How to Recognize a Mixed-Grace Gospel

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If one is truly born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit...they will not want to go away from the Lord..it's in our nature..we have His nature now which is life.

We already activated our free will and we freely choose to be with Him...our new nature is to want to be with Him...we are a new creation in Christ now....we have His desires and life in us....it's wonderful!

Truly born again? Is there such a thing as untruly born again? Is that like being half pregnant?

All who have been baptized into Christ are part of the new covenant, and are "born again". What they do with that new life is their business, and GOD is not one to preempt their will. So, yes, some people after they have been "born again" choose death over life, because they decide that they love the world more than GOD.

 

[royalscot]

you have, no choice, see a saviour saved you. not the other way about. (when you understand this.)etc

even if you repent, who are you repenting to. would that be a saviour. or the god of the old testament.

history has showed the change, try and catch up. etc

 

[royalscot]

Truly born again? Is there such a thing as untruly born again? Is that like being half pregnant?

All who have been baptized into Christ are part of the new covenant, and are "born again". What they do with that new life is their business, and GOD is not one to preempt their will. So, yes, some people after they have been "born again" choose death over life, because they decide that they love the world more than GOD.

define untruly born again.

 

[PeterJens]

here is a grace--based teaching on the finished work oof Christ concerning this so-called " cut off " the branches..

What Happens to Unfruitful Branches?

Jesus said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15, NASB). In the hands of a religious person this becomes a conditional statement: You have to keep the commands of Jesus to prove your love. The problem with that, however, is the commands of Jesus are impossible to keep.

The interpretation Grace7x77 is putting on scripture is just contradicting the words.
First statement is it is impossible to keep Jesus commands. Jesus is saying if you follow Him, are empowered by the Holy Spirit you will be able to keep Jesus's commands. It is not proving following Jesus, it is the fulfillment of that reality.

The unfruitful branch is "taken away". The reality is in all the parables the lazy servant, the unprepared servant is thrown out and punished.

What amazes me is why anyone thinks they are unfruitful or in this position. Jesus is emphasizing it is a choice.
And the fruit Jesus is talking about is the effect and changes that happen as a result of following Jesus.

How is it the Lords people are fearful of loosing their faith and being rejected as unworthy of the Lord?
Is the new birth such an insignificant event, and the Lord impacts their lives so little they doubt anything has happened at all?

I would suggest the reality of walking with Jesus is not actually being preached or experienced by many though they are standing at the door. Too few are being honest and open about their struggles, their issues with love, belonging, hurt, loneliness, so are living in denial of Jesus's love for them or the love their fellow believers have.

 

[royalscot]

45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.Luke 7 (there is also , a lesson in the words underlined )

easy to see if you know what your looking for.

50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace. etc "Luke 7:

 

[notuptome]

define untruly born again.

Mental ascent lacking Holy Spirit conviction. Produced by the will of man not the will of God.

No man comes to Christ except the Father draw them. Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment. Born again is by the will of God not the will of man.

John 1:12-13, John 6:44, John 16:8-11

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[royalscot]

The interpretation Grace7x77 is putting on scripture is just contradicting the words.
First statement is it is impossible to keep Jesus commands. Jesus is saying if you follow Him, are empowered by the Holy Spirit you will be able to keep Jesus's commands. It is not proving following Jesus, it is the fulfillment of that reality.

The unfruitful branch is "taken away". The reality is in all the parables the lazy servant, the unprepared servant is thrown out and punished.

What amazes me is why anyone thinks they are unfruitful or in this position. Jesus is emphasizing it is a choice.
And the fruit Jesus is talking about is the effect and changes that happen as a result of following Jesus.

How is it the Lords people are fearful of loosing their faith and being rejected as unworthy of the Lord?
Is the new birth such an insignificant event, and the Lord impacts their lives so little they doubt anything has happened at all?

I would suggest the reality of walking with Jesus is not actually being preached or experienced by many though they are standing at the door. Too few are being honest and open about their struggles, their issues with love, belonging, hurt, loneliness, so are living in denial of Jesus's love for them or the love their fellow believers have.

hello. want to answer some of the thing i asked you.

 

[royalscot]

Mental ascent lacking Holy Spirit conviction. Produced by the will of man not the will of God.

No man comes to Christ except the Father draw them. Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment. Born again is by the will of God not the will of man.

John 1:12-13, John 6:44, John 16:8-11

For the cause of Christ
Roger

a believer is already saved from sin.
Romans 8: Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death

conviction of sin. are you on the same planet.

 

[notuptome]

The interpretation Grace7x77 is putting on scripture is just contradicting the words.
First statement is it is impossible to keep Jesus commands. Jesus is saying if you follow Him, are empowered by the Holy Spirit you will be able to keep Jesus's commands. It is not proving following Jesus, it is the fulfillment of that reality.

The unfruitful branch is "taken away". The reality is in all the parables the lazy servant, the unprepared servant is thrown out and punished.

What amazes me is why anyone thinks they are unfruitful or in this position. Jesus is emphasizing it is a choice.
And the fruit Jesus is talking about is the effect and changes that happen as a result of following Jesus.

How is it the Lords people are fearful of loosing their faith and being rejected as unworthy of the Lord?
Is the new birth such an insignificant event, and the Lord impacts their lives so little they doubt anything has happened at all?

I would suggest the reality of walking with Jesus is not actually being preached or experienced by many though they are standing at the door. Too few are being honest and open about their struggles, their issues with love, belonging, hurt, loneliness, so are living in denial of Jesus's love for them or the love their fellow believers have.

The unfruitful branch is not in the vine. If it were in the vine it would produce fruit. Because if is not in the vine it is gathered and burned.

If you read out of the scriptures what is in them instead of reading into the scriptures what you want to be there you will arrive at the correct conclusion instead of convenient error.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[FreeNChrist]

I got to admire this deception.

Jesus said "If you obey my commands you love me."

The truth is hyper-grace do not agree. But it is more political to admit you obey believing in Jesus.
Funnily Jesus never commanded anyone to believe in Him, it is if you believe you will gain eternal life.

Now if people walk righteously through the inner man then amen, but this to me is just words or theology.
The key question is the standard is walk in righteousness to follow Jesus.

Let me me nip this in the bud right now. The new covenant concept of "obedience" is not law-based obedience that focuses on keeping rules and regulations, as the old covenant concept did. The Greek word for "obedience" is hupakouo, which means "to listen under." Christians are responsible to "listen under" the Lord to allow Him to reveal what He wants to do next in our life. And we actually can hear His voice if we are his sheep.

 

[notuptome]

a believer is already saved from sin.
Romans 8: Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death

conviction of sin. are you on the same planet.

I am speaking to those who profess what they do not possess.

Demons believe but are not saved. Mat 8:29

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[royalscot]

I am speaking to those who profess what they do not possess.

Demons believe but are not saved. Mat 8:29

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

define demon, ie some of the things call demon, in the bible, are now called an illness in 2016. ie epilepsy for example.

 

[PeterJens]

How is it the hyper-grace crowd appeal to the weakest, the most uncertain, those who are not sure they are following Christ or are disallusioned with following Jesus and listening to His words. The argument is you are unfruitful but we can make you fruitful, it is because you have been following the wrong gospel.

What is obvious is they are prepared to change and distort what they really believe to agree with scripture until they have people on their side. And those who follow their ideas are really hurt and bitter over their experiences in their churches over many years. Rather than accepting it is their sin and wrong spiritual approach it is the legalism or judgementalism of the fellowships they belonged to.

This is a parasitical process, not bringing new life or regeneration but cycling believers from one fellowship to another.
The truth of real spiritual reality is when the unsaved find the Lord. It does not appear to be the people we are meeting here and certainly I would never follow this worldly version of christianity.

 

[PeterJens]

Let me me nip this in the bud right now. The new covenant concept of "obedience" is not law-based obedience that focuses on keeping rules and regulations, as the old covenant concept did. The Greek word for "obedience" is hupakouo, which means "to listen under." Christians are responsible to "listen under" the Lord to allow Him to reveal what He wants to do next in our life. And we actually can hear His voice if we are his sheep.

Let me me nip this in the bud right now.

You are redefining language to mean whatever you want. When Jesus says His words are eternal, He is saying His words are eternal, not reinterpreted and changed by taking the meaning of the words as spoken and then making them something different. That is just called lying.

Now you are obviously given the free will to lie, but it is very stupid to lie about Jesus's words when it is obvious to the reader. Once you are prepared to accept lies to this degree you can make the bible say anything because it is actually just a shell that the speaker fills. Only the father of lies could deceive people so completely, in plain sight.

So badly you want to remove this condemnation of obedience you will accept any excuse. That is what emotions do to resolve an impossible burden to keep the person feeling everything is ok. Everyone over powered by the burden of the commands and self condemnation feel this release and escape, and the cost, just change the meaning a little.

You are a 100% blind guide, a lost soul and you do not even see it.
We will never agree simply because for you to agree with us would cause you to emotionally fall apart and face you failure, and whatever it is based upon.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader, notice the arrogance. Jesus did not mean what he is saying, he means something totally different, because obeying Jesus's commands empowered by the Holy Spirit is impossible.

Strangely over 2,000 years generation after generation of christians have found it possible.
What they have found impossible is stay in the world, lusting after wealth, health and success and follow the Lord.

As Jesus says you cannot serve two masters.

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matt 6:24

Little wonder they cannot obey and find the subtlety of wealth makes them unfruitful.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Let me me nip this in the bud right now.

You are redefining language to mean whatever you want. When Jesus says His words are eternal, He is saying His words are eternal, not reinterpreted and changed by taking the meaning of the words as spoken and then making them something different. That is just called lying.

Now you are obviously given the free will to lie, but it is very stupid to lie about Jesus's words when it is obvious to the reader. Once you are prepared to accept lies to this degree you can make the bible say anything because it is actually just a shell that the speaker fills. Only the father of lies could deceive people so completely, in plain sight.

So badly you want to remove this condemnation of obedience you will accept any excuse. That is what emotions do to resolve an impossible burden to keep the person feeling everything is ok. Everyone over powered by the burden of the commands and self condemnation feel this release and escape, and the cost, just change the meaning a little.

You are a 100% blind guide, a lost soul and you do not even see it.
We will never agree simply because for you to agree with us would cause you to emotionally fall apart and face you failure, and whatever it is based upon.

No. I am simply explaining to you the Christian understanding of obedience.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Dear reader, notice the arrogance. Jesus did not mean what he is saying, he means something totally different, because obeying Jesus's commands empowered by the Holy Spirit is impossible.

Strangely over 2,000 years generation after generation of christians have found it possible.
What they have found impossible is stay in the world, lusting after wealth, health and success and follow the Lord.

As Jesus says you cannot serve two masters.

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matt 6:24

Little wonder they cannot obey and find the subtlety of wealth makes them unfruitful.

How do you obey Christ?

 

[Jimbone]

Jimbone..maybe this might help as far as the "if" part.....

A very big factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" we use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..so they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ . they would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Then there is more..lol..there seems to be more sometimes eh?..just what are His commandments anyway?..Be perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect?...can we possibly do that?..of course not..that is Moses 2.0

Ahhh..found His commandments

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

...the "lens" that we view scriptures greatly affects us. Religious traditions of men, philosophies of men, ..what we were told all our lives in church or in the world etc. ..all influence how we view scripture. Sometimes some of our "sacred cows" can get sacrificed and it's painful.

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

...just throwin' in out there for us to ponder......

I thought about everything being said here and it's hard for me to put in words, but I think I have been able to ask it in a pretty easy question. Do you think that when we are saved, that being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, strips us of our free will? Even though I don't see how it would ever be possible for me to reject God now personally, do you think that I am now "not allowed" or "completely incapable" of the choice to reject Him? In a manner of speaking I really don't feel I ever could, but at the same time how I understand scripture and know God, I do think I still reserve the right to reject Him if for whatever reason I came to feel that way. I don't dwell on it or think about it outside of these debates, but I do think I am still free to. Do you agree or disagree with that? (that I still have a choice God will respect)

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree that you have a free will.....and I also believe your free will if born again will always want Jesus....it's in your new nature now...

What do you think about this question...you have a free will now...can you change by your free will to be unborn now as a human being?..we know the answer is of course not....perhaps within that answer is your answer to the being born from God free will question and changing that "borness" ( if that is even a word..lol ) by an act of your free will.....

I thought about everything being said here and it's hard for me to put in words, but I think I have been able to ask it in a pretty easy question. Do you think that when we are saved, that being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, strips us of our free will? Even though I don't see how it would ever be possible for me to reject God now personally, do you think that I am now "not allowed" or "completely incapable" of the choice to reject Him? In a manner of speaking I really don't feel I ever could, but at the same time how I understand scripture and know God, I do think I still reserve the right to reject Him if for whatever reason I came to feel that way. I don't dwell on it or think about it outside of these debates, but I do think I am still free to. Do you agree or disagree with that? (that I still have a choice God will respect)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree that you have a free will.....and I also believe your free will if born again will always want Jesus....it's in your new nature now...

What do you think about this question...you have a free will now...can you change by your free will to be unborn now as a human being?..we know the answer is of course not....perhaps within that answer is your answer to the being born from God free will question and changing that "borness" ( if that is even a word..lol ) by an act of your free will.....

This idea is inline with the gnostic belief that the new nature (new birth) was incorruptible by any means. Gnostics thought that grace was a spiritual 'substance' that could not be taken away from them, just as you are suggesting that the new birth can't be undone. This is essentially salvation by grace apart from faith. This was described in another thread like his: faith is a one-time event to be saved, but grace is eternal.