Faith Alone?

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Faith + good works do not save.

John 3:16 doesn't mention works.
Faith saves and saving faith produces good works. Works salvationists put the cart before the horse. John 3:16 - Whoever believes in Him "apart from additions or modifications" shall not perish but have eternal life. Not believes and works, but simply BELIEVES (Romans 4:5). Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. :)
 

plaintalk

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Jul 20, 2015
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Faith Alone #26
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mark 16: 15, 16) IMO Jesus seems to indicate that more than faith alone is needed. God bless.
 

plaintalk

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Faith alone? # 28
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6: 3) See Galatians 3: 26, 27 and 1 Cor. 12: 13. The Scriptures seem to indicate that we are baptized into Christ. Jesus said, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Like 13; 3) God bless.
 

plaintalk

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Jul 20, 2015
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Faith alone? #24
Would you agree that a "work of faith" (1 Thess. 1: 3) or "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1: 5) is "of faith" and not a work of law nor a work of merit? God bless.
 

plaintalk

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Faith alone? # 30
For you all are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27) These verses seem to indicate that we are sons of God through faith by baptism into Christ. God bless.
 
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To seed_time_harvest: #205
It would be easier for the reader If the "reply with quote" In the lower right side of the post were used,so that the reader doesn't have to scroll up to read what you responded to.:)
 

plaintalk

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Jul 20, 2015
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Faith alone? # 39
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation---having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. (Eph. 1: 13) Twice, this verse mentions "in Him" but doesn't say anything about being born again as far as I can see. IMO we are "in Him" by being baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27; 1 Cor. 12; 13) One verse, while being true, may not give us the whole story about any particular subject. For example, we do receive the Spirit by faith as cited here and John 7: 39, but we also receive the Spirit through repentance and baptism (Acts 2: 38, 39) and through obedience (Acts 5: 32). John 3: 5 shows that to be born again, means among other things, that we are born of both water and Spirit.
Certainly we are not saved nor justified by any work of the law (Gal. 2: 16) not any work of merit (Titus 3: 5) but we are saved by the washing that accompanies regeneration (Titus 3: 5). When we obey by performing a "work of faith" or "obedience of faith," we are not doing our works, we are doing the works of God. James explains it well when he wrote, you see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled, speaking of Abraham's justification before God, not before men. (James 2: 22-24) God bless
 
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Faith Alone #26
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mark 16: 15, 16) IMO Jesus seems to indicate that more than faith alone is needed. God bless.
when you say baptized,are you talking about baptized with the Spirit?

And John 3:16 does not mention anything but faith.
+++
Are you saying that your truth Is more acceptable than GODs truth?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Faith Alone #26
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mark 16: 15, 16) IMO Jesus seems to indicate that more than faith alone is needed. God bless.
By the time that you cherry pick the first half of Mark 16:16 and ignore the second half of the verse and what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) it only "appears" to your indoctrinated mind that Jesus seems to indicate that more than faith (IN CHRIST) alone is needed.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Faith alone? # 28
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6: 3) See Galatians 3: 26, 27 and 1 Cor. 12: 13. The Scriptures seem to indicate that we are baptized into Christ.
You continue to confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism. Paul clearly said that we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (.) PERIOD! End of sentence and thought on how we become children of God. Next sentence, next thought - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourselves with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses just as we are not literally water baptized into the body of Christ. We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). *You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on (endue) the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. *This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). *Written to those ALREADY SAVED.

The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on a uniform, he is revealing himself to be a soldier and putting on what he has previously been qualified to wear. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one become a soldier. Once one is made a soldier he is then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.

So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they have previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14.

*If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith)​, then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

Jesus said, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Like 13; 3) God bless.
We will perish if we don't repent because if we don't repent "change our mind" we will not believe the gospel and become saved. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Faith alone? #24
Would you agree that a "work of faith" (1 Thess. 1: 3) or "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1: 5) is "of faith" and not a work of law nor a work of merit? God bless.
This is a smoke screen in order to try and justify your erroneous teaching that we are saved by "these works" and just not "those works." You cannot dissect good works from the MORAL aspect of the law, so either way it's salvation by works!

In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" faith. You are trying to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. You seem to make no distinction between faith and works that follow as a "result" of faith.
 

vic1980

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Ecclesiastes 9:1 For I have taken all this to my heart and explain it that righteous men, wise men, and their deeds are in the hand of God.

Shalom
 
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We have a New Covenant now in Christ.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own ( by their own good works ), they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. ( He has good works for us to do..but they originate from Him and flow out of our inner man to others )

Blue is my italics

There is a massive difference between the two "good works" in God's eyes...to men they look the same...
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Some are not going to let the bible get In the way of what they believe.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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How true....Jesus spoke about things like this....Jesus is and will always remain the answer....the beginning and the end.

John 5:39-40 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
[SUP]40 [/SUP] and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.



Some are not going to let the bible get In the way of what they believe.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Some are not going to let the bible get In the way of what they believe.
Some are very satisfied with what they already believe because it tickles their ears and feeds their pride and they don't want to be confused with the facts.
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
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#228 "when you say baptized,are you talking about baptized with the Spirit?" My understanding is that there is only one baptism (Eph. 4: 5) that applies to us today in regard to salvation, however that one baptism has two elements, water and Spirit. Similarly there is one spiritual birth (John 3: 5) but two elements, water and Spirit. Cornelius was baptized with both, water and Spirit. In my thinking we cannot be born of both water and the Spirit unless we have been immersed in both.

#228 "
And John 3:16 does not mention anything but faith." Yes, that is true John 3: 16 speaks of faith and eternal life. However other passages speak of other factors and eternal life. For example John 17: 3 speaks of knowing God and eternal life, nothing about faith. If we want to get the whole story, we need to consider all the passages we can that speak of eternal life and the factors that are associated with it. When we we find for example:
A. We can't know God and not keep His commandments. (1 John 2: 4, 5)
B. We can't know God and not love. (1 John 4: 8)
In support of this approach, we find that those who love, have passed from death to life. (1 John 3: 14) Compare this statement to John 5: 24.
James 1: 12 states that God has promised a crown of life to those who love Him.
Of course there are other factors associated with receiving life if we will open our minds to search for them.
#228 "Are you saying that your truth Is more acceptable than GODs truth?" I hope not, that would really be arrogant. I am saying that we need to search all of GOD'S truth before we draw conclusions. May God bless us all with open mines and hearts as we endeavor to understand His will.
 
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#228 " My understanding is that there is only one baptism (Eph. 4: 5) that applies to us today in regard to salvation, however that one baptism has two elements, water and Spirit.


GOD looks at the heart and does not need to see physical works when It comes to salvation.
 

plaintalk

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Jul 20, 2015
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# 238 “GOD looks at the heart and does not need to see physical works when It comes to salvation.” seed_time_harvest
Response: Nevertheless the angel of the Lord said to Abraham, “For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22: 12) And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. (Gen. 22: 18) It seems that the faith which is reckoned for righteousness is approved by God when it obeys. “By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous.” (Heb. 11: 4) “By faith Enoch was taken up---he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.” (Heb. 11: 5) It seems that God wants that witness which obedience provides. “By faith Noah-- - in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household---and became an heir of the righteous which is by faith.” (Heb. 11: 6) “By faith Abraham, when he was called obeyed---. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise---. (Heb. 11: 8, 9) “By faith Abraham, when he was tested offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son.” (Heb. 11: 17) It appears that God tests faith by obedience. James tells us, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2: 23) Faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected or approved by God. (James 2: 22) You see we are not justified by faith alone. Jesus said it is not enough to say “Lord, Lord,” that is to claim to believe in the Lord, faith requires obedience. (Matt. 7: 21) “Brethren what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “ Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.” (Acts 2: 37- 39) “So then, those who had received the word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2: 41) Does God know the heart of man? Of course. Does he still test our faith by obedience? Sounds like it to me. God bless.