and following him, not by anything I have done, including a choice, but because of the Holy Spirit that God placed in my heart the day HE saved me!

 

[Angela53510]

Really, this is where the essence of the whole debate lies.

If you make the choice yourself, then of course, you can make a choice and walk away from God. I would imagine that would be easy if you were depending upon yourself for your salvation rather than God.

If GOD chooses you, he also seals you, and holds you in his hand for the rest of eternity. You can't walk away from something you never did (choosing God) because God in in control of the whole process of salvation, from justification to sanctification to glorification.

I am so glad I don't have to make a choice to have or not have God's mercy, grace and faith. I can just get on with the journey of sanctification, and doing the will and the work of God. And waiting for the return of Christ!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Really, this is where the essence of the whole debate lies.

If you make the choice yourself, then of course, you can make a choice and walk away from God. I would imagine that would be easy if you were depending upon yourself for your salvation rather than God.

If GOD chooses you, he also seals you, and holds you in his hand for the rest of eternity. You can't walk away from something you never did (choosing God) because God in in control of the whole process of salvation, from justification to sanctification to glorification.

I am so glad I don't have to make a choice to have or not have God's mercy, grace and faith. I can just get on with the journey of sanctification, and doing the will and the work of God. And waiting for the return of Christ!

And here I disagree . . . "whosoever believes in him" - requires a decision which would require a "choice" - to believe or not to believe. The Holy Spirit can draw but the Holy Spirit can be "resisted" -Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51) God seals you after you have heard the word of truth and believed in him (Eph. 1:13) . . .

Of course this has no bearing on either one of us having faith in our Lord Jesus Christ - it does not deter from the fact that we are both born again and are sisters in Christ. It's like - some believe in the rapture, some do not . . . some believe in the manifestations of the gift of the Spirit, some do not - some would say that those who believe in the rapture are following "deceitful spirits and teachings of demons" or "silly myths" which would mean that they have "departed from the faith" . . . which has to do with doctrine. But for everyone's information - NONE of us have everything down pat!

No harm meant - just my sentiments . . . Love ya sis . . . PB

 

[Bookends]

And being "in Christ" is based on covenantal relationship, or behavior?

In my understanding, It's more like faith and belief (which is related to behavior), out of that comes the relationship and continued behavior modification. The unsaved Jews where broken off because of unbelief. The sign to the Jews (or any gentile) that they were in the Abrahamic covenant was via physical circumcision, which is a type. The anti-type to physical circumcision is the circumcision of the heart, which is the sign and requisite for a Christian. In order to have faith and belief, one must a change of heart first ( you can't have one without the other). How can you have faith without changing the way you believe about your spiritual (fallen) condition? This in which is a behavior modification.

Psalm 34:10;
The LORD is near to the brokenhearted And saves those who are crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:17;
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Joel 2:13;
And rend your heart and not your garments." Now return to the LORD your God, For He is gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness And relenting of evil.

 

[Bookends]

Actualy every one chose it, when they reject Christ. God sends no one to hell. they all send themselves there

For the rest. God saved us..

So God picks and chooses who gets saved, this is hardcore Calvinism. I didn't think you held that view EG. What you basically said here is that we chose hell, but we don't chose eternal life (Christ). God chooses us. Why doesn't God save everyone then EG? The bible certain says God wishes no one to perish.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Gnostic grace: Christ in you, the possession of glory
GOD's grace: Christ in you, the hope of glory

to whom God wanted to make known what [is] the glorious wealth of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, Colossians 1:27

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. Romans 8:24-25

In your patient endurance you will gain your souls. Luke 21:19

Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, in order that [after you] have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet ​“a very, very little [while], [and] the one who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul is not well pleased with him.” But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of [our] souls. Hebrews 10:35-39​

 

[fredoheaven]

The Bible says NO, because:

1 John 3:2 Who are KEPT BY the power of God through faith unto SALVATION. . .1 John 2:25 And this is the PROMISE that he hath promised us, even ETERNAL LIFE.

1 John 3:2 NOW are WE the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what WE shall be: but WE know that, when he shall appear, WE shall be like him;for WE shall see him as he is.

1 John 5:11 - 13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life . . .

[FONT=&quot]Jude 24 Now unto HIM THAT IS ABLE to KEEP YOU from FALLING .[/FONT]

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Gnostic grace: Christ in you, the possession of glory
GOD's grace: Christ in you, the hope of glory

to whom God wanted to make known what [is] the glorious wealth of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, Colossians 1:27

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. Romans 8:24-25
<snip>
​

So Gnosticism is having assurance in eternal life? the "hope" of glory - elipis -

1. expectation of evil, fear
   
2. expectation of good, hope
   
   
   1. in the Christian sense
      
      1. joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
         
3. on hope, in hope, having hope
   
   1. the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
      
   2. the thing hoped for
      

we are saved by hope and we do not see it yet for the day of redemption has not yet occurred . . .

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . . DONE DEAL - it is presented in the past tense to emphasize the surety of it taking place even though it hasn't happened yet.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled and unfading, kept in heaven for you . . . . Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you BELIEVE in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory . . .

Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. Hebrews 3:5,6 HOW can we "hold fast our confidence" and "our boasting in our hope" - if it is not sure?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've thought of this too and it cemented my belief that since Jesus has saved us and bought us with a price., regenerated us., gave us a new birth...that we have been transformed from death unto life, and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, no matter what the world throws our way, we cannot be lost again.

Just think of how complicated the human brain is.. have you ever been under anesthesia and they told you that while you were under you talked a lot but you couldn't imagine you would have said those things? Or been half asleep and half awake and not known what was real and what was a dream?

And what about mental illnesses and how people are totally convinced of something that is not there OR there, and they deny it?

For those and so many more reasons shows me how extremely important it was for Jesus to give us that assurance and security that no one and no thing can snatch us out of His hand., We can't always rely on our own minds., Elderly people who don't remember who they are or what to do, even forgetting how to eat.

We need a Savior that saves and keeps us.

One of the most dangerous places a true child of God can ever be, is to think his or her salvation is not secure in Christ. Once that thought gets in their, Satan is going to send his whole army and attack that thought, in hopes of taking another child of God out of the conflict..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So God picks and chooses who gets saved, this is hardcore Calvinism. I didn't think you held that view EG. What you basically said here is that we chose hell, but we don't chose eternal life (Christ). God chooses us. Why doesn't God save everyone then EG? The bible certain says God wishes no one to perish.

I said God saved us, I never said God chose us..

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree EG..

..sometimes I look at it this way..I was born in the flesh....can I go back and renounce the fact that I have been born?...no...I believe it's the same with being born-again with the incorruptible word of God...I cannot be "unborn"....especially since it is His life that is in us.

One of the most dangerous places a true child of God can ever be, is to think his or her salvation is not secure in Christ. Once that thought gets in their, Satan is going to send his whole army and attack that thought, in hopes of taking another child of God out of the conflict..

 

[Bookends]

I said God saved us, I never said God chose us..

You said it without saying the actual words by stating people choose hell but God saved us. You said it by implication, or contradiction and without clarity. Just did not make sense to me.

We have to understand what Paul means when he said we are saved by grace alone. Paul doesn't mean that God's grace alone saves us, because if was absolutely true everyone would be saved regardless of their choice. This would be universalism, but we know Paul isn't saying making a cast for unversalism for in other places Paul says we must be in Christ, in other words, we have to choose Him. What does Paul mean then when he says we are saved my Grace alone? Well, he must mean by no other means are we saved but through Christ, God's free gift to humanity. We can't be saved any other way - religion. There is another component for one to be saved that goes along with this, God's redemption plan, and that's our belief and faith in that one "only way."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said it without saying the actual words by stating people choose hell but God saved us. You said it by implication, or contradiction and without clarity. Just did not make sense to me.

Well if it did I am sorry, But what I fear is you like so many want to look for key words. and assume you know what others believe based on certain things they say.

My point was, and still is, People go to hell by choice, for the rest of us, God saved us (because we can not save ourselves. Not because of some fatalistic calvanistic view that God chose me and not them)

We have to understand what Paul means when he said we are saved by grace alone. Paul doesn't mean that God's grace alone saves us, because if was absolutely true everyone would be saved regardless of their choice. This would be universalism, but we know Paul isn't saying making a cast for unversalism for in other places Paul says we must be in Christ, in other words, we have to choose Him. What does Paul mean then when he says we are saved my Grace alone? Well, he must mean by no other means are we saved but through Christ, God's free gift to humanity. We can't be saved any other way - religion. There is another component for one to be saved that goes along with this, God's redemption plan, and that's our belief and faith in that one "only way."

Grace THROUGH faith.

He who believes (has true saving faith) is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already, because they have rejected Gods provision (have not believed)

There is no middle ground, Your not condemned, (saved forever, have eternal life) or your in a state of condemnation and have to repent and trust God before it is too late.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree EG..

..sometimes I look at it this way..I was born in the flesh....can I go back and renounce the fact that I have been born?...no...I believe it's the same with being born-again with the incorruptible word of God...I cannot be "unborn"....especially since it is His life that is in us.

That's what the gnostics believed.

"For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, [the gnostics] maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which [the gnostics] mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. ... so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance (new birth), whatever the material actions (conduct) in which they may be involved". ​

 

[Grace777x70]

so these gnostics believed that when people are born-again in Christ....they are sealed with the Holy Spirit...and that Jesus said.." No one can pluck them out of My hands....and no one can pluck them out of My Father's hands.."..the gnostics believe in what Jesus said was true and that He wasn't a liar?.......they sound almost Christian like eh?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

That's what the gnostics believed.

"For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, [the gnostics] maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which [the gnostics] mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. ... so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance (new birth), whatever the material actions (conduct) in which they may be involved". ​

Gnostic or not - His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self control and self control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:3-8

So, what exactly does this mean? since you have been born again, not of perishable seed (flesh - corruptible), but of imperishable seed (spirit - incorruptible), through (by) the living and abiding word of God . . . parenthesis mine . . .

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9) . . . See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God and SO WE ARE. (1 John 3:1)

What is being said is that God gives us the gift of holy Spirit - he creates a new creation in us BUT he will uncreate that new creation, he will remove the gift he has given . . . when we do not walk perfectly!