ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, HYPER GRACE, ETERNAL SECURITY = FALSE DOCTRINE PROVEN!

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So, I probably needed to know that before hand, but could you elaborate on what you said that - about Gnostic Grace

Sure.

According to Irenaeus, the gnostics believed that they had become spiritual beings by virtue of special knowledge (new birth), and that their nature could not be corrupted or lost by anything they did, because it was their own special possession and the material world was immaterial (sorry, I couldn't resist).

For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, [the gnostics] maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which [the gnostics] mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. ... so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.

...

And committing many other abominations and impieties, [the gnostics] run us [Christians] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while [the gnostics] highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.​

 

[Cee]

We are not another. We are One with Him. John 17:22

Now the Lord says - I will not share my Glory - My Glory I will give to no one else

Are we referring to Holiness or Glory in a believer?

Reflecting the Glory of God - we beheld his Glory

 

[sydlit]

Is Jesus God??

*just an aside...The post, 'Is Jesus God?' was post #666. There's that loser again, questioning the the sovereignty of our Lord and Saviour Jesus. Lol.
(Not you, FreeNChrist, just pointing out the irony of the timing)

 

[thecreationtutor]

We are not another. We are One with Him. John 17:22

Are we sure about that? My actions, and motives are not always pure, and one with His - there will be a day when that is completely true, however we do live in the dynamic of warring with the flesh currently. When we are in step with the Spirit - sure

 

[FreeNChrist]

*just an aside...The post, 'Is Jesus God?' was post #666. There's that loser again, questioning the the sovereignty of our Lord and Saviour Jesus. Lol.
(Not you, FreeNChrist, just pointing out the irony of the timing)

Ironic indeed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So then do you have it or don't you? (Drumroll please.......)

No, my body hasn't been redeemed yet. Neither has yours.

Not only [this], but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [while we] await eagerly [our] adoption, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await [it] eagerly with patient endurance. Romans 8:23-25​

 

[thecreationtutor]

No, my body hasn't been redeemed yet. Neither has yours.

Not only [this], but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [while we] await eagerly [our] adoption, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await [it] eagerly with patient endurance. Romans 8:23-25​

So what has been redeemed then?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So what has been redeemed then?

Our spirit so far. Our minds are being renewed in that spirit, and at the consummation, we will be fully redeemed and glorified.

 

[Cee]

I need to comment on this...

"And committing many other abominations and impieties, [the gnostics] run us [Christians] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while [the gnostics] highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them."

1. Modern Grace as some call it doesn't run Christians down.
2. Gnostics said THEY WERE PERFECT (in Spirit) and ELECT (Chosen), Modern Grace says YOU ARE PERFECT (In Spirit) and ELECT TOO.
3. Gnostics believed they had special "knowledge" or "gnosis" that made them perfect that no one else had, and they were taught it in secret by the apostles. Modern Grace does not believe any of this.
4. Modern Grace says the knowledge you need is Christ in you and who you really are in Christ.
5. Paul said, I sought to know nothing, but Christ and Him crucified among you.
6. Paul said, I have not yet "obtained", but strive for what Christ laid ahold of for me... This is who you are now in Christ.
7. That's why Scripture says you will know Him as you are known, and looking at Him, is looking as if in a mirror, being transformed from glory to glory, and says being renewed in the spirit of your minds, is seeing who you are as a new creation.
8. Modern Grace uses plain Scripture not "secret teaching".
9. Modern Grace does not teach that it will be taken away from other Christians who do not understand their identity. This is fear based. And is not what Modern Grace teaches.
10. Modern Grace does not teach grace is their own "special possession". It teaches that it is OUR special possession.

You are completely misrepresenting Modern Grace with your comparisons. Just know that for the next time you choose to compare the two.

C.

Sure.

According to Irenaeus, the gnostics believed that they had become spiritual beings by virtue of special knowledge (new birth), and that their nature could not be corrupted or lost by anything they did, because it was their own special possession and the material world was immaterial (sorry, I couldn't resist).

For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, [the gnostics] maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which [the gnostics] mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. ... so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.

...

And committing many other abominations and impieties, [the gnostics] run us [Christians] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while [the gnostics] highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.
​

 

[sydlit]

No, my body hasn't been redeemed yet. Neither has yours.

Not only [this], but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [while we] await eagerly [our] adoption, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await [it] eagerly with patient endurance. Romans 8:23-25​

That wasn't the question.
Don't go turning typical liberal on us and twisting the truth.
The O P says it can PROVE that Once Saved Always Saved, and Eternal Security is not true. The question to you is, Do you HAVE, present possession, Eternal Life?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We are not another. We are One with Him. John 17:22

Are we sure about that? My actions, and motives are not always pure, and one with His - there will be a day when that is completely true, however we do live in the dynamic of warring with the flesh currently. When we are in step with the Spirit - sure

Cee's comment reflects the neo-gnostic influence of the new.modern.hyper grace mvmt, which essentially denies the existence of the old man and only identifies with the new creation. All things are new. Practitioners believe themselves to be spiritual beings joined in a mysterious conjunction with grace that they have as their own special possession that cannot be taken away from them no matter what they do. It's an identity faith that eschews any need or worth of good works, apart from whatever beneficial influence those works might have in this world.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That wasn't the question.
Don't go turning typical liberal on us and twisting the truth.
The O P says it can PROVE that Once Saved Always Saved, and Eternal Security is not true. The question to you is, Do you HAVE, present possession, Eternal Life?

How could he believe it? Eternal life is a quality of life, the quality of life inherent in God alone. If you deny that Jesus is God, then of course you will not understand that we have eternal life because Christ in us is the source of eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I haven't said anything about Irenaeus apart from what he wrote about the gnostics, and that he was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.

Every argument is you make is the gnostics this, and the gnostics that. You have gone so anti gnostic, you refuse to listen to anything else..

And you just stated you got your info from Irenaeus, And when I confronted you a week ago about hi, You admitted he was a false teacher.

So you just lied. Or forgot

And you are doing the very thing I just accused you off.


you are losing credability my friend..

 

[Grace777x70]

This is why some people are wondering if you are saved..you keep saying the old man is still here....the "old man" is a goner if you are saved...he is dead, dead, dead. How many times have we put up the scriptures..many of them that prove our "old man" died with Christ..we were crucified with Him..If we died with Him we shall be raised with Him..

Without "knowing" that the old man is dead..it is impossible to even begin the new creation in Chjrist that we are,.,and how we are not enslaved to sin anymore....it is impossible to know about how " we live in Him"

Romans 6:5-8 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That wasn't the question.
Don't go turning typical liberal on us and twisting the truth.
The O P says it can PROVE that Once Saved Always Saved, and Eternal Security is not true. The question to you is, Do you HAVE, present possession, Eternal Life?

Yes, I do have the firstfruits of eternal life, but do not yet have the fullness. Neither do you.

Not only [this], but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [while we] await eagerly [our] adoption, the redemption of our body. For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we await [it] eagerly with patient endurance. Romans 8:23-25​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Cee's comment reflects the neo-gnostic influence of the new.modern.hyper grace mvmt, which essentially denies the existence of the old man and only identifies with the new creation. All things are new. Practitioners believe themselves to be spiritual beings joined in a mysterious conjunction with grace that they have as their own special possession that cannot be taken away from them no matter what they do. It's an identity faith that eschews any need or worth of good works, apart from whatever beneficial influence those works might have in this world.

I rest my case.

This person is not judging us based on scripture. But based on what some man almost 2000 years ago said these gnostics believed.

SMH

 

[Grace777x70]

The habits and ways of thinking of the "old man" are still in our minds and flesh but that's why we renew our minds to the reality of Christ being in us..about the new creation in Christ....how that the Lord through the Holy Spirit has created in our new , inner man in righteousness and holiness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

]Every argument is you make is the gnostics this, and the gnostics that. You have gone so anti gnostic, you refuse to listen to anything else..

And you just stated you got your info from Irenaeus, And when I confronted you a week ago about hi, You admitted he was a false teacher.

So you just lied. Or forgot

And you are doing the very thing I just accused you off.


you are losing credability my friend.. [/B]

No I didn't.

 

[Cee]

Are we sure about that? My actions, and motives are not always pure, and one with His - there will be a day when that is completely true, however we do live in the dynamic of warring with the flesh currently. When we are in step with the Spirit - sure

I'm sure.

This is so important to get clear on... So I'll spell it out in detail for you and other people, hope this is clear.

"In Christ". This is actually a sign of our oneness with Him. This is critical to understand.

John 17:20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Ephesians 5:31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

Colossians 2:[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Have you ever wondered why Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world?

Ephesians 1:4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
- You were in Him even before you knew Him, but that's a much longer topic.

Matt 25:39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
- Christ shows that He identifies us as Him, we are not another.

As you read Scripture look for "In Christ", "Through Christ", and "By Christ" these are showing you who you now are in Him. They are hidden from us though if we don't understand that we died and are now made fully alive to Him.

Oh and in regards to your motives, behaviors, and actions. That's because you're still discovering who you now are in Him. Let me show you what the 5 fold ministry is for...

Ephesians 4:11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

You're still growing up into Him.

14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

1 Co 8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Really read this Scripture here and ask Holy Spirit to show you the truth of it:

1 John 3:2Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears[SUP]a[/SUP] we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
- Remember this: Christ is LIFE, there is no life apart from Him. This is also how you know you are united with Him. Notice that this says murderers don't have eternal life in them. Not they don't anymore, but never did. Really seek Holy Spirit on this.

1 Co 6:17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

C.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No I didn't.

Oh so now your backtracking.

You just lost more..

You want to argue against gnosticism/ Please open a thread. Maybe some people will want to argue with you against them.

This is a thread about eternal security, not gnisticism. So please leave them out of your argumments, Your condemning people using gnostic arguments you got from some man who has been dead for almost 2000 years now. and is not even inspired by God..