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I can get different things out of that verse if I read it by itself....scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place...but I know the other verses around it so I would be bias.
This sums up what I believe in reference to 1 John 1:7
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we ( believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"
(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.
"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you ( unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).
This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ. Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )
"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).
John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).
"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).
In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.
"If we ( believers ) walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).
In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin. Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins.We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.
"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).
John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives. He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.
However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness. In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!
"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).
Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.
The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.
This sums up what I believe in reference to 1 John 1:7
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we ( believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"
(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.
"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you ( unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).
This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ. Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )
"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).
John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).
"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).
In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.
"If we ( believers ) walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).
In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin. Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins.We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.
"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).
John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives. He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.
However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness. In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!
"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).
Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.
The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.
Why do I think 1 John 1 is addressed to unbelievers?
To answer this question we need to look at the “you” that John singles out in verse 3. Who are “the you”? What are they like? Well in the following verses John gives us a very comprehensive description. Let us consider how this group – whoever they are – compares with the typical Christian. See if you can spot the difference…
As you can see, the group on the left is nothing like the group on the right. Indeed, the people in this group are the exact opposite of what the Bible describes as a Christian. Hmm. I guess that means that they – those John is addressing in chapter 1 – are not Christians. They are not the “dear children” John begins to address in chapter 2.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Verse[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]John’s audience (the “You”)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Christians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]They do not have fellowship (koinonia) with us as we have with God; they alienated from the life of God (Eph 4:18)[/TD]
[TD]We have fellowship (koinonia) with Christ and all the members of His body (1 Cor 1:9, 1 Jn 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD]They need to hear the message that John has heard[/TD]
[TD]We have heard and believed the message (Rom 10:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They walk in darkness[/TD]
[TD]We walk in the light (Joh 8:12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They lie and do not live by the truth[/TD]
[TD]We have met the Truth and walk in the truth (Joh 14:6, 2 Jn 1:4)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all sin[/TD]
[TD]We have been purified from all sin (Heb 10:10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD]They are deceived[/TD]
[TD]We are filled with the Spirit of Truth (Jn 14:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all unrighteousness[/TD]
[TD]We have received the gift of forgiveness and have been made righteous (1 Cor 6:11, Eph 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]They are calling God a liar[/TD]
[TD]We agree with God (Rom 10:9-13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]God’s word has no place in their lives[/TD]
[TD]His word lives in us (1 Th 2:13)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
To answer this question we need to look at the “you” that John singles out in verse 3. Who are “the you”? What are they like? Well in the following verses John gives us a very comprehensive description. Let us consider how this group – whoever they are – compares with the typical Christian. See if you can spot the difference…
As you can see, the group on the left is nothing like the group on the right. Indeed, the people in this group are the exact opposite of what the Bible describes as a Christian. Hmm. I guess that means that they – those John is addressing in chapter 1 – are not Christians. They are not the “dear children” John begins to address in chapter 2.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Verse[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]John’s audience (the “You”)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Christians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]They do not have fellowship (koinonia) with us as we have with God; they alienated from the life of God (Eph 4:18)[/TD]
[TD]We have fellowship (koinonia) with Christ and all the members of His body (1 Cor 1:9, 1 Jn 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD]They need to hear the message that John has heard[/TD]
[TD]We have heard and believed the message (Rom 10:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They walk in darkness[/TD]
[TD]We walk in the light (Joh 8:12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They lie and do not live by the truth[/TD]
[TD]We have met the Truth and walk in the truth (Joh 14:6, 2 Jn 1:4)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all sin[/TD]
[TD]We have been purified from all sin (Heb 10:10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD]They are deceived[/TD]
[TD]We are filled with the Spirit of Truth (Jn 14:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all unrighteousness[/TD]
[TD]We have received the gift of forgiveness and have been made righteous (1 Cor 6:11, Eph 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]They are calling God a liar[/TD]
[TD]We agree with God (Rom 10:9-13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]God’s word has no place in their lives[/TD]
[TD]His word lives in us (1 Th 2:13)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
D
1 JOHN 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Grace777x70, I think John was speaking from a fallen humans stand point when he said, "if we say we have no sin". John said he was writing these things that your joy might be full in 1 JOHN 1:3, we know that unbelievers can't have fullness of joy.
I respect your prospective as this essentially a non-essential
Happy New Year!
[SUP]3 [/SUP]that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Grace777x70, I think John was speaking from a fallen humans stand point when he said, "if we say we have no sin". John said he was writing these things that your joy might be full in 1 JOHN 1:3, we know that unbelievers can't have fullness of joy.
I respect your prospective as this essentially a non-essential
Happy New Year!
I understand where you are coming from...I see it differently somewhat....but as you say...most likely a non-essential..
we ( John the believer ) have seen and heard we declare to you ( unbeliever ), that you ( unbeliever ) also may have fellowship with us;..and Father and Son ( that us believers have now )
For the joy part... unbelievers do have some joy from time to time..albeit somewhat fleeting and shallow...
When unbelievers get saved they experience the full joy that is in our salvation in Christ. John wanted them unbelievers to have the fullness of joy that we have in the Lord....experience the fullness of joy that there is in Him.....hence the "so that your joy may be full".
I agree with you in this.... I think John was speaking from a fallen humans stand point when he said, "if we say we have no sin". ( the all-encompassing "we" )
Have a Happy New Year too! We are going to have a great year of growing in our Lord this year!
we ( John the believer ) have seen and heard we declare to you ( unbeliever ), that you ( unbeliever ) also may have fellowship with us;..and Father and Son ( that us believers have now )
For the joy part... unbelievers do have some joy from time to time..albeit somewhat fleeting and shallow...
When unbelievers get saved they experience the full joy that is in our salvation in Christ. John wanted them unbelievers to have the fullness of joy that we have in the Lord....experience the fullness of joy that there is in Him.....hence the "so that your joy may be full".
I agree with you in this.... I think John was speaking from a fallen humans stand point when he said, "if we say we have no sin". ( the all-encompassing "we" )
Have a Happy New Year too! We are going to have a great year of growing in our Lord this year!
1 JOHN 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Grace777x70, I think John was speaking from a fallen humans stand point when he said, "if we say we have no sin". John said he was writing these things that your joy might be full in 1 JOHN 1:3, we know that unbelievers can't have fullness of joy.
I respect your prospective as this essentially a non-essential
Happy New Year!
[SUP]3 [/SUP]that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Grace777x70, I think John was speaking from a fallen humans stand point when he said, "if we say we have no sin". John said he was writing these things that your joy might be full in 1 JOHN 1:3, we know that unbelievers can't have fullness of joy.
I respect your prospective as this essentially a non-essential
Happy New Year!
Basically the opposite of what we see here...
Genesis 3:8 KJVS
[8] And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
As we fess up His Blood cleanses our conscience and we have boldness to draw near in fellowship . Sin distorts our image of God as someone to fear and avoid.
Genesis 3:8 KJVS
[8] And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
As we fess up His Blood cleanses our conscience and we have boldness to draw near in fellowship . Sin distorts our image of God as someone to fear and avoid.
F
I do see several truths there. Believers are those who walk in the light, and because we do we have fellowship with each other and are those for whom the blood of Jesus purifies from ALL sin. And, reading between the lines; unbelievers, who do not walk in the light, do not have fellowship with believers, and all their sins are not purified by the blood of Jesus.
Amen! We need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
Believers are definitely in the light. The scriptures are clear on this.
Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light ( we should be walking out who we are in the light..but it's through Him we do that. )
Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light ( we should be walking out who we are in the light..but it's through Him we do that. )
Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
F
Thats right. Its contrasting the children of the light, the believers, with the children of the dark, the lost.
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light" Ephesians 5:8
"You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."
1 Thessalonians 5:5
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light" Ephesians 5:8
"You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."
1 Thessalonians 5:5
We are light in the Lord! His life in us is that light shining out!. We are new creations now in Christ. We are in Christ!
John 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
John 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
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Positionally, yes. Experiential abiding in the light requires obedience. No disobedience is done in the light, but in darkness. Scripture is clear on this. The believer who hates his brother or doesn't speak the truth isn't abiding in the light.
The one who loves his brother resides in the light, and [there] is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10
So..according to your theory..we go in and out of Light..in and out of being in Christ...so do we go from sheep to goats too..then back to a sheep..etc..are there "shoats"?
There is no positionally or experientially here. That's like saying He has made you righteous but you have to be righteous in order to remain righteous..that's is just a bunch of made up words ( positionally and experientially ) for their "works salvation mentality"....
Preach Jesus and the grace that is in Him and people will walk in who they are from the life that is in them in Christ.
There is no positionally or experientially here. That's like saying He has made you righteous but you have to be righteous in order to remain righteous..that's is just a bunch of made up words ( positionally and experientially ) for their "works salvation mentality"....
Preach Jesus and the grace that is in Him and people will walk in who they are from the life that is in them in Christ.