The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[Gr8grace]

We ask it of other humans because they hold it against us..... as we humans do. But our Father told us that He let His son die for us so that sin would be defeated from that moment, on. Jesus cried out from that cross, "Father, forgive them." NOT: "Father, forgive them IF they prove their worthiness by doing something they will come to call "repenting" each and every time they do something wrong."

And I believe this is what 1 John 1:9 is all about.Acknowledging our sin to God brings us back to the truth and the fact that ALL sin is forgiven.

If we deviate from his plan in our sinning , sin condemns us, keeps us guilty, makes us fear. So God wants us to acknowledge it to Him and get back into the truth that there is no worry,fear or guilt in the forgiven Life He has planned for us.

we are not asking for His forgiveness, we are getting back into fellowship with Him and His Grace.......the fact that we are forgiven.

 

[Grace777x70]

I know that I have struggled with this 1 John 1:9 thing initially as well. For me it was part of my religious upbringing and wanting to "get right" because I was told this is the way it is....ask for forgiveness in order to get that forgiveness .........which in reality is already ours in Christ.

The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use. ...what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character..

.I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't..I think that is irrelevant...I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son..my Lord is my life..my righteousness,..Jesus Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins....I confess what God says about me...I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him...

I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now...but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do...

You know ...He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me..and I just sit there in His presence and weep..I can't move a muscle..He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.


To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.

For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )

This truth applies to all areas of our lives. This is something that the Lord is showing me now at this stage in my life with Him.

 

[Gr8grace]

For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh.

That is great insight Grace777. Most of us will key in on the overt act of stealing being the main Issue.

But we have already quenched His Spirit before we even stole...........we didn't trust Him for our needs.

Its our motivations that are key.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree... it is interesting though in light of "confessing'..I have been accused of creating "hyper-sins" with the statement of the real sin within the other sin.....thank God we have hyper-grace for those hyper-sins....

Our loving Father shows me His kindness and love for me which causes me to repent - change my mind that is now renewed to agree with Him...that He is faithful..all the time!

That is great insight Grace777. Most of us will key in on the overt act of stealing being the main Issue.

But we have already quenched His Spirit before we even stole...........we didn't trust Him for our needs.

Its our motivations that are key.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I do agree that we need to name and site or acknowledge our sin to God as believers. When we grieve or quench the Spirit we need to recognize it and carry on............In grace. Not for salvation, but to get back in His plan for our lives.

Acts 16:31 refutes your Idea that salvation is not a one time/moment in time choice. The aorist tense of believe proves this. the moment a person believes, God saves them.

The aorist tense doesn't prove what you think it does, because it is indefinite, not simple past tense.

 

[blondieindahouse]

I know that I have struggled with this 1 John 1:9 thing initially as well. For me it was part of my religious upbringing and wanting to "get right" because I was told this is the way it is....ask for forgiveness in order to get that forgiveness .........which in reality is already ours in Christ.

The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use. ...what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character..

.I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't..I think that is irrelevant...I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son..my Lord is my life..my righteousness,..Jesus Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins....I confess what God says about me...I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him...

I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now...but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do...

You know ...He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me..and I just sit there in His presence and weep..I can't move a muscle..He is so mighty in power yet His love is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.


To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.

For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )

This truth applies to all areas of our lives. This is something that the Lord is showing me now at this stage in my life with Him.

.I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't.

This is exactly what I was getting at on the other thread about confession.

This looks like a confession to me . A confession because you are ......what for it........conscious of sin! BINGO!

Also, How did you know what you did was wrong? Were you convicted of your sin?
So then you knew it was wrong because you had a change of heart? Repentance?

So,if you dont ask for forgiveness then why are we told to repent? You cannot turn without first acknowledging why you must turn. Was that God making you conscious of your sin? Yes! So, I guess there is a sin consciousness .
We turn from it because God has disciplined us.
I think I remember being ridiculed for saying that as well .

Your just missing one ingredient in this mix. You do ask for forgiveness because you have transgressed against the law. You dont ask to be saved all over again but you ask to show reverence.

 

[Grace777x70]

Nobody says that they don't confess sins..most likely people said they don't confess in order to receive forgiveness.

Everyone can talk to their Father and Lord however they want.....that is between you and Him.


it's in the term sin-consciousness that can trip people up.....maybe sin-focused might be better term in order for you to understand what I was talking about....so instead of focusing in on sin....focus in on righteousness in Christ.. that was what I was getting at on that subject..

As far as repentance goes..you can look at post #28 and #30 for my views on that...

This is exactly what I was getting at on the other thread about confession.

This looks like a confession to me . A confession because you are ......what for it........conscious of sin! BINGO!

Also, How did you know what you did was wrong? Were you convicted of your sin?
So then you knew it was wrong because you had a change of heart? Repentance?

So,if you dont ask for forgiveness then why are we told to repent? You cannot turn without first acknowledging why you must turn. Was that God making you conscious of your sin? Yes! So, I guess there is a sin consciousness .
We turn from it because God has disciplined us.
I think I remember being ridiculed for saying that as well .

Your just missing one ingredient in this mix. You do ask for forgiveness because you have transgressed against the law. You dont ask to be saved all over again but you ask to show reverence.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Willie said it well in post # 33

I believe you will find that it means, "I have realized my previous thinking about Christ was wrong, and I now choose to believe in what He said."

My mind is being renewed to who I am in Christ now....because of Christ being in me..I set my mind on Him and His finished work on my behalf....the new creation in Christ...

.I set my mind on what Paul says...so, "I repent"..ie change my mind to line up with Christ in me..His life..etc...I set my mind on Christ in me.....if that means for example...if I have been slandering a leader in the body of Christ ..The Holy Spirit in me gets grieved....as I am being disrespectful of my brothers/sisters in Christ.....I see that truth ... God grants me repentance ( which is changing of our mind ) ..then I repent and change how I speak about them with respect now.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Repentance is a God-given response to the nature of Him..

Romans 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

It is God that gives us repentance..He is awesome!

Acts 11:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

If you want more understanding on what I believe about repentance you can go to post #28 and #30

Then I don't want to hear what you talk to Jesus about when you do holy communion with Him, because that time period is not only about recognizing what He did for us on the cross, but also conversing with Him one-on-one as with a Counselor, and that includes repentance for misdeeds of our flesh.

I also wonder if you ever say the prayer He gave us to say through His Apostles, which includes asking Him forgiveness of OUR sins.

[video=youtube_share;Ph8hdlHmzpU]http://youtu.be/Ph8hdlHmzpU[/video]

Short video and,an excellent example.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We ask it of other humans because they hold it against us..... as we humans do. But our Father told us that He let His son die for us so that sin would be defeated from that moment, on. Jesus cried out from that cross, "Father, forgive them." NOT: "Father, forgive them IF they prove their worthiness by doing something they will come to call "repenting" each and every time they do something wrong."

Revelation 2-3 indicates that Christ does as well. I hold against you...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And I believe this is what 1 John 1:9 is all about.Acknowledging our sin to God brings us back to the truth and the fact that ALL sin is forgiven.

If we deviate from his plan in our sinning , sin condemns us, keeps us guilty, makes us fear. So God wants us to acknowledge it to Him and get back into the truth that there is no worry,fear or guilt in the forgiven Life He has planned for us.

we are not asking for His forgiveness, we are getting back into fellowship with Him and His Grace.......the fact that we are forgiven.

IMO this is exactly right.

 

[blondieindahouse]

Nobody says that they don't confess sins..most likely people said they don't confess in order to receive forgiveness.

Everyone can talk to their Father and Lord however they want.....that is between you and Him.


it's in the term sin-consciousness that can trip people up.....maybe sin-focused might be better term in order for you to understand what I was talking about....so instead of focusing in on sin....focus in on righteousness in Christ.. that was what I was getting at on that subject..

As far as repentance goes..you can look at post #28 and #30 for my views on that...

WOF is what trips people up and creates laodecian followers imho. Sin consciousness is not the same as sin focused. Perhaps if it were phrased differently the other thread, it wouldnt be as long a thread as it is Being conscious when necessary puts us back the right track in which Jesus calls being righteous. We know we already have imputed righteousness but our rebellion gets us out of the right standing in fellowship with God.

But my point is this: Sin consciousness in the "right light" is not going to trip anybody up.

I think I already know your views on repentance. How could I miss it. Its all over the board.

another .02 cents

 

[Grace777x70]

okie dokie.....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is hardly a connection between God's grace and Gnosticism. Believers in Gnosticism believe that sin couldn't be imputed to them because they were inherently spirit. They didn't believe they had sin (1 John 1:9; unlike grace believers, who acknowledge their sin but know Jesus took care of it). Sin isn't imputed to us because it was given to Christ at the cross. That is the hyper-grace stance, not in agreement with Gnosticism. It glorifies Jesus Christ and not self.

Those adhering to Gnosticism found comfort/assurance in themselves just like the self-righteous legalistic gospel individuals do. Their assurance is found in themselves. It rather seems Gnosticism and Legalism have a likeness and it is pride. Looking to self as the full measure of assurance, as the means to why one is saved. Unlike those in agreement with "modern hyper-grace", knowing their salvation is not dependent upon themselves but the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The opposition you have against Hyper-Grace theology seems to be chalk full of straw man, and ignorance (respectfully). Every disagreement thus far and refuted continues to be one not posited by those who you would say fall under "new modern Hyper Grace" teaching. I suggest you read a book by a grace preacher so you can better understand what you seem to be so against.

At the moment, you aren't addressing what some might call the "Gospel of Grace" but some imagined gospel that contradicts scripture and grace preachers themselves. You're refuting something that isn't being presented and therefore are wasting your time and those reading. Its pointless, and only further buries people in ignorance to God's grace.

That's true that gnosticism has nothing in common with GOD's grace, but it is has striking similarities to new.modern.hyper grace.

I think it's a riot when new.modern.hyper grace folks tell me what they think gnosticism was, right after I've shown them what a man who knew them well wrote about them!

I know that people like to throw out the term straw man to win points and act like they know what they're talking about. Unfortunately, your use of the term doesn't make much sense. Why don't you explain what exactly the straw man is that you're referring to?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is false. Hyper-Grace looks to what the scripture says and what does it say? It says to renew your mind. You see, our overcoming of sin is found in identity and when we renew our minds to the spiritual truths of God's word it manifests itself in our walk.

No, overcoming the world and sin is found in faith. Identity is not faith; it is an image in the mind.

Do you see the crappy formatting that clutters up your posts. What in the world are you posting from?

 

[BenFTW]

No, overcoming the world and sin is found in faith. Identity is not faith; it is an image in the mind.

Do you see the crappy formatting that clutters up your posts. What in the world are you posting from?

I think its on your end and not my end. I am posting from my laptop and no one else has this issue you have with my posts.

 

[Magenta]

I think its on your end and not my end. I am posting from my laptop and no one else has this issue you have with my posts.

I see html that is not supposed to be visible; the tags/commands are not properly closed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think its on your end and not my end. I am posting from my laptop and no one else has this issue you have with my posts.

Uh no, it's something you were doing with color formatting. It's not in this post of yours. I've never seen it in any other post before, until yours recently.

 

[Grace777x70]

it looks ok to me...your post looks just like everyone else's....I am on a desktop computer...maybe people on mobiles are having trouble?...

I think its on your end and not my end. I am posting from my laptop and no one else has this issue you have with my posts.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think its on your end and not my end. I am posting from my laptop and no one else has this issue you have with my posts.

This is a sample of what I'm seeing. Almost impossible to reply to.

This is hardly a connection bet[COLOR=#3E3E3Eween God's grace and Gnosticism. Believers in Gnosticism believe that sin couldn't be imputed to them because they [/COLOR[COLOR=#3E3E3Ewere inherently spirit/COLOR][COLOR=#3E3E3E. They didn't believe they had sin (1 John 1:9; unlike grace believers, [/COLOR[COLOR=#3E3E3Ewho ackno[/COLOR][COLOR=#3E3E3Ewledge their sin but kno[/COLOR]w Jesus took care of it).

 

[Magenta]

Uh no, it's something you were doing with color formatting. It's not in this post of yours. I've never seen it in any other post before, until yours recently.

It is what happens when only part of an html command is put into any message. There is an opening command (for lack of a better word) and a closing command. We are seeing the opening command because no closing command was given. If it had been, both would have been hidden, as html is supposed to be. It has nothing to do with our "devices." It is an editing matter.