Nimrod

prove-all · Jan 12, 2016

yes that subject is a hard one to swallow, came across this guys thread once about topic,
I am not very smart on this subject, but he seemed to be knowledgeable about it.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/2712-fixed-earth.html

GodIsSalvation · Jan 12, 2016

prove-all said:

Very interesting I will have to read over this tomorrow. It's one of the higher intellectual subjects for sure. It really sounds absurd growing up in our time and culture, but the hilarious thing is the mainstream atheistic/pagan cosmology's only proof is basically fake pictures and they openly mock the Biblical cosmology and also the Bible and Christianity as unscientific. The Biblical cosmology is the only one that can be experimented and observed and such experiments and observations can be easily replicated, which rather makes the Bible the only one that technically fits the definition of science lol.

Is · Jan 13, 2016

GodIsSalvation said:

So, you're saying Lucifer is the King of Babylon and he fell from heaven?

GodIsSalvation said:

That's reading a lot into Gen.11 to say that Nimrod took over the city of Babel since the sons of Ham are recorded in Gen.10 and then the tower incident appears in Gen.11.

GodIsSalvation said:

I honestly don't see what that has to with anything other than the fact that it was against the express command of God.

GodIsSalvation said:

No, the Lord wouldn't have annihilated them because he said:

"neither will I smite any more every thing living, as I have done" Gen.8

GodIsSalvation said:

If you don't take into account he had a man killed so he could marry his wife that he had impregnated.

GodIsSalvation said:

Or "against".

Is · Jan 13, 2016

GodIsSalvation said:

There are many types and anti-types in the Bible tahn span many years.

The only thing I would never use extra-Biblical information for is the Gospel of Jesus the Christ of Nazareth and the prophecies about Him in the OT.

Is · Jan 13, 2016

Angela53510 said:

</title> </head> <body link="#003399"> <html> <head> <meta name="description" content="Christian Apologetics, Theology, Information on Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. A reformed ministry dedicated to sharing the Gospel of God'

What the article basically says, is that when ALL the Greek manuscripts before. The 14th century, including the TR say, "autone" in Greek in Luke 2:22, but some of the KJV translators didn't like that word, they used "autas" for her, even though none of the manuscripts say that. Ruckman agrees, because he doesn't like the right word, either. So he stands behind a wrong word, because the KJV uses it, instead of actually looking at the Greek for nearly 14 centuries. And then calling acknowledged Bible scholars names, because they have not joined the KJV only cult!

I could give you a lot more examples, if you want!

What article are you referring to? You've copied and pasted, please provide the source.

GodIsSalvation · Jan 13, 2016

Is said:

Isaiah 14 is addressed to King of Babylon (verse 4). We know it's not about Satan because for one, satan is a dragon the Bible says unambiguously in both his first and last mentions in the Bible Genesis 3 and Revelation. Revelation 12 tells us all of the dragon's titles, Satan and Devil. We know Satan has no light in him, therefore to call him the lightbringer (meaning of lucifer) is not applicable. The king of Babylon was one whom was at one time highly esteemed, whom God empowered, but his pride and vanity brought him down. Within the Bible the character most concurrent to him is either Nebuchadnezzar or an unnamed Babylonian king in time of Isaiah as it is Isaiah was instructed to take up the proverb against him.

Genesis 10 is a basic outline of the post-Flood geneology. The Table of Nations describing the genesis of the post-Flood races and nations that arose out of Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Genesis 11 shows us the Tower of Babel incident which would have happened sometime between Noah and Abraham. Genesis 11 concludes with the geneology from Noah to Abraham.

What that has to do with it is it shows clearly Nimrod did not commission the building of the tower of Babel, but rather was a collective effort of the people. That may have included Nimrod, but it is also then possible Nimrod wasn't even born as it is implied he's the youngest son of Cush.

Aye I'd agree, the Lord is merciful, but remember, that is only as long as the earth remaineth, and the earth and heaven will perish one day by fire (2 Peter 3). The people did defy God's command to spread out, but God did not destroy them or smite them as he did Sodom and Gomorrah or Egypt, but merely confounded their languages that they might not understand each other. In fact I think this a blessing rather than a curse as we know God is not the author of confusion and we know that diversity of tongues is a gift according to Paul.

Yes David sinned having Uriah the Hittite's innocent blood shed. David was punished though for it though, his own family and friends turned on him. David is one of the greatest mortal kings ever in all history, even up to today, and I believe he was a good man. Again note the Lord is merciful and through Bathsheba came Solomon and through Solomon we get Jesus.

Lol again on paneh, in the specific usage of it here it is meaning in estimation of or in the sight of according to your own link.

Here it is again, I'll even bold it and underline the specific meaning for this verse for you so that it is easier to read in the sight of the forum.

(g) in the sight (estimation) of, Genesis 7:1 thee have I seen to be just before me, Genesis 10:9 a mighty hunter before ׳י,

GodIsSalvation · Jan 13, 2016

Is said:

Well I'll take that as a little progress. Remember the whole Bible testifies of Jesus from beginning to end. Even in this verse we see this given whom Nimrod was found to be a mighty hunter before.

Indeed the unbiblical sources are no good for they all attempt to break down and confuse the basic Bible narrative, some more subtly than other. The elaborate mythology the heresies and pagan religions woven around Nimrod are a good example of it as subtly they imply that we should not trust what Genesis says and should rather trust or try to legitimize their heresies or pagan religions.

Is · Jan 13, 2016

GodIsSalvation said:

How do you think Lucifer became known as satan the opposer of god? It's in (vs.13&14) of Isaiah 14 that we know how he got the titles of satan and dragon. This is not addressed to the King of Babylon, the fallen Lucifer was the satanic spirit of self-diefication that appeard in it's fullest in the last King of Babylon.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

God's first creatures, including the greatest of them i.e. Lucifer, who later became satan were called "morning stars" in (Job 38:7), because they were resplendent, unfallen creatures of light.

GodIsSalvation said:

Blah, blah, blah, yeah ok.

prove-all · Jan 13, 2016

“Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh,
and the city Rehoboth, and Calah”

that Asshur and Nimrod went out of the land of Shinar to build Nineveh and other cities

“The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.”
Asshur was a son of Shem, the father of the white racial strain

—those of fair skin and lighter hair.

Notice that Arphaxad is listed in this verse as the third son of Shem.

Now read Genesis 11:10: “These are the generations of Shem:
Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood.”

Neither of Shem’s first two sons, Elam or Asshur, are mentioned!
That’s because they were rejected as the heirs of Shem’s inheritance.

If they were working alongside Nimrod, you can see why Shem (and God)
rejected them! Asshur parted with his father and became the progenitor of the Assyrian people.

Over 300 years later, Abraham, through whom God was to raise up His chosen
nation Israel, was begotten of the line of Arphaxad, the third son of Shem.

that Asshur, father of the Assyrians, and Arphaxad, whose line
Abraham descended from, both came from Shem.

This means that while there may be some distinguishable physical differences between
the Assyrians and Israelites, both peoples came from the fair-skinned, white racial strain of Shem.

Tintin · Jan 13, 2016

prove-all said:

“Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh,
and the city Rehoboth, and Calah”

that Asshur and Nimrod went out of the land of Shinar to build Nineveh and other cities

“The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.”
Asshur was a son of Shem, the father of the white racial strain

—those of fair skin and lighter hair.

Notice that Arphaxad is listed in this verse as the third son of Shem.

Now read Genesis 11:10: “These are the generations of Shem:
Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood.”

Neither of Shem’s first two sons, Elam or Asshur, are mentioned!
That’s because they were rejected as the heirs of Shem’s inheritance.

If they were working alongside Nimrod, you can see why Shem (and God)
rejected them! Asshur parted with his father and became the progenitor of the Assyrian people.

Over 300 years later, Abraham, through whom God was to raise up His chosen
nation Israel, was begotten of the line of Arphaxad, the third son of Shem.

that Asshur, father of the Assyrians, and Arphaxad, whose line
Abraham descended from, both came from Shem.

This means that while there may be some distinguishable physical differences between
the Assyrians and Israelites, both peoples came from the fair-skinned, white racial strain of Shem.

Sounds like some British Israelism or Christian Identity nonsense to me. Japheth, not Shem, was the father of Europeans and those people people groups who migrated to Japan. Japheth, along with Ham, was also probably the father to the southern people of India and Australian Aboriginals.

GodIsSalvation · Jan 14, 2016

Is said:

In the Bible the dragon became known as Satan (Enemy) and Devil (liar) because of the Fall which is in Genesis 3 wherein the dragon lied to Eve and beguiled her into allowing death into the world. The dragon also fell right then, and the greater fault is on him for deceiving Eve. Isaiah 14 is clearly addressed to the King of Babylon as per verse 4. Furthermore we know this burden was laid in the year that king Ahaz died as per verse 28.

The Lucifer heresy is why satanists and such pagans think the dragon is some sort of hero because they think he is an angel called Lucifer, which if that were true would mean he is a lightbringer that brought them some sort of secret knowledge of civilization and all that. It can only be corroborated with such pagan myths such as Prometheus in hellenism or Iblis in islam. This is also a quite curious heresy in that it is common to the beliefs of the Pharisees, the false jews that practice Babylonian magic (kabbalah), various known heretics, and within pagan religions. It is also curious as the Bible says Satan masquerades and transforms to appear as an angel of light (how can he masquerade if he really were?) Many of the false religions in the AD were started by deceived men and women that supposedly had a visit from what they thought was an angel of light (Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Ellen White, etc.) Yet that strange being told them all lies, even tortured them in some cases, and they all contain the Lucifer heresy as an essential doctrine of their false religion. It shows how the dragon cannot testify against himself, but must make a pseudo-satan strawman to deceive them, which is the Lucifer heresy.

The Bible tells a much different story and is unique in being the only doctrine of truth. Bible says right in Genesis 3, the first mention of Satan, that he was a subtle beast of the field that told three lies, the first sins and three evil spirits, which caused the world, man, and even himself to fall. Perhaps this be why the dragon will be wrathful when he is cast to earth for he will know his time short. Note also how when God is listening to Adam and Eve's excuses in Genesis 3 for why they ate the fruit that he gives Satan no chance to speak but curses him above all animals, for that is what Satan is, an animal, a dragon specifically. This is corroborated also in Revelation.

It shows how the Lucifer heresy is a dangerous heresy for as with other heresies it would have you believe the Bible does not mean what it says. The Lucifer heresy makes the Bible meaningless and flips its narrative on its head as it would allege a fall and sin before the actual fall and sin entered the world. It would make it seem as God is a liar in Genesis 1&2 when it says that God made everything and it was good. In fact the Lucifer heresy is the most dangerous heresy as it causes the deceived adherent to inadvertently praise our Enemy as the greatest creation, and the dawnbringer.

All can be forgiven though for according to the Bible man is God's most favored creation being made in his image, that God had compassion on Adam and Eve, that God desires all men be saved, and the blessed Father sent his only begotten Son, Jesus, to save us because the Father loves us, praise to Jesus, praise to the Father.

Is · Jan 14, 2016

GodIsSalvation said:

There is evidence that God is speaking through his prophet Isaiah to someone other than the king of Babylon, even though it starts out to that person. Ezekiel 28 is an excellent example. It begins by talking about a human being ruling as the king of
Tyrus (Tyre). Then the scene shifts and the devil behind the king starts to take focus.

First God addresses the king called the "prince of Tyre":

"The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though set thine heart as the heart of God"

Then to the devil behind the prince, called the "king of Tyrus" Ezekiel 28:1-2

"Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was they covering, the sardius, topaz, the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emrald, the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in that day that thou wast created. Thou art an anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering chrub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy reason of thy {{brightness}}: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." Ezekiel 28:11-17

There is no one in Tyre that was in Eden or the mountain of God. No one there was a cheurb (type of angel). No one there was "created." This is satan, Lucifer, the serpent, the dragon, the devil. satan/Lucifer/the serpent/the dragon was a cherub, an angel. He was created, since angels are created, not born. Humans were born after Adam and Eve, not created. He was in the garden of God, Eden. He was the "covering cherub." He was "bright" as an angel of light (see 2Cor.11:14).

The same thing is happening in Isaiah 14. Isaiah begins talking to the physical king of Babylon, then afterward to the spirit behind him.

It starts out to the king:

"...thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the opressor ceased! The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no fellar is come against us" Isaiah 14:4-8

Then it changes tone:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thous cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Isaiah 14:12-15

The scriptures tell us who this is. Jesus said:

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightening fall from the heaven. Behold, I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpians, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you, but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:18-20

Revelation also leaves no doubt as to who fell from heaven:

"And there was in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out,that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which decieveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitant of the earth and the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:7-12

So we know that the only ones in the Bible that fell from heaven are the devil and his angels. These are the ones for whom "everlasting fire," the lake of fire was made:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10

And by the way, tsk, tsk for using extra-Biblical Luciferian evidence to support your claim.

GodIsSalvation · Jan 14, 2016

@IS Lol Ezekiel 28 also is not about Satan. Says unambiguously right in the chapter it's about the Prince & King of Tyre as well as the land of Zidon ( where city of Tyre was) lol. Also Ezekiel is lamenting the king of Tyre, God never laments over Satan, but says he is cursed above all animals.

Revelation 12 is a future event not one of the past. Also Revelation 12 says Satan is a dragon, even that old serpent, called Satan and Devil. (note absence of Lucifer)

Also did not use unbiblical sources to make my point, merely pointing out how only the unbiblical sources, the heretics, pagans, and pharisees believed satan is a fallen angel named Lucifer and that their origins are from deceived false prophets that curiously thought the same thing and claimed to have an encounter with an angel of light that lied to them telling them the same thing. Whereas within the Bible alone Satan is always described as a dragon, the Devil, or Satan and that according to Bible the dragon pretends to be an angel of light (remember Lucifer means lightbringer) and so is a tell tale sign the founders of such false religions and heresy were likely deceived directly by the devil.

JesusIsAll · Jan 14, 2016

GodIsSalvation said:

Huh? Whut?! Better take care: you may be spending too much time, hanging with Nimrod. If this ain't Satany, I don't know what is!

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

GodIsSalvation · Jan 14, 2016

JesusIsAll said:

Underlined in your quote for you who Ezekiel 28 is lamenting. Also Lucifer isn't even used in Ezekiel 28, so not sure why the luciferians always cite it as if it were some sort of proof and was even remotely connected to Isaiah 14, different people, diferent lands, different tone of the prophecy (note prophecies foretell, not back-tell lol).

And also to shut the case on Isaiah 14.

Isaiah 14:16

[SUP]16 [/SUP]They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

JesusIsAll · Jan 14, 2016

GodIsSalvation said:

Just suppose, like the antichrist, the king of Tyrus were full of Satan, an archetype of the son of perdition. But we should even less consider this, as prophecy is very often inserted in scripture text that also speaks to some contemporaneous time, like "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" in the middle of Isaiah 7-8, which is more a narrative of a contemporaneous child. Historic context is often departed from, to unveil something about the future in God's word, or past, cosmic revelations, mixed with narratives of earth.

prove-all · Jan 14, 2016

Revelation 1:19 (KJV)

Write the things which thou hast [seen],
and the things which [are],
and the things which [shall be] hereafter;

prove-all · Jan 14, 2016

Daniel taught Nebuchadnezzar that “there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets”
(Daniel 2:28).

This prophet chastened himself before God gave him those secrets
(Daniel 10:3-5, 12).

Those secrets opened Daniel to Satan’s most vicious attack!

“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one
and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes,
came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of
Persia” (Daniel 10:13).

Satan fought against the two great archangels, Michael and Gabriel, for 21 days.
It took that long for God’s two most powerful archangels to prevail!

Satan was trying to prevent God’s secrets from being revealed.

“Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people
in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days” (verse 14).

This vision was for the latter days—the time we are living in now.
In fact, the whole book is for this end time (Daniel 12:4, 9).

Satan tried extremely hard to keep God’s vision from being revealed to Daniel.

Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee?
and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth,
lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will show thee that which is noted in the
scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things,
but Michael your prince” (Daniel 10:18-21).

The prince of Persia is Satan. Here Satan is struggling to change the mind of
a Persian king and shift world power to work out his Earth-ruling strategy.

But before Satan did that, he tried to destroy God’s secrets given to Daniel!
His first priority is always to attack God’s people—God’s secrets.

Both archangels, Michael and Gabriel, are fighting against a very powerful devil.
The demons, “rulers of the darkness,” fight and wrestle for men’s minds—
especially the minds of God’s own people! (Ephesians 6:12).

JesusIsAll · Jan 14, 2016

prove-all said:

Yes, prophecy is prophecy, can be of the past, present or future. The entirety of the likes of creation in Genesis was long past, before penned. And prophecy can be any declaration of divine inspiration, whatsoever. For instance, it's also prophecy, to proclaim the Beatitudes.

GodIsSalvation · Jan 14, 2016

prove-all said:

Things that are from what time? The total beginning or from John's writing? Lol for Revelation of all the books, that's to come. Chapter 12 is yet to happen as it sets the stage for the Chapter 13 and also that's when stuff goes from super bad to uber-bad, but it's all good in the end, for Jesus returns.

Daniel is good to consider for that which will happen before all that and those events also, in fact we are admonished to consider what Daniel wrote, let the reader understand.

Lol but we've really spun off the tangent now lol.

Daniel 12:8-13

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

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