What Happens To The Dead When They Die?

Euphemia · Jan 2, 2016

It happens when Jesus calls for His Bride. That happens at least seven years before He returns bodily with the Bride to the earth.

Amazingly, He is following after the pattern of the ancient Hebrew wedding model, where the groom would come by with a trumpet announcement to fetch his waiting bride at a moment unknown to her, and whisk her away to his father's home, prepared for her beforehand, to be married and to celebrate for seven days after which they emerge as a married couple and come forth into the community to establish their home.

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prove-all · Jan 2, 2016

Euphemia said:

then how do you explain "Lazarus and the Rich Man" ?

where they could talk and see each other , one was in torment wanting water.

- "Lazarus and the Rich Man" is a parable.

prove-all · Jan 2, 2016

Heaven Defined

“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” (Gen. 2:1).
This word heavens refers to two different heavens.

The first heaven consists of the Earth’s atmosphere. The second heaven is
the vast reaches of space beyond the atmosphere.

There is also a third heaven: the home of God. The Apostle Paul saw this “third heaven,”
where God’s throne is, in a vision (ii Cor. 12:1-2). This vision was so intensely realistic
that Paul was unable to tell if he was physically there, or if he was seeing it in his mind.

In Hebrews 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,” should be translated “through the heavens.”
We see that Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and outer space
—as He ascended to the third heaven.

John 3:13 reveals that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.

Certainly many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft
and other means, so this verse can only refer to the third heaven,
where the Almighty God resides.

Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven, which he did—but not to the third
heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.

Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been miraculously transported to
another location on Earth.

Heaven is not, as some believe, the future home of any man, righteous or not.
Revelation 5:10 shows that God’s saints will reign not in heaven but “on the earth.”

Revelation 21 and 22 describe the coming time when God the Father and heavenly
Jerusalem will come down to Earth after it has been purified. In other words, man
is not going to heaven—God is coming here!

jb · Jan 2, 2016

For those of you who are interested, you can find a few thoughts Here on death and eternal judgement...

prove-all · Jan 2, 2016

Hell Defined

The word hell is used in the New Testament as a translation
for three different Greek words: hades, tartaroo and gehenna.

Hades refers to a grave or pit, and has no connection to fire.
When a person dies, he or she goes to this hell, better known as the grave.

Jesus Christ Himself went there. In Acts 2:31 we read, “his soul was not left in hell
[but it did go there], neither his flesh did see corruption.” We can see here that this
word hell refers to the grave.

In Ecclesiastes 9:5, we learn that the dead know absolutely nothing:
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

It is as though the dead person is asleep in the grave, totally unaware of
everything. Ecclesiastes 3:19 shows that man dies just as the animals do.

The word hades is roughly equivalent to the word sheol in the Old Testament.
Sheol is the only word translated hell in the Old Testament.

The second word in the New Testament that is translated as hell is tartaroo.
This word is mentioned only once in Scripture: “For if God spared not the angels
that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment” (ii Peter 2:4).

Tartaroo is used only in reference to rebellious angels as a place of restraint.
Nowhere does the Bible mention human beings being placed in this hell. This tartaroo,
like hades, also makes no mention of fire; rather, it talks about chains of darkness.

At present, all of the dead—righteous men and sinners alike—are asleep in their graves
(sheol or hades) awaiting resurrection. The Bible shows that all who die

The question is not if a person will be resurrected, but when. So says the Bible:
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order” (i Cor. 15:22-23).

Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected. He is the “firstborn among many brethren”
(Rom. 8:29) and has made possible the resurrection of everyone who has ever lived.

skye51 · Jan 2, 2016

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Hosea 6:2

Ahwatukee · Jan 2, 2016

Scripture says:

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

Hello prove-all,

The rich man died and his spirit/soul went to Hades and as you can see from the excerpt above, he was in Hades and was in torment in flame. This is the problem with symbolizing or deeming scripture as being a parable, when God meant it to be literal. If you will just drop your pre-applied interpretation and read the event of the rich man and Lazarus at face value, then you will understand it the way that God meant it.

Scripture says:

"Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”Regarding the above, since we know that both Jesus and the man crucified with him both died before sunset, how could Jesus say to the man, "today you will be with me in paradise?" A person's spirit/soul must be conscious, aware and existing in order experience paradise. So, how is it possible for Jesus and the man crucified with him to experience paradise if both were sleeping in their graves? And what do you do with all of the scriptures that demonstrate conscious, awareness of the spirit/soul after death? My advice to you, is to let go of the false teachings of soul-sleep and take into consideration all of the scriptures that demonstrate the conscious, awareness of the spirit/soul after death. Don't just circumvent them to continue supporting soul-sleep, but pay attention to them.

What really amazes me is that, people always refer to this scripture in eccl.9:5 in support of the belief that they've adopted, while ignoring all of the NT scriptures that demonstrate the conscious, awareness of the soul/spirit after death. The reference to the dead knowing nothing, is in reference to the body only and not the soul/spirit. At the time of death, the spirit/soul departs from the body (2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:23, Rev.6:9-11) and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, where the body on the other hand is buried and decays. Whenever we see the reference to "Sleep" in scripture, it is always in reference to the body and not to the soul/spirit.

Regarding the above, tell that to the rich man who begged father Abraham to send Lazarus back to his father's house so that his five brothers would repent so that would not come to the same place of torment that he had. Also, you better tell Paul, because he said that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body was to be in the presence of the Lord. I honestly don't know why you ignore these scriptural facts.

sparkman · Jan 2, 2016

At least 3 of the people who respond to this thread (including the creator) are Seventh Day Adventists or Armstrongites. In fact, the creator is well known for posting Ellen G. White teachings verbatim and not acknowledging the source.

Both Armstrongites and SDAs hold the position of soul sleep and annihilationism, for similar reasons. Herbert Armstrong got a lot of his teachings from Church of God - Seventh Day. COG7 and SDAs share a common parent organization.

I held the same positions regarding annihilationism and soul sleep in the past as an Armstrongite. I am now an ordinary evangelical Christian.

From my understanding, SDAs deny that there is any spiritual component within unconverted man. In other words, an unconverted person has no spiritual component whatsoever. That is part of why they are so obsessed with health related issues, and claim that those who are handicapped may not be able to interface as clearly with God due to it.

Armstrongites hold the position that there is a spirit in man, even unconverted man, but they reject the idea that the spirit in man has a consciousness outside of the body. They also reject the continuing nature of the spirit in man.

In other words, both of them consider the immortal soul doctrine to be of pagan origin. They think mankind was built in a manner so he can be simply destroyed if he doesn't become saved. I don't know why they think an omnipotent God can't destroy a spirit being or a composite being anyways. It's not like he's powerless.

Regarding the topic, though, Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This cannot be talking about the resurrection, as the resurrection body is a glorified physical body. A resurrected redeemed child of God is not separate from the physical body; the body is glorified. Christ's resurrection body proves this. He had a resurrection body; he did not simply manifest one like the Armstrongites and JW's claim.

By the way this is a point that Armstrongites ignore. They claim that they will be made into spirit at the resurrection. They do not understand the concept of the bodily resurrection. Due to their denial of the concept of being born again (or regenerated) through the Holy Spirit, and their claim that they will be fully God in the resurrection, they believe that they will be spirit in the resurrection and will not have a glorified physical body.

II Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Neither Armstrongites nor SDAs can adequately explain this Scripture. With SDAs, they claim that when you are away from the body, you are not conscious; you are in a state of "soul sleep". Armstrongites claim the same thing.

As well, with regards to annihilationism, this is why they both claim that unrepentant mankind will simply cease to exist after being thrown in the lake of fire. I find this possible with regards to the Scriptures, but not bulletproof. There are Scriptures that are on the other side of the ledger, including Lazarus and the Rich Man and two Scriptures in Revelation. I also think that their explanation around Matthew 5:48 is weak. I do not support or deny annihilationism or eternal torment for this reason.

With regards to soul sleep, though, their position on this is based on faulty reasoning. For instance, they take verses from Ecclesiastes to "prove" their point. Solomon says a lot in the first part of Ecclesiastes that reflects his hopeless state of mind due to being backslidden, and using it for didactic purposes is ignoring the context. In addition, with regards to the metaphor of "sleep" in relation to death, it is obvious that this is referring to the physical body and does not state anything with regards to whether the person is conscious or not.

By the way, Paul himself said that when he went to heaven, that he was uncertain if he was in the body or not...they cannot adequately give a defense on those verses either. They can try to wrangle through a defense, but it's awkward at best.

Ii Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

So, if Paul himself did not know whether it was possible to exist and be conscious outside of the body, how does Ellen G. White, the rest of the SDAs, Herbert Armstrong, or the Armstrongites claim that they know the answer to this? Both of them, in essence, deny it.

In summary, I find their positions on this issue to be weak. They have embraced a world view, however, which they will defend tooth and nail, and will not admit to any possibility of an error, so it's useless to reason with those who have their minds made up already. They are unteachable. These are just a few of the points I could bring up in this regard.

Ahwatukee · Jan 2, 2016

Praise be to God that he brought you out of those false teachings! Coincidently, as I was reading the following from Philippians:

"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. They are headed for destruction"

============================================
I went to the CC to check on the posts and saw your post here regarding "annihilation" as I was looking up the Greek word "apoleia" translated "destruction" and which is derived from the root word "apollumi" which is defined as follows:

apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

============================================

I have endeavored to contend for the truth of this whenever I see those who claim that the unrighteous are simply annihilated/obliterated as soon they are thrown into the lake of fire, which of course is not supported by scripture, as can clearly be seen from the definition of the word used above. It is even more apparent that eternal punishment is not annihilation from observing the other words in the context that support the idea of on-going, conscious, punishment. Words like "they will have No rest, day or night" and "the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever," which alone destroys the idea of annihilation.

sparkman · Jan 2, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I can understand this assertion, but there are other verses which refer to the state of the lost as perishing or dying. This language seems to indicate finality.

By the way, annihilationists don't believe that they will be consumed immediately after being thrown in the lake of fire, but they believe they will suffer commensurate with the amount of sin that they committed in their lives. This suffering could be for a very long time. Their assertion is that it eventually ends, not that there won't be suffering which lasts for a long time.

Regarding destruction, though, the root of the word is not necessarily in perfect alignment with the meaning of the word. For instance, anomia is translated "transgression of the law" in the KJV due to the root nomos which refers mainly to the Old Covenant law. However, this is an incorrect assertion as the word anomia is best translated "rebellion" or "lawlessness" like it is translated in the ESV. This KJV rendering leads to a lot of misunderstandings amongst Sabbathkeepers.

But my major point is that it is deceptive to look at the root of the word in all cases, as the root of the word doesn't always reflect the full meaning of the word. For instance, if I claimed that "goodbye" meant "God be with you", that would be deceptive by today's usage, as no one really relates "goodbye" to God be with you now.

I'm not a Greek expert though but using the English language as an example, I believe my reasoning is sound. And Greek scholars have created our translations and I think they believe as a group that destruction is an appropriate rendering.

In addition Christ died on the cross, he didn't suffer eternally in fire...therefore if he paid the penalty for our sin, and the penalty is eternal torment, he would need to be eternally tormented with fire to suffer the penalty in our stead. If Christ suffered the penalty of our sin in our place, and the penalty is eternal torment, then it doesn't seem like he suffered it. If the penalty is death or cessation of life, then he suffered it as he was dead until the resurrection.

I do not claim that annihilationism is true or false. Both the traditionalists and the annihilationists have issues with their position. Neither of them seem to really be able to explain Lazarus and the Rich Man very well. Traditionalists have an issue in that the judgment of the ungodly hasn't happened yet, but the Rich Man is already being tormented in hell. Annihilationists cannot explain why the rich man's brothers were still alive and hadn't made their decision yet, according to the parable. And, both of them have scriptures to support their position.

Believe me, on every point of Armstrongism I have studied the issues in fine detail. I do not hold a position because I was previously taught the position, nor do I accept the counter position because I despise Armstrongism in general. I hold it because I read the Scriptures and come to my own conclusion, considering church history in the process, but not ignoring what the Scriptures say. On the annihilationism versus eternal torment position, I see Scriptural support for either position. So, I make no statement about it. If I am talking to someone about salvation, I talk about eternal punishment, and do not discuss duration. If a person would tell me that they couldn't worship a God who punishes someone eternally, I would bring up the possibility of annihilationism so that their concerns in that area would be addressed.

The situation with soul sleep is a lot more clear to me, though. Support for soul sleep isn't solid. It seems to imply that a Christian dies during the interval between death and resurrection, and Scripture says that believers have eternal life..not on, off, on again life.

Angela53510 · Jan 2, 2016

I agree, Sparkman. The OP is constantly posting SDA material and Ellen White nonsense, who is a failed prophet.

I'm not even going to comment, others have done a good job.

Euphemia · Jan 2, 2016

KennethC said:

Jesus' disciples had no problem recognizing the Lord when He showed Himself to them. To Mary Magdalene and the men on the road to Emmaeus it was a deliberate shrouding of His likeness.

Yes, we will be changed, just like Jesus, and that means changed into an immortal body....our same body but immortal, imperishable, and able to withstand the devastating, most powerful glory of God.

The rapture does not consist of Jesus setting one foot on the Earth, but we are called up to meet Him. At the Second Coming seven years later, after the wedding of the Lamb, we emerge with our Husband and come with Him to Earth, where Jesus' feet set down on the Mount of Olives. We come WITH Him on horseback. There are no horses taking us to heaven with Him. That's because our horses are waiting for us there.

RickyZ · Jan 3, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

I don't believe in annihilation either. Personally, I believe the lake of fire will be created by the decreated present earth and heavens. Think of what makes up all things... atoms. What holds them all together? God. What happens when you break one up? Consuming heat and fire. When God finally lets go of this creation, the resulting nuclear chaos of it's decreation creates the eternal fire of hell. And those who have rejected God will inherit this world, in it's natural state apart from Him.

Eternally.

shofar · Jan 3, 2016

please forgive and thank you for showing me that, i guess i need to know how to follow. yhank you

Archippus · Jan 3, 2016

RememberTheSabbathDay said:

When you die you await the resurrection of the dead( dead from this earth)
But according to revelation 6:9&10 the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God are able to cry out, they must be in a conscious state to do so

sparkman · Jan 3, 2016

Euphemia said:

Yes, one of the issues is that some read Paul's remarks about a "spiritual body" as being a "spirit body"..but this is not what pneumatikos means. It is obvious that there is continuity between the physical body and the resurrection body. Elsewise there would be no need for resurrection. Pneumatikos means that the body has some characteristics of spirit in that it is incorruptible and can do certain things that beings made of matter cannot do, but it does not mean the resurrected, redeemed person is a spirit. Christ's resurrection body was not a spirit, and he said this plainly in Luke 24:39.

prove-all · Jan 3, 2016

Archippus said:

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:

and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Archippus · Jan 3, 2016

prove-all said:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]After being made alive,[SUP][d][/SUP] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— [SUP]20 [/SUP]to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built
1Peter 3:18-20

shofar · Jan 4, 2016

the story of Abel and Cain is very interesting, I have read it through the torah, and the difference was how they felt about their parents losing The Garden of Eden where the ground tilled itself, where there was no thorns, etc, and Cain was upset about them losing it, and thought it wasnt fair that he wasnt given the chance, like if he would have shown to be different and wouldnt have lost it and now he has to pay for something he didnt do, and Abel was hopeful that through love and asking forgiveness and honoring the creator,(he authentically praised God and the best should be given to God showing aknowledgement too) and showing obedience he maybe could win the garden back, well the day that they were fighting is of that subject. I love this story

prove-all · Jan 4, 2016

present with the Lord

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be dissolved/mortal.
but we have a building form God a house not made with hands, eternal/immortal, in the heavens.

why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:

2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.

So again Paul says:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.

Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.

-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.

So lets go back to the texts in question:

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.

-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.

Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him. If being absent means
He is already with the Lord then how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.

As it is written:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,
that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive
the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

blessings.

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