Twice dead
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The KJV says trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit. The NKJV, NAS, NIV and other translations simply say "without fruit." So either way, these trees are without (good) fruit". Matthew 7:17-18 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. Only bad fruit from a bad tree withers. You are grasping for straws here in order to accommodate your biased doctrine.
*Now read the entire chapter. Again, in verse 4, they are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*
So once again, a tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead.
Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."
Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."
In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear NO fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stop bearing fruit.
*When Jesus spoke these words, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified (John 7:38,39) had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *So "in Me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. *You need to rightly divide the word of truth here. In Ephesians 1:13, we read, In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Was this a present reality for those prior to Christ being glorified when Jesus spoke these words?
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine, wither and are cast into the fire.
*Now read the entire chapter. Again, in verse 4, they are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS, SO THERE IS NO LOSS OF SALVATION HERE.*
So once again, a tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead.
Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."
Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."
In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear NO fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stop bearing fruit.
*When Jesus spoke these words, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified (John 7:38,39) had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *So "in Me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. *You need to rightly divide the word of truth here. In Ephesians 1:13, we read, In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Was this a present reality for those prior to Christ being glorified when Jesus spoke these words?
So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine, wither and are cast into the fire.
Unless those who were once good turn bad and fall away from the faith. You cannot be "twice dead" unless you were once alive. Jude mentions those as "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness," showing how they began perverting the gospel.
Jude compares them as "the angels which kept not their first estate," meaning they had departed from the faith. They are compared to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah "giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
And in the last part of the message it says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"
The message here is a warning against those who are falling away from the faith, which some had already done. But even many still today, like the OSAS crowd deny this can even happen to them.
Hebrews 6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Jude compares them as "the angels which kept not their first estate," meaning they had departed from the faith. They are compared to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah "giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
And in the last part of the message it says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"
The message here is a warning against those who are falling away from the faith, which some had already done. But even many still today, like the OSAS crowd deny this can even happen to them.
Hebrews 6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter on the grace of God.....I love that chapter...
Heb 6:4-8 talks about those that reject Jesus sacrifice...the people that choose not to believe in Jesus' sacrifice for them ..then in verse 9 it talks about us believers..
Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
Here the author of Hebrews is speaking to the "Beloved"..that is us Christians that have accepted Jesus as our sacrifice...and he talks about "things that accompany salvation"
He wanted them to know that the verses 4-8 was not for them..which is why he said.."..though we are speaking in this way."
He didn't want them to put themselves - the true believers in that category.
Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter about the love and grace of Christ for us believers...not so good for those depending on the temple system.
Heb 6:4-8 talks about those that reject Jesus sacrifice...the people that choose not to believe in Jesus' sacrifice for them ..then in verse 9 it talks about us believers..
Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
Here the author of Hebrews is speaking to the "Beloved"..that is us Christians that have accepted Jesus as our sacrifice...and he talks about "things that accompany salvation"
He wanted them to know that the verses 4-8 was not for them..which is why he said.."..though we are speaking in this way."
He didn't want them to put themselves - the true believers in that category.
Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter about the love and grace of Christ for us believers...not so good for those depending on the temple system.
Hebrews 6:4-8 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Do you believe people who have been partakers of the Holy Ghost were never a Christian/saved when they did so?
Do you believe the Holy Ghost can and does reside in non Christians, people who have rejected Christ's sacrifice for them?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Do you believe people who have been partakers of the Holy Ghost were never a Christian/saved when they did so?
Do you believe the Holy Ghost can and does reside in non Christians, people who have rejected Christ's sacrifice for them?
The OSAS and greasy grace camp will try to twist the scriptures concerning any notion that they can fall away from the faith, including Hebrews 6:4-8. They either say that it does apply to them, but to those "other people" who were never really saved to begin with.
But the words of the Lord are clear, and all their twisting of scripture does not change the warning given over and over again about those who would in fact fall away from the faith.
But the words of the Lord are clear, and all their twisting of scripture does not change the warning given over and over again about those who would in fact fall away from the faith.
People can definitely "fall away" from the faith and depend on their own works and fall from grace as can be seen in Galatians
Galatians 5:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;( doing your good works ) ye are fallen from grace.
italics mine
Then there is the falling away from 1 Tim 4:1-5
It means to "fall away" from the faith.....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul...here is what Paul defines as "falling away from faith"
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 5:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;( doing your good works ) ye are fallen from grace.
italics mine
Then there is the falling away from 1 Tim 4:1-5
It means to "fall away" from the faith.....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul...here is what Paul defines as "falling away from faith"
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
There is more than just one way to fall away from the faith, returning to be justified and saved by the works of the law is just one. But also those who would turn back to their old sinful ways, like a dog returning to it's own vomit, and thus proving by their own evil works they truly deny Christ.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
The last state of that man is worse than his beginning.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
The last state of that man is worse than his beginning.
2 peter 2:20-22 ... if this verse is talking about a believer...( which I don't believe it is ) does not say that they will lose their salvation.....I do know that the guy in 1Cor 5 was delivered over to satan for the destruction of his flesh but his spirit was still saved...
The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.
But it all depends on what "lens" people use with scripture and if they don't look at that particular scripture in it's FULL context.
Remember - if we don't take scripture in "context"..that "text" will "con" you..
Don't take some one else's medicine....
The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.
But it all depends on what "lens" people use with scripture and if they don't look at that particular scripture in it's FULL context.
Remember - if we don't take scripture in "context"..that "text" will "con" you..
Don't take some one else's medicine....
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It's clear to me what Peter was saying of those “if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Perhaps you need to clean your "lens" so you can see what is plainly written instead trying to explain it away based on false doctrine of con artists who deceive others with twisty talk.
Perhaps you need to clean your "lens" so you can see what is plainly written instead trying to explain it away based on false doctrine of con artists who deceive others with twisty talk.
LOL...goodness..so if people don't agree with your interpretation they are con artists and trying to deceive others?...you make me laugh!
As I say..even if this is about a believer....
It still doesn't say they lose their salvation.....people can have a terrible ending to their life if living by the flesh..as seen in 1 Cor 5 with the guy that was to be "delivered over to satan for the destruction of his flesh "..but his spirit was still saved...how do you account for that?
This 2 Peter scripture still does not say that they will lose salvation......that is "reading into" the scripture to fit your lens......
This is a possible scenario too :
A person who finds his or herself in the body around a group of believers, Experiences the love of Christ. And have a temporary repreieve from the corruption of the world (thats why people love to go to church and hang around with christians, if they do not have major sin issues)
To fall back into the world. And then be there on judgment day, KNOWING they had the truth in their hands, and could have trusted it for salvation.
It will be worse. than the person who never experienced truth,
As I say..even if this is about a believer....
It still doesn't say they lose their salvation.....people can have a terrible ending to their life if living by the flesh..as seen in 1 Cor 5 with the guy that was to be "delivered over to satan for the destruction of his flesh "..but his spirit was still saved...how do you account for that?
This 2 Peter scripture still does not say that they will lose salvation......that is "reading into" the scripture to fit your lens......
This is a possible scenario too :
A person who finds his or herself in the body around a group of believers, Experiences the love of Christ. And have a temporary repreieve from the corruption of the world (thats why people love to go to church and hang around with christians, if they do not have major sin issues)
To fall back into the world. And then be there on judgment day, KNOWING they had the truth in their hands, and could have trusted it for salvation.
It will be worse. than the person who never experienced truth,
It's clear to me what Peter was saying of those “if afterthey have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Perhaps you need to clean your "lens" so you can see what is plainly written instead trying to explain it away based on false doctrine of con artists who deceive others with twisty talk.
Perhaps you need to clean your "lens" so you can see what is plainly written instead trying to explain it away based on false doctrine of con artists who deceive others with twisty talk.
Understanding what Peter plainly says there does not leave any wiggle room for loose and sloppy interpretations, unless of course one is trying to deny the fact that one can fall away from the faith, then of course they will do their best to misrepresent what is plainly said in scripture. And Peter saying "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
That in no way suggests a happy ending for them does it?
And 1 Cor 5:5 does not say it is an absolute given that these sinners turned over to Satan would be saved, but "may be" depending on if they repent or not.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
That in no way suggests a happy ending for them does it?
And 1 Cor 5:5 does not say it is an absolute given that these sinners turned over to Satan would be saved, but "may be" depending on if they repent or not.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
How can he repent if he is destroyed in his flesh?...LOL
May be ?...this is the way English is written....I write things so that you may know you have them.....Now that is just ignorance gone to seed to think "may" means you might not.......looks like we cannot know we have eternal life now either...I certainly hope people double-check the scriptures you write about and take them in context and in light of the rest of the scriptures......my goodness....
1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
May be ?...this is the way English is written....I write things so that you may know you have them.....Now that is just ignorance gone to seed to think "may" means you might not.......looks like we cannot know we have eternal life now either...I certainly hope people double-check the scriptures you write about and take them in context and in light of the rest of the scriptures......my goodness....
1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
BFB Commentary:
twice dead—First when they cast their leaves in autumn, and seem during winter dead, but revive again in spring; secondly, when they are "plucked up by the roots." So these apostates, once dead in unbelief, and then by profession and baptism raised from the death of sin to the life of righteousness, but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, "plucked up by the roots."
Whenever apostasy is mentioned, it always talks about those that have already been judged by God. (Example: Rom 1, reprobate mind).
Here, their judgement is confirmed when it says "plucked up by the roots."
twice dead—First when they cast their leaves in autumn, and seem during winter dead, but revive again in spring; secondly, when they are "plucked up by the roots." So these apostates, once dead in unbelief, and then by profession and baptism raised from the death of sin to the life of righteousness, but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, "plucked up by the roots."
Whenever apostasy is mentioned, it always talks about those that have already been judged by God. (Example: Rom 1, reprobate mind).
Here, their judgement is confirmed when it says "plucked up by the roots."
That's not what is being said, 1 Cor 5 is speaking of those among them who had committed fornication and were to be turned over to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh," because they sinned against their own bodies.
Notice 1 Corinthians 5 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."
Those who commit fornication sin against their own bodies which leads to diseases of the flesh, such as sexually transmitted diseases which are a result of being turned over to Satan, and messengers of Satan who afflict not only spiritually but also the flesh by way of diseases.
1 Corinthians 6:18 "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
In no way was Paul saying these fornicators were going to saved by being killed, or destroyed. As a matter of fact Paul goes on to say in the next chapter .....
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
So hopefully these fornicators got the message and repented when they were given over to the destruction of their own flesh through diseases, which are also a result of sinful behavior.
Notice 1 Corinthians 5 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."
Those who commit fornication sin against their own bodies which leads to diseases of the flesh, such as sexually transmitted diseases which are a result of being turned over to Satan, and messengers of Satan who afflict not only spiritually but also the flesh by way of diseases.
1 Corinthians 6:18 "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
In no way was Paul saying these fornicators were going to saved by being killed, or destroyed. As a matter of fact Paul goes on to say in the next chapter .....
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
So hopefully these fornicators got the message and repented when they were given over to the destruction of their own flesh through diseases, which are also a result of sinful behavior.
I rest my case as far as you interpreting "things"........1 Cor 5:1-5 is talking about that one man that had his father's wife....Paul didn't turn over all those in Corinth that had sins to satan..lol..it was just that one man...in greek the word "one" is singular...
This is just getting too weird......I will leave here with this stuff.....God bless you!
This is just getting too weird......I will leave here with this stuff.....God bless you!
"Twice dead", is this threads outline, but there are also two deaths exampled in Scripture as well. To make notice of them would allow us to see the differences between them and I believe would make a clearer picture overall:
* When we are born we are born into death via Adam, before we were born we had a death sentence.. Yet as we allow the gift of Jesus' death to open up our door to the Father, this could be called a first death in view of our life in Christ, then to follow is our mortal bodies death, still facing the outcome of death as it's end.. The act of our passing As Scriptures indicate is that we will all die in that way and that from that face God's Judgement thereafter. And of course this is when we are transformed into our Heavenly bodies, and reward, If we are found in Him and the Book of life.. So in this practical situation of events we see two deaths as well.
* A second, in addition to the point outlined here already,would be a second death within the context of our life in Christ on this side of our mortal life. Both of these deaths would,then, represent the passing thru from our original death sentence into the New Creation in the life lived in the Lamb of Gods spirit by way of the Cross and death of Christ..
One is the literal death of Our Lord Jesus Christ on a cross, that without we would not have access to the Father, and then the second death is that of a "revelation and surrender" attached by our experiential attachment to that of Christ's premise in way of our own History. A second death as it were in us, that recognizes and accepts, and renders conclusive as our own identity found in His history. The emergent combination of our new disposition in Christ, from the Spirits transforming placement of new pictures being placed in the old house as it were..
Christ had to die in order to bring the old creation, including mankind, to an end. Only then could He produce a New Creation. In the Universe there is such a principle: the old must go that the new may come. The old humanity and the old creation must pass away so that the new may be ushered in. How could this be accomplished? By the death of Christ {Hence, the first represented death within our new life}. And who is this Christ? He is the Head of all creation {Eph. 1:22}. All creation subsists in Christ {Col. 1:17}; He is the Head, He is the center, He is the representative of the whole creation. Christ's death on the Cross, therefore, means that the whole creation as represented in Christ was brought to an end. Through, by, and in the death of Christ we and the whole creation were terminated. The facts, as it were, of our history found in Christ's victory for us. The first death of inclusion in believing in Him.
But God's word says there is another step, that we believe and receive. To receive we must do two things: obey, and be given by God our own revelation of a second death...OUR OWN! The economy of God is that Christ must bring to death all creation. In God's economy, we were crucified {Romans 6:6; Gal. 2:20; 5:24} even before we were born! Perhaps you were born, like me, a mere 50 years plus ago... smile, but you were crucified two thousand years ago!
In man's reckoning such a thing could not be, but in God's economy it is so. The whole creation was brought to an end by the crucifixion of Christ. That is why Christ had to die. And in the practical application of such a conclusive premise of events in our lives now we need to attach that impossible thing to our resolve to it., from human reasonings eye-sight, to a steady calm reality of experiential obedience to it done confidently and without compromise in a person who now demonstrates naturally so, the demeanor of their Master.. This, then, is the second act of grace where God leads us, through Sanctification, to that revelation through our obedience and His transformation in us thru the Holy Spirit of our death fully-realized. A practical second death exists from that fact where we conclude our death to ourselves within our own soul.. To conclude our right to ourselves banished, never to return, a weight only to drag us down. From these deaths come life, and that more abundantly.
These examples were not the points of the thread but are points worthy of notice nonetheless.
* When we are born we are born into death via Adam, before we were born we had a death sentence.. Yet as we allow the gift of Jesus' death to open up our door to the Father, this could be called a first death in view of our life in Christ, then to follow is our mortal bodies death, still facing the outcome of death as it's end.. The act of our passing As Scriptures indicate is that we will all die in that way and that from that face God's Judgement thereafter. And of course this is when we are transformed into our Heavenly bodies, and reward, If we are found in Him and the Book of life.. So in this practical situation of events we see two deaths as well.
* A second, in addition to the point outlined here already,would be a second death within the context of our life in Christ on this side of our mortal life. Both of these deaths would,then, represent the passing thru from our original death sentence into the New Creation in the life lived in the Lamb of Gods spirit by way of the Cross and death of Christ..
One is the literal death of Our Lord Jesus Christ on a cross, that without we would not have access to the Father, and then the second death is that of a "revelation and surrender" attached by our experiential attachment to that of Christ's premise in way of our own History. A second death as it were in us, that recognizes and accepts, and renders conclusive as our own identity found in His history. The emergent combination of our new disposition in Christ, from the Spirits transforming placement of new pictures being placed in the old house as it were..
Christ had to die in order to bring the old creation, including mankind, to an end. Only then could He produce a New Creation. In the Universe there is such a principle: the old must go that the new may come. The old humanity and the old creation must pass away so that the new may be ushered in. How could this be accomplished? By the death of Christ {Hence, the first represented death within our new life}. And who is this Christ? He is the Head of all creation {Eph. 1:22}. All creation subsists in Christ {Col. 1:17}; He is the Head, He is the center, He is the representative of the whole creation. Christ's death on the Cross, therefore, means that the whole creation as represented in Christ was brought to an end. Through, by, and in the death of Christ we and the whole creation were terminated. The facts, as it were, of our history found in Christ's victory for us. The first death of inclusion in believing in Him.
But God's word says there is another step, that we believe and receive. To receive we must do two things: obey, and be given by God our own revelation of a second death...OUR OWN! The economy of God is that Christ must bring to death all creation. In God's economy, we were crucified {Romans 6:6; Gal. 2:20; 5:24} even before we were born! Perhaps you were born, like me, a mere 50 years plus ago... smile, but you were crucified two thousand years ago!
In man's reckoning such a thing could not be, but in God's economy it is so. The whole creation was brought to an end by the crucifixion of Christ. That is why Christ had to die. And in the practical application of such a conclusive premise of events in our lives now we need to attach that impossible thing to our resolve to it., from human reasonings eye-sight, to a steady calm reality of experiential obedience to it done confidently and without compromise in a person who now demonstrates naturally so, the demeanor of their Master.. This, then, is the second act of grace where God leads us, through Sanctification, to that revelation through our obedience and His transformation in us thru the Holy Spirit of our death fully-realized. A practical second death exists from that fact where we conclude our death to ourselves within our own soul.. To conclude our right to ourselves banished, never to return, a weight only to drag us down. From these deaths come life, and that more abundantly.
These examples were not the points of the thread but are points worthy of notice nonetheless.
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So one mans example does not apply to all? Or does it only apply to all when it suits your view of how one cannot lose salvation no matter what? LOL!
Keep on reading ole chap and perhaps you'll see what Paul said applied to more than just one man.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators (plural)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators(plural) of this world, or with the covetous,(plural) or extortioners,(plural) or with idolaters;(plural) for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man (plural)that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."
Good luck with that "lens" hope you get it all cleaned up. You have a good evening now ya hear?
Keep on reading ole chap and perhaps you'll see what Paul said applied to more than just one man.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators (plural)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet not altogether with the fornicators(plural) of this world, or with the covetous,(plural) or extortioners,(plural) or with idolaters;(plural) for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man (plural)that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."
Good luck with that "lens" hope you get it all cleaned up. You have a good evening now ya hear?
...and so all those were delivered over to satan for the destruction of the flesh like the one guy Paul mentioned in verse 5?......you say this even though the scriptures do not say that at all?......now you see why I double-check what you say..you "add to the scripture" so much stuff....this is so hilarious!
the scriptures 1 Cor 5:9-11....I agree with the scriptures for what they are saying...he is telling them not to associate with those christians that carry on in the flesh..... but they have nothing to do with the ONE guy turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh...my goodness!.....now you can see why I double-check what you write.....
Not that this means anything to this talk other then I always have to double-check everything you say......but your ...if any man (plural) that is called a brother in verse 11 quoted above....this plural is actually singular.......have a good night too!...
anyone
IPro-NMS - singular
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"] [e]
adelphos
ἀδελφὸς
a brother
N-NMS - singular[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
the scriptures 1 Cor 5:9-11....I agree with the scriptures for what they are saying...he is telling them not to associate with those christians that carry on in the flesh..... but they have nothing to do with the ONE guy turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh...my goodness!.....now you can see why I double-check what you write.....
Not that this means anything to this talk other then I always have to double-check everything you say......but your ...if any man (plural) that is called a brother in verse 11 quoted above....this plural is actually singular.......have a good night too!...
anyone
IPro-NMS - singular
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"] [e]
adelphos
ἀδελφὸς
a brother
N-NMS - singular[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]