-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This questions shows an unrenewed mind. The question isn't why "can't" I. It's why would I? God's ways are best. The things sin has tried to convince me I need from it are lies, I get them all from Him. I don't need to puff myself up or put people down because I know He loves me. I don't need to covet because He is my provider. I don't need to lie because He is my protector. I don't need to commit adultery because He is my intimacy and I don't desire to do these things. This is what the cross did. What the law COULD NOT do.
C.
C.
Walking in the light.
For me one of the greatest passages of scripture is the sermon on the mount. It is the laying down of reality for the follower of Jesus. He says who are blessed and which behaviour or pursuit will receive which result.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"
Much of the sermon on the mount is difficult because some meanings of the words could be taken as impossible.
Being "perfect" for instance. But the context is important. The subject is about loving your enemies, your friends, understanding and wishing the best for all concerned.
But when we talk about perfect we mean without fault or problem in a particular degree, to the highest standard that is hardly ever met, only very occasionally. So our use of perfect is 99% doomed to failure, but that is not what Jesus means.
He is saying we should learn to look for the good and best in everyone, and hope it works out that way.
Now if a christian takes this teaching before the cross and excludes it, they are excluding the gospel itself.
They are building their house on sand, as Jesus says. There is no excuse, and to hold such a teaching is heresy and departing from Jesus. Anyone who does not see this has not truly met Jesus.
Jesus is the reality speaker, who cuts us to the quick, who shows up our failings but puts out a helping hand to lift us up.
For me one of the greatest passages of scripture is the sermon on the mount. It is the laying down of reality for the follower of Jesus. He says who are blessed and which behaviour or pursuit will receive which result.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"
Much of the sermon on the mount is difficult because some meanings of the words could be taken as impossible.
Being "perfect" for instance. But the context is important. The subject is about loving your enemies, your friends, understanding and wishing the best for all concerned.
But when we talk about perfect we mean without fault or problem in a particular degree, to the highest standard that is hardly ever met, only very occasionally. So our use of perfect is 99% doomed to failure, but that is not what Jesus means.
He is saying we should learn to look for the good and best in everyone, and hope it works out that way.
Now if a christian takes this teaching before the cross and excludes it, they are excluding the gospel itself.
They are building their house on sand, as Jesus says. There is no excuse, and to hold such a teaching is heresy and departing from Jesus. Anyone who does not see this has not truly met Jesus.
Jesus is the reality speaker, who cuts us to the quick, who shows up our failings but puts out a helping hand to lift us up.
Scripture isn't saying: you don't do these things, so try really hard not to do them. It's laying a line saying, look this is who you are. These things you're doing are not you. So go back to who you are.
Let me explain the flaw in this reasoning: If you see people as "bad" you tell them they need to "good works" to be good. But this is the lie of the enemy. You have to "eat from the tree of good/evil" to be like God. What was the lie? That they weren't already like God.
This pattern causes people to LOOK AT THEMSELVES, instead of at HIM. This is called condemnation. It causes people to hide from God until they can "fix" themselves this is religion. And Jesus smashed religion. So we could have relationship.
Here's a clue if you're causing people to grow in Christ or not. Are your words revealing Him or are they uncovering them? As soon as they see themselves as "not grace covered" the next thing you will see is the old man rear it's head. Because now they are trying to justify themselves instead of allowing Him to.
This is a broken methodology that causes people to be ensnared in lies. And unfortunately many people are still in this pattern of thinking. This is the pattern of the world. It is the way that appears right to a man. That we can DO something to BE something. This is a lie. This lie is what caused the Pharisees to focus on the law and miss Christ.
Why are people still in this lie? Because we have not followed Paul when he said above all desire prophesy. This is what brings us to truly walking in the light.
It is the height of pride to think we can ever do something to make ourselves worthy to God. Or to think we can do something to be holy or righteous. The gift of God is that no man could boast. The Scriptures do say what about works? But they say this because works reveal who you have been transformed into, His Image.
And when you don't see people as new creations is that advancing His agenda or the enemies?
C.
Let me explain the flaw in this reasoning: If you see people as "bad" you tell them they need to "good works" to be good. But this is the lie of the enemy. You have to "eat from the tree of good/evil" to be like God. What was the lie? That they weren't already like God.
This pattern causes people to LOOK AT THEMSELVES, instead of at HIM. This is called condemnation. It causes people to hide from God until they can "fix" themselves this is religion. And Jesus smashed religion. So we could have relationship.
Here's a clue if you're causing people to grow in Christ or not. Are your words revealing Him or are they uncovering them? As soon as they see themselves as "not grace covered" the next thing you will see is the old man rear it's head. Because now they are trying to justify themselves instead of allowing Him to.
This is a broken methodology that causes people to be ensnared in lies. And unfortunately many people are still in this pattern of thinking. This is the pattern of the world. It is the way that appears right to a man. That we can DO something to BE something. This is a lie. This lie is what caused the Pharisees to focus on the law and miss Christ.
Why are people still in this lie? Because we have not followed Paul when he said above all desire prophesy. This is what brings us to truly walking in the light.
It is the height of pride to think we can ever do something to make ourselves worthy to God. Or to think we can do something to be holy or righteous. The gift of God is that no man could boast. The Scriptures do say what about works? But they say this because works reveal who you have been transformed into, His Image.
And when you don't see people as new creations is that advancing His agenda or the enemies?
C.
Reading these sentences it is saying not being a hyper-grace follower is not knowing Jesus, it is a religion and not real faith.
That is condemnation. Worse still it is going against Jesus's teaching about judgmentalism.
It is as plain as day if you are not interested in diagnosing sin and dealing with relationship problems, you are not sane or walking in the light. Any parent who has two children fighting, gets them to face the problem, say sorry and carry on.
As they get older you work through the emotions and possible causes to try and set the scene and mitigate the hurt and miss-understanding. Without doing this, things stay hidden, relationships break down, and families split up.
A simple parable would be getting a flat tyre on a bicycle. It needs to be addressed or the tyre is damaged, and the wheel and the bike becomes unusable. The rider has to do the investigation and repair, no magic 3rd party appears and sorts it out. Now if you live in the self righteous world where sin is denied and never dealt with, that is what happens, whether it is because everyone is perfect or it is works to face sin, the outcome is still the same.
That is condemnation. Worse still it is going against Jesus's teaching about judgmentalism.
It is as plain as day if you are not interested in diagnosing sin and dealing with relationship problems, you are not sane or walking in the light. Any parent who has two children fighting, gets them to face the problem, say sorry and carry on.
As they get older you work through the emotions and possible causes to try and set the scene and mitigate the hurt and miss-understanding. Without doing this, things stay hidden, relationships break down, and families split up.
A simple parable would be getting a flat tyre on a bicycle. It needs to be addressed or the tyre is damaged, and the wheel and the bike becomes unusable. The rider has to do the investigation and repair, no magic 3rd party appears and sorts it out. Now if you live in the self righteous world where sin is denied and never dealt with, that is what happens, whether it is because everyone is perfect or it is works to face sin, the outcome is still the same.
F
Ummmmm, no. Perfect means perfect. You left off the qualifier that clarifies it for any such as yourself, "as perfect as the Father in heaven".
What Jesus is doing is burying anyone who might think they have what it takes to make themselves acceptable to a perfect God. And pointing you to Himself, the Perfect One, as your only hope.
I don't know what religious background you came from. Maybe that's what you experienced. But what you're teaching is just as bad as that.
The fact is that we are 'bad' and that's not a problem because of grace. Grace overlooks our 'badness', and forgives us so that we are able to have a forgiving heart and do the will of GOD. We don't have to do anything to try to be good because GOD accepts us for who we are, and enables us in the power of his spirit to overcome our 'badness' and walk in truth and love.
The fact is that we are 'bad' and that's not a problem because of grace. Grace overlooks our 'badness', and forgives us so that we are able to have a forgiving heart and do the will of GOD. We don't have to do anything to try to be good because GOD accepts us for who we are, and enables us in the power of his spirit to overcome our 'badness' and walk in truth and love.
You have made a jump that is wrong. The law has not been abolished just condemnation under the law, if you are under Christ. Jesus fulfilled the law, was the reason the law was given, to show the power of righteousness is Jesus and love, but not in your single interpretation concept.
Jesus walked in righteousness because God is love, and His heart burns for the best in everybody. He did not sin, because to do so would contradict His nature. Now we know we struggle walking in this love working in our hearts because we stumble.
You want the emphasis to be on judgement and condemnation or lack of it, but I want the emphasis on holiness and walking in righteousness. In my language this means walking in love, the love Jesus puts in our hearts. It is a walk of choice, of sacrifice, of putting Jesus and His concerns first.
You want to tell me a concept as if you have great authority. Who gave you such authority? How can you contradict Jesus's words on obedience and following Him. Have you never seen two animals yoked together. One leads the other follows but it is definitely a choice which sometimes fails.
Now I was never in the legalism and self condemnation you have, because I know Jesus and His nature, or you would say grace. But equally I know why marriage and sex within marriage is sacred, and why commitment matters and what intimacy really is, at the deepest levels. The way you talk is as if this is minor, and something to be dismissed simply, not acknowledging the sinful hearts hates the law and righteousness, because it convicts the heart of evil. So every time someone overthrows righteousness for evil, they are not a friend of God but His enemy.
Look at scripture. People did what was right in their own eyes. The law exists to help measure the divide between mans morality and Gods. There is always a tension, but that is our walk.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Heb 10:17
Words matter, Jesus's words the most. When I was younger I did not understand this, now I do.
Jesus walked in righteousness because God is love, and His heart burns for the best in everybody. He did not sin, because to do so would contradict His nature. Now we know we struggle walking in this love working in our hearts because we stumble.
You want the emphasis to be on judgement and condemnation or lack of it, but I want the emphasis on holiness and walking in righteousness. In my language this means walking in love, the love Jesus puts in our hearts. It is a walk of choice, of sacrifice, of putting Jesus and His concerns first.
You want to tell me a concept as if you have great authority. Who gave you such authority? How can you contradict Jesus's words on obedience and following Him. Have you never seen two animals yoked together. One leads the other follows but it is definitely a choice which sometimes fails.
Now I was never in the legalism and self condemnation you have, because I know Jesus and His nature, or you would say grace. But equally I know why marriage and sex within marriage is sacred, and why commitment matters and what intimacy really is, at the deepest levels. The way you talk is as if this is minor, and something to be dismissed simply, not acknowledging the sinful hearts hates the law and righteousness, because it convicts the heart of evil. So every time someone overthrows righteousness for evil, they are not a friend of God but His enemy.
Look at scripture. People did what was right in their own eyes. The law exists to help measure the divide between mans morality and Gods. There is always a tension, but that is our walk.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Heb 10:17
Words matter, Jesus's words the most. When I was younger I did not understand this, now I do.
The Spirit enables us to walk in His goodness because He transformed us. We are joined into His Spirit now we live from the Spirit. This is the first key of understanding our new creation reality. When I see myself as God does, I live out of His grace not for His grace. I don't live for love, but from love. Not for victory, but from victory.
Why does Holy Spirit lives with us? Not because we are not holy, but because we are. We are a holy nation a royal priesthood seated in heavenly places. A new creation. These all point to present realities, not future ones.
Why does Holy Spirit lives with us? Not because we are not holy, but because we are. We are a holy nation a royal priesthood seated in heavenly places. A new creation. These all point to present realities, not future ones.
I made a wrong jump? The law has not been abolished?
2 Co 3:7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
Written on Stones? Check.
Given to Moses? Check.
Ministry of death? Check.
Brought to an end? Check.
What once had glory? Check.
Is no more? Check.
Please tell me what other jumps I made. I'm willing to show you Scripture like I always do when asked.
C.
2 Co 3:7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
Written on Stones? Check.
Given to Moses? Check.
Ministry of death? Check.
Brought to an end? Check.
What once had glory? Check.
Is no more? Check.
Please tell me what other jumps I made. I'm willing to show you Scripture like I always do when asked.
C.
Scripture tells us we have
1. A better covenant
2. A better promise
3. They looked forward to what we had
4. They waited to be able to partake in it
We walk in something FAR different. That's why we are new creations. Not old creations made kinda new. We are something even Adam didn't have. He walked with the Spirit of God, we are joined with Him.
C.
1. A better covenant
2. A better promise
3. They looked forward to what we had
4. They waited to be able to partake in it
We walk in something FAR different. That's why we are new creations. Not old creations made kinda new. We are something even Adam didn't have. He walked with the Spirit of God, we are joined with Him.
C.
Simple observation. Kenneth C is asking what stops a person from sinning if they no longer has a measure of what sin is or a boundary? It is a fair question. Like saying if there were no speed limits why would people drive slower in cities than on the big open roads in the countryside? Because of perceived risk.
An example of this happened in france. At week-ends tourists in the summer clogged the roads and everyone had to drive slowly because the roads were narrow. The locals often were so used to driving too fast because of little traffic, every week-end there were massive crashes. What changed things was when the police gave a massive fine for speeding, and restricted the top speed on the most clogged roads. The law may not be binding as in punishments, but it still has a role.
So it is odd to accuse me of swallowing a camel yet you are suggesting someone does not know Jesus because they ask a question? I question your discernment or understanding, and are a classic example of puffing yourself up above someone simply expounding scripture.
An example of this happened in france. At week-ends tourists in the summer clogged the roads and everyone had to drive slowly because the roads were narrow. The locals often were so used to driving too fast because of little traffic, every week-end there were massive crashes. What changed things was when the police gave a massive fine for speeding, and restricted the top speed on the most clogged roads. The law may not be binding as in punishments, but it still has a role.
So it is odd to accuse me of swallowing a camel yet you are suggesting someone does not know Jesus because they ask a question? I question your discernment or understanding, and are a classic example of puffing yourself up above someone simply expounding scripture.
The day we embrace and understand the gift of righteousness we will be weaned from milk. ( Heb 5:13-14 ) At this point the law and self-effort will be cast out of our lives. Gen 21:8-10
What we believe about our identity will determine our behavior.
The day we start protecting our true identity in Christ from our enemy - the accuser of the brethren - is the day our behavior will change to reflect who we really are in Christ. This is all from grace through faith. The gospel of the grace of Christ is all about faith righteousness.
A righteous lifestyle or holy living will not produce righteousness or holiness. BUT righteousness and holiness will bear the fruit of righteous and holy living.
Once we realize who we are in Christ - then we will bear fruit..it will be His fruit in us coming forth from His life..He is the Vine.
If we need to "do something" first in order for God to do something - then we are operating in the Old Covenant and not in the New Covenant.
What we believe about our identity will determine our behavior.
The day we start protecting our true identity in Christ from our enemy - the accuser of the brethren - is the day our behavior will change to reflect who we really are in Christ. This is all from grace through faith. The gospel of the grace of Christ is all about faith righteousness.
A righteous lifestyle or holy living will not produce righteousness or holiness. BUT righteousness and holiness will bear the fruit of righteous and holy living.
Once we realize who we are in Christ - then we will bear fruit..it will be His fruit in us coming forth from His life..He is the Vine.
If we need to "do something" first in order for God to do something - then we are operating in the Old Covenant and not in the New Covenant.
I didn't say he wasn't saved. I said his mind is not renewed in this way to the goodness and kindness of God. And let me ask you then the same question...
1. Why don't you murder?
2. Why don't you lie?
3. Why don't you commit adultery?
4. Why don't you covet?
5. How do you know you are saved?
Now let's see if your answer points to you or God.
What's your testimony?
C.
1. Why don't you murder?
2. Why don't you lie?
3. Why don't you commit adultery?
4. Why don't you covet?
5. How do you know you are saved?
Now let's see if your answer points to you or God.
What's your testimony?
C.
A better covenant than the old covenant. Keep in mind that Hebrews was written to Hebrews who had been under the old covenant. So the new covenant was something much better for them.
We are children of Abraham. We walk in the same faith he had. It's not something far different. It's the exact same thing.
We are children of Abraham. We walk in the same faith he had. It's not something far different. It's the exact same thing.
It is obvious your belief system is a different faith to the law and prophets and Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of what went before, not its abolition. Because He fulfilled the purpose he brought us into Gods people while not having to become Jews.
If you cannot call Moses, Elijah brothers, and see their words as that from the Lord, which speaks today as much as then, then you have missed what Jesus brought. This used to confuse me, but I now see the failure in mankind and also the key change needed. You have to choose to become something different and walk in it, yet you almost say this in walking in what you are as children of Christ, yet you deny the power of obedience. Until you forgive another for their sin against you, you do not know how much the hurt and pain hold you captive. Until you accept the forgiveness of Christ you do not know how much you need to be forgiven and how deeply it cost Him to go to the cross and suffer, to which we are also called to suffer on behalf of others.
If you cannot call Moses, Elijah brothers, and see their words as that from the Lord, which speaks today as much as then, then you have missed what Jesus brought. This used to confuse me, but I now see the failure in mankind and also the key change needed. You have to choose to become something different and walk in it, yet you almost say this in walking in what you are as children of Christ, yet you deny the power of obedience. Until you forgive another for their sin against you, you do not know how much the hurt and pain hold you captive. Until you accept the forgiveness of Christ you do not know how much you need to be forgiven and how deeply it cost Him to go to the cross and suffer, to which we are also called to suffer on behalf of others.
Yes the covenant is different. We are in agreement on that.
And let's see: can you agree that believers now are joined with the Spirit? And in the Old Covenant they were not? That's part of the Old Covenant because they had to go to the temple, but now we are the temple of God. This is the first building block.
And how about now we are called children of God? Able to call God "Abba" which is "Daddy". Would you agree they were not allowed to address God like this before Christ?
C.
And let's see: can you agree that believers now are joined with the Spirit? And in the Old Covenant they were not? That's part of the Old Covenant because they had to go to the temple, but now we are the temple of God. This is the first building block.
And how about now we are called children of God? Able to call God "Abba" which is "Daddy". Would you agree they were not allowed to address God like this before Christ?
C.
So you don't look to the law to uphold what you think is Gods Moral Standard?
Where do you find Gods Moral Standard written in the Bible?
None of that really matters.
Do we overcome by not doing those things?
No.
We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony.
What is our testimony?
That we are saved by Grace through faith and not by our work at the law.
Our testimony isn't that we have overcome by ceasing to do those things on your list.
Where do you find Gods Moral Standard written in the Bible?
None of that really matters.
Do we overcome by not doing those things?
No.
We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony.
What is our testimony?
That we are saved by Grace through faith and not by our work at the law.
Our testimony isn't that we have overcome by ceasing to do those things on your list.