Revelation Timeline

[PlainWord]

Hello Plainword,

When the abomination, which I believe is synonymous with the image that is made of the first beast mentioned in Rev.13:14-15, this causes the desolation, which is when those who are in Judea flee into the wilderness (desolation) when they see the abomination standing in the holy place. This desolation mentioned here in Mt.24:15-21 is synonymous with the woman/Israel fleeing out into the wilderness in Rev.12:6, 14. To be clear, when the abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple, which will be an image of the first beast, then those in the Jerusalem and the surrounding area will flee (make desolate) to that place that God will have prepared for them, where they will be cared for and remain for that last 3 1/2 years until the return of the Lord to end the age at the end of that last 3 1/2 years.

I agree with most of this. However, the "Abomination of Desolation" doesn't mean what you think (or what I used to think). I used to think that the Abomination caused Desolation. Not so. The "Abomination is of the Desolation." As I mentioned above and as Paul teaches in Gal 4:21-31 the Desolate are the Children of Hagar/Ishmael. They are the Desolate.

Therefore the Abomination is of Muslims and/or relates to Islam.

As to where it is "set up" is debatable. If you look closely, Jesus does not use the word "temple" in either Mat 24 or Mrk 13.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Jesus could have said, "Temple" if indeed there is to be a third temple and indeed if that was to be the location. Instead Jesus calls it, "the Holy Place" and "Where it ought not." That is very telling to me and enforces the fact that there is no prophesy of a third man-made temple. It is only assumed by many because of these passages.

I concur with you that the below from Rev 13 is a very strong candidate to be referencing the A of D:

that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This Muslim/Islamic "Image to the Beast" (of the Sea) which "comes to life, speaks and kills those whom won't worship/serve it" sure does sound like it will be the A of D. I'm with you on that. Where I am not with you on is that it is placed in a Third Jewish Man-Made Temple.

And, I am not in agreement (If you are one who believes this passage proves a 3rd Temple also):

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is something else. It could be, and is likely, related but this is not the same event. I say this because it is the Man of Sin sitting as God in God's Temple here. The Man of Sin isn't placing an image there. There is no mention of people in Judea fleeing in this passage. My contention is that the 2 Thes 2 event is the Man of Sin taking God's Throne in Heaven declaring to be God in Heaven. My contention is this is what triggers the War which breaks out in Heaven and the final casting down to earth and the massive rage with which the dragon has which he takes out on the earth when he gets here which is called, "The Great Tribulation."

The Great Tribulation officially begins after the Man of Sin comes to earth and sets up the A of D image in "the holy place, where it ought not" be. The GT begins when this image comes to life and demands to be worshiped.

This is so important!! THE TRIGGER FOR THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS THE SETTING UP OF THE ABOMINATION OF (the) DESOLATION (or desolate). Our God does not do this!! Satan does this.

We agree (I think) who needs to flee - it is "those in Judea."

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Yes, that is what it says. God is not out to harm those who live in Judea. In fact it is Jesus who warns them to flee. If God was targeting the Jews in Judea with His wrath, why would Jesus warn them to flee the wrath? It makes no sense and defies all logic. Thus, the Great Tribulation is of Satan - Satan sets up the A of D (Whatever this image is) and Satan rallies his Muslim hordes to attack "those in Judea." That is why they are warned to flee.

Again, the GT is first aimed at the Jews. It says so here:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

As you point out, The WOMAN (which is Israel) goes to the Mountains (Nations) where she is kept from the serpent. The Serpent is angry then wages war with her offspring. Daniel confirms:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Notice Daniel calls it "A TIME OF TROUBLE." Who else calls it a "TIME OF TROUBLE?" How about Jeremiah?

Jer 30: [SUP]3 [/SUP]For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


See the same references to being "with child" that Jesus uses? Notice this happens AFTER Israel is brought back from the nations as in now?

THUS THE GREAT TRIBULATION is the TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE.

It is Israel which goes through the Great Tribulation. God rescues Jacob from this Great Tribulation. Do you now see this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

..........

Originally Posted by GRA

The following list of phrases, taken from the above quoted verses, is listed in chronological order of fulfillment of the events associated with each phrase:

and to anoint the most Holy

This is referring to Jesus -- I believe - at His baptism. Secondarily, in a broader sense after His resurrection and ascension.

I agree, and believe it will be completed when he splits the mountain in two and assume his place on Davids throne. After he (the rock) destroys the gentiles kingdoms (statue of Nebuchadnezzar's statue)

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

'he' is Jesus; the covenant is [ directly ] the old covenant, and [ indirectly ] the new covenant.

He is of the people who destroy Israel in 70 AD. the prince who is to come, WHo will be defeated by Christ himself at the end of Daniel 9. when all is fulfilled.

shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

This is referring to the events of the passion - the crucifixion in particular.

Agree

to finish the transgression

This is referring to the crucifixion as the "finishing of the transgression" of Israel.

This makes no sense, And makes a mockery of prophesy, The transgression of Isreal was not complete. if anything, it was punished severely in 70 AD, and continues until this day. Israel has yet to repent, as Paul said in rom 11. They are blinded in part. But when the time of the gentile is complete. they will repent.

and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness

These things were accomplished by Christ by His death, burial, and resurrection -- not just for Israel, but for all...

No, it has not. There is still prophesy to be fulfilled. Israel is still in sin, The age of the gentile is not yet completed. And Jerusalem still lies desolate (in Gentile hands)

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

This is referring to the aftermath of the renting of the veil at His death on the cross.

Yet sacrifice continued until 70 AD. And even today, Irael is getting all aspects ready so they can start offering sacrifice again when the new temple is built

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate ( even until the consummation )

'he' is Jesus; because of various abominations involving the temple, He caused the temple to be destroyed.

how can it be Jesus?
1. He said the one who will commit the abomination is a future event,
2. An abomination which causes desolation to a jew is an unclean thing, which makes the inner sanctuary unclean. Daniel spoke of two abomination,s this one in chapter 9, and one of another little horn, We know today as antiochus epiphenies, Who sacrified a pig (unclean thing) and made the inner sanctuary unclean and desolate.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

This is 70 A.D.

Yes, This is true.

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

This is referring to the aftermath of the desolation of the temple.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

This is 70-73 A.D.

This is also spoken of By Jesus, A time called Wars and rumors of wars. Nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. (war desolation) Until a time determined by Jesus, which will start wiht the abomination which starts desolation by the futur eworld leader, who will declare himself to be God. It is still ongoing even today.

and to seal up the vision and prophecy

"All of the prophecy and vision is fulfilled by the end of the 490 years..."

( I left the 'consummation' phrase where it is because it is an "extension" of the phrase in front of it. )

The 'abominations' phrase is the "decree" that brings about the line that follows it.

A similar association exists for the next two lines.

You absolutely must learn that Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse, phrase-by-phrase, chronological order. Just because something comes first in a passage of scripture - does not make it first chronologically.

You must pay attention to the "grammar of the language" --- it is the key thing that will help you understand what a passage of scripture is actually saying... ( or not saying )

"Just sayin'..."





You need to take your own advice, And also realise, when you interpret scripture Interpret it as a person to whome it was given would interpret it. No jew would ever interpret it the way you did. now would they, The prophesy concerns them and their city and their temple.. Anything outside of this, is adding to prophesy

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hello Dave,

The confusion here is that you are not making a distinction between Christ's appearing to gather the church to take us back to the Father's house/heaven, which takes place prior to the first seal being opened, in opposition to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, which takes place some time after the 7th bowl has been poured out. These are two separate events which are at least seven years apart.

Everything you say here is spectulation, that is where the confusion is. You teach that Christ comes back a second time and also a third time. Scriptures does not teach that. You teach that Christ takes the Church to be in His Father House before the first seal is broken. Scriptures does not teach that. You teach that Christ comes back a third time to end the Age and that happens at after the last bowl has been poured out, Scriptures does not teach that. You teach the time difference between Jesus coming the second time and the third time is 7 years, Scriptures does not teach that. These things are what you teach, these things comes from you and not from Scriptures. How do you try the spirits to see who is teaching Truth and who is teaching false? By if what they say contradicts Scriptures. Scriptures plainly teaches that Jesus comes back a second time, you teach He comes back and then leaves again to come back again a third time. Scriptures teach that Jesus comes back to get the Church at the 7th Trumpet, you teach that He comes back to get the Church before the first seal is broken. You teach things that are Plainly contrary to Scriptures therefore NOT TRUE. So then you are confused because you do not believe the TRUTH when it is presented to you, because you hold on to your false teachings which is indeed contrary to Scriptures.

What God told DiscipleDave

The Church is caught up with Christ at the 7th Trumpet Sounding, That is Scriptural and is the TRUTH.

Regarding the above, there is nothing in scripture that even mentions the church being caught up at the 7th trumpet. I have an idea of what you are talking about here though, as this is a well known false teaching. Correct me if I am wrong, but you making the "last trumpet" synonymous with the 7th trumpet. There are a few major problems with this interpretation, which I will list below:

Should i believe you or what God told me? How is it my fault if you do not believe God speaks to people in the last days? But let us look at your excuses not to believe the Word of God

Excuse #

1.) The word "trumpet" is not exclusive to the 7th trumpet, as there are many trumpets throughout scripture. That being said, just because there are seven trumpets does not automatically make the 7th trumpet the "last trumpet." That would be to read into the scripture what is not there, that is, an assumption on your part.

Are you saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the verse that says at the last Trump, that it could be referring to the last of the series of trumpets in Revelation? IMPOSSIBLE? How is that not an assumption on YOUR part?

EXCUSE #

2.) In support of #1, the trumpet judgments are exactly that, they are judgments of God's wrath and there are no blessings associated with any of the seals, trumpet, or bowl judgments. In addition, the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets are also referred to as woes because of their severity and therefore, there certainly is not going to be the blessing of the resurrection and catching away mixed in with the 7th trumpet/3rd woe.

Know you not that the 7th Trumpet is JUDGMENT DAY. This is the Day that if your name is not written in the Book of Life you are left behind, you are judged unworthy to be taken. This is a great day of sorrow, a great day of mourning, many will be weeping and gnashing their teeth on this Day. the 7th Trumpet is most certainly a Judgment. You teach their is no blessing associated with the seals, Trumpets and bowel judgments. But what does the Scriptures teach, which you seemed to have missed entirely because of your false statement. Concerning the 7th Trumpet, tell me how these are NOT blessings

The Mystery of God is finished. Rev 10:7
The Kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ Rev 11:15
Rewards are given to the Servants, the Prophets, the Saints Rev 11:18
The Temple of God is OPENED in Heaven Rev 11:19

All these things are BLESSINGS that will happen during the 7th TRUMPET sounding, but you say there are NONE. Should we believe YOU or the Word of God?

Excuse #

3.) Nowhere in scripture at the sounding of the 7th trumpet is there any mention of a resurrection and catching away. Again, these are trumpet judgments and there is no blessings associated with them.

Again, you are wrong and won't admit it. You say "Nowhere in Scripture at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet there are any mention of a resurrection and catching away. But Scriptures says and teaches this:

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is it my fault satan has blinded you to the Truth of this Scripture. It plainly says and teaches a Trumpet shall sound, and it teaches that it is the last trumpet to sound, and it also teaches that it is at this last trumpet that the dead are raised. Now is there any confirmation that the 7th Trumpet being blown in Revelation also talks about the dead being raised? Why YES it does.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There you have it, children could grasp the simplicity in this teaching. Scriptures are TRUE, what men teach are lies and false.

EXCUSE #

4.) You will not find the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" anywhere from Rev.4 onward, but only the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3, you will never see the word "Saints" but only the word "Church." God is making a distinction here between the church and the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. During the entire narrative of God's wrath, the word "Church" is never used, but only the word "Saints."

Who told you, if not satan, that this is a good method to interpret the Word of God? Just because something is not mentioned from this point to that point, does not make it FACT, as you are now teaching. You teach because X is not mentioned from this point to that point that it means X is not present. You do greatly error in this method of interpretation, as if interpretation belonged to men to begin with. Satan uses that method to cause confusion. Interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN. But apparently you think it belongs to YOU, because you teach "Since X is not mentioned from this point to that point, then X is not present" HOW is that not YOUR interpretation of the Word of God and what it means. Satan has blinded the men of this generation from the TRUTH, so much so that even when Scriptures PROVES they are wrong, they refuse to yield from their current beliefs.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

So then because it is written that the great day of His wrath comes during the 6th seal, and it is at the 6th seal that His Wrath begins, EXACTLY like Scriptures plainly teaches,

Regarding the above, the problem is that you are looking at that announcement in the wrong way. You think, as well as others, that it is only after the announcement that the great day of their wrath will come, that is that the wrath is restricted to everything that takes place after the announcement, which is a false assumption! The words "has come" includes the events of the seals and what is still to take place. The words "has come" is in the Aorist which means:

(especially in Greek) an unqualified past tense of a verb without reference to duration or completion of the action

Therefore, the words "has come" includes what will have already taken place, namely the seals, as well as the wrath that is still to come, which will be the trumpets and bowl judgments.

Brother do you even hear yourself? Scriptures plainly teaches that at the 6th Seal, the Great Day of His Wrath has come. But because you do not agree with what Scriptures teaches, you have come up with all that you say above, to CHANGE that verse to fit your own belief, Can't you see that? Are you so blinded, that you do not see that you are doing that?

DiscipleDave said

All the Kingdoms now belong to Christ, There is Time no more. Read the description of the seventh Trumpet for yourself and see if it is not a description of Jesus Returning to the Earth, the Rapture.

And yet, according to scripture, after the 7th trumpet is sounded, there are seven bowl judgments of God's wrath left to be poured out. And we know that Christ doesn't return until after the last bowl judgment has been poured out and that because after the 6th bowl judgment has been poured out, Jesus interjects with the following:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed"

Therefore, the sounding of the 7th trumpet does not end God's wrath and that because there are seven bowl judgments yet to take place.

Brother, YOU and NOT Scriptures teaches that Jesus comes back AFTER the 7 bowl judgments. Here is what Scriptures plainly teach. At the 7th Trumpet Christ Returns to the Earth. Then the 7 bowls are poured out on the Earth. YOU teach that Christ comes back AFTER the 7 bowl Judgements, that is coming from you mind, your interpretations of the Scriptures, that is NOT what Scriptures teach. Scriptures teach that Jesus Returns at the Last Trumpet, when He is here. Scriptures teach that all nations will come against Him, After the 7th Trumpet is blown, the 7 bowls are poured out to wipe out the wicked that were not taken up with Christ.

DiscipleDave said

At the time satan is thrown in the lake of Fire and Brimstone the unsaved will also be thrown in the Fire and Brimstone. satan is judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

I would have to disagree with you on that as well

You just don't get it do you? You keep thinking in your mind for some reason that the things i teach are coming from me, even when i have told you the TRUTH, that they are from God, what He has told me. You do not disagree with me, but with HIM who told me those things.

Sorry Brother Ahwatukee but i am done saying the same things over and over to you. i have repeatedly given you Scriptures that shows what you believe is incorrect. You have yet to do that for me. i have asked many time over and over again for you to show me any Scriptures which contradicts what i teach, all you do is give your opinions, your interpretation, your beliefs, but NOT Scriptures. You have altogether taken it upon yourself to interpret the Word of God as YOU see it. And when i tell you something that God has told me, you do not believe. Is it not written the sheep will know His Voice. What i tell you is what He has told me, and you do not believe what He has told me, because the Truth is not in you, if it were in you, You would believe the SCRIPTURES, but you believe your OWN interpretation, you have come up with what you believe is the TRUTH. i have shown you Scriptures which PROVES what you believe is incorrect, i have not lied to you. It is written that all liars shall burn in the lake of fire and brimstone, i tell you that what i teach is from God, what He has told me, if i lie, then i will burn in the lake of fire and brimstone. But i tell you the Truth which you refuse to believe, because and only because what i teach is contrary to what YOU believe is the TRUTH. I'm done with unfruitful communication, the only reason i have continued with you as long as i have is for the sake of others who will read this, and they can determine for themselves the TRUTH. i will pray for you as i would hope you pray for me. i will continue to answer you, but it will be brief and not near indepth as before, how many time can i say to you that God told me he will come at the 7th Trumpet, and then the 7 vials are poured out. How many times can i tell you that He told me that when He comes at the 7th Trumpet He will be bringing with Him the New City Jerusalem, and it will be at that time He sets up His Kingdom on EARTH. So then if you can't show something that i have just said is contrary to Scriptures then what is there to talk about?

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

i will repeat what i have asked for people to do.



Please just show me Scriptures which PROVES something in the picture is not accurate. This entire post is showing personal opinions, personal interpretations, personal thoughts, and personal beliefs. And not one Scripture that proves what is in the diagram is wrong.

^i^

Let's see. I referred to these Scriptures directly... Dan.8; Rev.13; 2 Thess.2; 1 Cor.15; Rev.11; Rev.20; Rev.22; Zech.14; Rev.6; Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21; Ezek.47; Rev.7; Rev.14; Rev.15; Isaiah 25;...

... and indirectly to Dan.9 & 11 about the AOD; Rev.16 about Armageddon; Eph.4:30 about the sealing being by The Holy Spirit; ...

... and you say I'm only giving you opinions without Scripture basis???

The truth of the matter more likely is you're not willing to look at those Scriptures and weigh what I've said, because it would upset those errors you have in your timeline that do NOT keep to those Scriptures.

This is what you replied:

Line 1. on the first about the two 3.5 years periods, you'll find in Dan.8 a 2300 day period mentioned covering the time of sacrifice and transgression of desolation (AOD), basically meaning the whole prophecy. So count back from the very end of the second 3.5 years period 2300 days. (2300 minus 1260 days = 1040 into the first 3.5 years period. Then 1260 days of the first 3.5 year period minus 1040 days = 220 days). Certain events are to occur within the first 220 days of the start of the first 3.5 year period. Then other events between the 220 days and the end of 1260 days of the first 3.5 year period. Then the AOD is setup where you have it, and the latter 3.5 years begins.

i asked you to show me Scriptures which proves something that is in the timeline is not correct. For line one you say the above, Is this a Scripture or YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures you refer to. Did you even give a Scripture that proves line one is incorrect? No, you merely say in Daniel 8, and then go about to interpret what YOU think it all means.

Line 2. OK

Line 3. OK, but somewhere in the first period a new temple is built for those sacrifices to start again.

Line 4. I only see the mark being established in the latter 3.5 year period, in conjunction with the placing of the abomination of desolation idol, what is called the "image of the beast" in Rev.13. I believe when it is manifested it will be a mandatory mark required in relation to bowing to the false messiah.

So are you disagreeing with Line 4 or agreeing with it? I asked to show Scriptures which will prove something in the timeline is incorrect. ON line 4 i get this from you, ARe there any Scriptural references i can look up mentioned here that proves that line 4 is incorrect? NO, but there is what your opinion is, what YOU think mentioned here.

Line 5.
the great falling away period will coincide with the abomination of desolation in place starting at the middle, i.e., after the first 3.5 years. In 2 Thess.2, the great falling away timing and the false one revealed as having come, are both within the same timing. It's actually the appearing of the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem that will cause that falling away, i.e., the "strong delusion" of that chapter.

Again, are you disagreeing with line 5 or do you agree with it. And if you disagree with it, where are the Scriptures which i asked for that proves line 5 can't be correct.

The timing of Armageddon, when Jesus will come to defeat the nations gathered around Israel will be on the last day, which you instead have happening during... the 3.5 years period. Their defeat will be very quick. like an instant, when Jesus appears coming in the clouds on the "day of the Lord", which on that day is when His thousand years reign will start.

No Scriptural references here. i have it happening during the 3.5 year period, can you show any Scripture which it is NOT. That is what i have been asking for.

During the thousand years, you have an idea there about age limit restored.

So are you disagreeing with that? and if so, what Scriptures proves it to be incorrect?

During the thousand years, you have an idea there about age limit restored. Not sure what you mean by that.

And how hard is it to ask "What do you mean by that?"

Isaiah speaks of a time concerning the New Heaven and the New Earth.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Then a description of this time period is given. Verses 20-22 is a description of age being restored again. Verse 20 indicates that there will be sinners present during the time of the New Heaven and New Earth. Verse 23 indicates there will be humans present during the New Heaven and New Earth because they will have offspring (sex). Any teaching that is contrary to what the Prophet Isaiah teaches is FALSE.

My understanding is that everyone alive on earth on the last day when Jesus comes, will be changed to the "spiritual body"

Not everyone, Only those whose name is found in the Book of Life will be changed into their Glorified Bodies. Sinners will remain, but destroyed by the vials.

Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump" sounding, the 7th of Rev.11 (see also Isaiah 25 about the idea of death swallowed in victory, who all it is to). Man's time in a flesh body will then be over forever.

That is not what Scriptures teach. Sure at the last Trump the Church will be Raptured, but that does not mean Every wicked person that was not taken is instantly killed, flesh will continue on. There will be 144,000 that make it through the Tribulation Period these are they that will repopulate the New Heaven and the New Earth. But do not misunderstand, the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth begins when the 7 year Tribulation Period begins. When Jesus Returns with the Holy City with Him, it is at that time, because of the Water of Life coming out of the City, that the World will begin to start looking like the Garden of Eden.

The wicked outside the gates of the holy city will still be subject to perish though, the "second death", and will be in that state throughout Christ's thousand years reign.

You are correct in saying the wicked outside the gates of the Holy City will still be subject to perish, and they will be via the 7 vials that is poured out. But you are incorrect saying they will be present during the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth. And again, are you disagreeing with something in the time line, and where is the Scriptures which proves it wrong?

Those are the nations outside the holy city which Christ with His elect will reign over with a rod of iron in that time (Rev.22:14-15 and Rev.20 and end of Zech.14).

This period of time is the 3 1/2 years after the New City Jerusalem gets here on Earth at the 7th Trumpet. The wicked will be left behind, but they will be destroyed by the 7 vials that will be poured out to wipe the wicked off the face of the Earth. There will be no wicked person that survives the 7 year Tribulation Period.

6. All the seven seals, trumpets, and vials occur during the time of "great tribulation", which is the latter 3.5 years or 1260 days, or 42 months of Revelation. I do not hold to the idea that the seals, trumpets, and vials occur separate from each other. The seals of Rev.6 are the 7 signs our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. There's only 7 main signs involved for the very end, and each of those 7 signs are shown in Revelation in 3 different ways.

So you disagree with line 6, but gave no Scripture that Proves it to be incorrect. Everything you say above is your opinion that line 6 is incorrect then you tell the why you think it is incorrect. But you did not do what i asked. i asked to show me Scriptures which proves what i have in the timeline is incorrect, this you have not done yet.

The Garden of Eden conditions you have for the Millennium is actually for after that period, when God brings the new heavens and a new earth condition. Some events linked to God's Eden do begin to occur during Christ's thousand year reign, like God's River and the Tree of Life per Ezekiel 47 established with a sanctuary in Jerusalem. After that period there is no more sanctuary.

So you disagree with the timeline that shows the Garden of Eden conditions during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and by what you say above are you showing me any Scriptures which proves that is incorrect? No you have not.

7. the 144,000 sealed of Israel represent Christ's elect, not some idea like "tribulation saints". I've tried to show many here that not all of those 144,000 represent Jews of the three tribed "house of Judah", but also the other tribes of the ten-tribed "house of Israel" which God scattered among the Gentiles, who among which The Gospel was preached after Christ was rejected and crucified in Jerusalem. These are Israelite believers on Christ Jesus sealed to make a stand through the tribulation, not unbelieving Jews that only turn to Jesus during the tribulation like many wrongly think. If you're sealed for the end, it is only by The Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus.

So you do not agree with what the timeline says about the 144,000, And did you show any Scriptures which proves that what the time line shows about the 144,000 can't be correct? NO, you have not.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7 are also sealed for the tribulation, and represent Gentile believers on Christ Jesus. The view John is given of them in Rev.7 is of the time during Christ's Millennial reign.

Yes, the 144,000 are sealed and they are the ones that repopulate the Earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on Earth.

You have the saints reigning over the 144,000 during Christ's Millennium. It's actually the 144,000 that reign with Jesus, along with those in Christ of the Gentiles in Rev.7. See Rev.14 about the 144,000 standing there with Jesus upon Mount Zion (Sion), and then compare with those in Rev.15.

So you disagree with what i said in the time line about the 144,000. Do you give any Scriptures that PROVES that to be incorrect? No you do not. The time line has the Saints reigning over the 144,000 during Christ's Millenium, If then you think that is incorrect, then show the Scriptures which prove it to be wrong, not your opinion, not your assumptions, not your interpretations, show me Scriptures which prove that they are not.

8. You have the New Jerusalem with the time of Christ's coming, and you put that in the center which I don't think you meant that occurs at the mid point of the 7 years of Daniel's "one week". If you did mean that, then it means you maybe think to be raptured at that mid point, when there is no Scripture support for that idea.

So you disagree with the New City Jerusalem coming down at the time when Christ comes, Did you show Scriptures that proves that it does not happen like that? The time line is very clear that the Rapture happens in the middle of Daniels Week, the middle of the Tribulation Period. If you do not agree with that, then by all means do as i asked, and show the Scriptures which proves it to be wrong.

The process of creating the new heavens and a new earth begins after Christ's thousand years reign, even though God's River and the Tree of Life will be established on earth prior, during the Millennium.

So then if that is what you believe, then show Scriptures that PROVES that the New Heaven and the New Earth begins AFTER the thousand year reign. Do you know why i know you can't possibly do that? Because there are no Scriptures which teach that nonsense, that is a doctrine of man that teaches that, NOT Scriptures. What then? Christ is going to reign over an Earth that is a wasteland, until the end of the thousand years, then He is going to create a New Heaven and a New Earth? Jesus is God of the entire Universe, When He gets here to reign on Earth, i assure you, it will be PERFECT conditions, Garden of Eden conditions on the Earth, for the entire reign of Christ on Earth. And if you think Scriptures teaches differently then reveal the Scriptures if you are able to.

Now do you see why i responded the way that i did? Everything you disagreed with concerning the time line, you gave absolutely NO Scriptures that proves it to be wrong, that is why i responded as i did.

^i^

 

[KennethC]

I agree with most of this. However, the "Abomination of Desolation" doesn't mean what you think (or what I used to think). I used to think that the Abomination caused Desolation. Not so. The "Abomination is of the Desolation." As I mentioned above and as Paul teaches in Gal 4:21-31 the Desolate are the Children of Hagar/Ishmael. They are the Desolate.

Therefore the Abomination is of Muslims and/or relates to Islam.

As to where it is "set up" is debatable. If you look closely, Jesus does not use the word "temple" in either Mat 24 or Mrk 13.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Jesus could have said, "Temple" if indeed there is to be a third temple and indeed if that was to be the location. Instead Jesus calls it, "the Holy Place" and "Where it ought not." That is very telling to me and enforces the fact that there is no prophesy of a third man-made temple. It is only assumed by many because of these passages.

I concur with you that the below from Rev 13 is a very strong candidate to be referencing the A of D:

that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This Muslim/Islamic "Image to the Beast" (of the Sea) which "comes to life, speaks and kills those whom won't worship/serve it" sure does sound like it will be the A of D. I'm with you on that. Where I am not with you on is that it is placed in a Third Jewish Man-Made Temple.

And, I am not in agreement (If you are one who believes this passage proves a 3rd Temple also):

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is something else. It could be, and is likely, related but this is not the same event. I say this because it is the Man of Sin sitting as God in God's Temple here. The Man of Sin isn't placing an image there. There is no mention of people in Judea fleeing in this passage. My contention is that the 2 Thes 2 event is the Man of Sin taking God's Throne in Heaven declaring to be God in Heaven. My contention is this is what triggers the War which breaks out in Heaven and the final casting down to earth and the massive rage with which the dragon has which he takes out on the earth when he gets here which is called, "The Great Tribulation."

The Great Tribulation officially begins after the Man of Sin comes to earth and sets up the A of D image in "the holy place, where it ought not" be. The GT begins when this image comes to life and demands to be worshiped.

This is so important!! THE TRIGGER FOR THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS THE SETTING UP OF THE ABOMINATION OF (the) DESOLATION (or desolate). Our God does not do this!! Satan does this.

We agree (I think) who needs to flee - it is "those in Judea."

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Yes, that is what it says. God is not out to harm those who live in Judea. In fact it is Jesus who warns them to flee. If God was targeting the Jews in Judea with His wrath, why would Jesus warn them to flee the wrath? It makes no sense and defies all logic. Thus, the Great Tribulation is of Satan - Satan sets up the A of D (Whatever this image is) and Satan rallies his Muslim hordes to attack "those in Judea." That is why they are warned to flee.

Again, the GT is first aimed at the Jews. It says so here:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

As you point out, The WOMAN (which is Israel) goes to the Mountains (Nations) where she is kept from the serpent. The Serpent is angry then wages war with her offspring. Daniel confirms:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Notice Daniel calls it "A TIME OF TROUBLE." Who else calls it a "TIME OF TROUBLE?" How about Jeremiah?

Jer 30: [SUP]3 [/SUP]For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


See the same references to being "with child" that Jesus uses? Notice this happens AFTER Israel is brought back from the nations as in now?

THUS THE GREAT TRIBULATION is the TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE.

It is Israel which goes through the Great Tribulation. God rescues Jacob from this Great Tribulation. Do you now see this?

The temple in Revelation 11 in the first two verses is not in heaven, it is on earth.....

Revelation 11:15 starts a new set of events under the 7th trumpet, so these scripture here have no correlation with the first half of the chapter.

"In the Holy Place" is in reference to the Holies of holies in the temple !!!

 

[DiscipleDave]

DP sorry but you're wrong right off the bat. Daniel 9:27 is not a new covenant, it is the confirmation of an existing covenant. "He shall confirm" or He shall establish the truth or correctness of something PREVIOUSLY believed. If you say otherwise then your changing the bible.

confirm - establish the truth or correctness of (something previously believed, suspected, or feared to be the case).

Show me in the bible where the Anitchrist made a covenant somewhere in the past and then later in the last days he is going to CONFIRM that covenant.... it doesn't exist.

If i say "Jesus shall confirm the names in the Book of Life" Does that mean this has already taken place? Surely you know prophesies most of the time can have duel meaning. The statement "He shall confirm" can apply to any time in the future, because of the word "Shall" So at the time of that particular writing when that statement was written "He shall confirm" is to mean something AFTER the time of that particular writing, you agree with that yes? i mean at the moment in time that Daniel wrote that prophesy, it was not yet fulfilled correct? So then that prophecy can be fulfilled at any time in the future AFTER Daniel spoke it, correct? So then the question is when? KJV1611 believes it was fulfilled at the time of Jesus, Others believe it is still yet to be fulfilled. my point is this, the prophesy that Daniel gave, could be fulfilled ANY time AFTER it was given. It could have been 2000 years ago, or it could still yet happen. And KJV1611 just because you believe it was already fulfilled in the past, DOES NOT MEAN it can't possibly be fulfilled again in the future. Duel prophecies.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

If Anyone can show me Scriptures which proves something in this picture is not correct, i would like to see it, please.
Please keep personal opinions, personal interpretations, personal thoughts, personal beliefs, out of it. Please just show me Scriptures which proves something in the picture below is not accurate.

Attachment 141823

It is not for me to show scripture concerning your chart, but rather for you to

Show scripture to support your chart:

lol, so you have nothing then? That is good. Since when is it not good to help another who asks for it? i have a time line that i posted and wanted to see if there were any Scriptural evidence that proves anything in the time line is wrong or incorrect, then you say it is not for you to show Scriptures concerning my chart? If you want to discuss why i believe those things in the chart are correct, i am more than willing to do so in another thread, However this thread i started, specidically to wanting to see if something in the chart is not Scripturally accurate. If you are unwilling to assist then why even reply at all?

Show scripture to support your chart:

*) that the first 5 seals are opened before the 7yr tribulation.

lets try to stay on topic of this particular thread, show me Scriptures which proves that the first five seals are opened AFTER the 7 year Tribulation Period begins, and i will change the chart to match Scriptures.

*) that the 144,000 Jewish tribes are sealed before the 7yr tribulation.

NOT THAT is what i am talking about, Thank you. my first thought was when i read the above statement was "i never said they were sealed Before the 7 year Tribulation Period, and went to the Chart and then seen how it would indeed be seen that is what i was saying, So then because of YOU, i am correcting the chart to indicate they are sealed during the seven year Tribulation Period and NOT before as it appears they are on the chart. Correction to the chart made:

updated chart:

*) that the great falling away happens during (the first 3 1/2 years) a time of peace.

Stay on topic of this particular Thread, please show me Scriptures which proves that it does not happen during the first 3 1/2 years.

*) that (prophetic future) the mark of the beast is optional, yet (past history and present) from the 1930's the social security card (to be employed-to buy or sell) is not optional.

Are you suggesting the Social Security Card is the Mark of the Beast?

*) that in the Millennium the saints reign over the 144,000.

Show me Scriptures where they do not, and i will remove it from the chart.

Please try to understand this. i have a chart, i am asking Christian Brothers and Sister to show me Scriptures which prove that what is in the chart is incorrect or inaccurate. If then Scriptures does indeed show it to be incorrect or inaccurate i will change the chart to reflect what Scriptures teach. Is it so hard to help me out on this?

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

The two covenants "that was confirmed" is speaking in regards to the promise made to Abraham through Jesus Christ 430 years before the law came into being, which is the gospel and has nothing to do with the last seven years regarding the decree upon Israel's seventy 'sevens'. You are misapplying the mention of the gospel covenant that was made with Abraham and applying it to the covenant related to the nation Israel and that ruler who is to come. Just because the word "confirm" is used in both these verses does not mean that the scripture is speaking about the same event. The word "confirm" is not exclusive to either of those events. As I said earlier, Jesus cannot be the "He" in Dan.9:27 and that because it would have him as the one setting up the abomination. Therefore, that alone kills this whole theory of Jesus being the "He" of Dan.9:27. Which ever way you want to slice it, Jesus can't be the one setting up the abomination and therefore, neither can he be the one causing the sacrifice and offerings to cease nor the one who makes the covenant.

Isn't it frustrating trying to teach what Scriptures actually teaches to those who believe their own doctrines based solely on their own interpretations. i see you trying to teach someone what Scriptures actually say.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

It's impossibe to arrive at the truth if there's no inerrant bible... you can find a translation that will say pretty much anything you want it to say.

i get what you are saying, and understand why you are saying it, but it is not True. A person can arrive at the Truth with no Bible at all. The Truth is God, and God can reveal to whom He will reveal, without any Bible. For example i am a firm believer in the KJV Bible, God has protected it, and many of our Christian Brothers and Sisters have died defending it, So i know full well that the KJV is the Word of God, however it is not the ONLY way for a person to come to the TRUTH. MOST all of the TRUTH that i know was given to me by God, through conversation, through visions, through dreams, through talking with Angels of God. What God has told me is TRUTH, and the Bible confirms what He has told me.

But i do understand why you said what you said. There is only ONE Truth, not many TRUTHS.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Ok so what existing covenant will this vile man be confirming?

oohh i know this one.

The covenant that will be agreed upon will be between the Muslims and Jerusalem, it will be a 7 year peace agreement brought about by the antichrist, which the whole world will look up to during a time of great distress among all the nations of the world. The Antichrist will be the Jews Messiah, and he will also be the Muslim awaited Messiah "The Mahdi" He will be the one that seems to bring temporary Peace to the known world. This peace agreement, this covenant will be broken after 3 1/2 years when both the Muslims and the Jews realize he is not their messiah.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DP

No, Jesus came to offer... the New Covenant, not confirm it.

Jesus is not... the one of Dan.9:27, because that one in Dan.9:27 also causes the end of sacrifice with placing the abomination idol of Dan.11:31. That is about the vile person and little horn, not Jesus.

The covenant with Abraham was - Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. How is that any different than the New Covenant?

Sorry KJV but that is not the covenant that God made with Abraham. Abraham believed God is what established His Righteousness. The covenant God made with Abraham is:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

So there are two tribulations in the bible?

There are many Tribulations in the Bible.

It is written :

Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Ooooh many will weep because of this verse.

Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

How many people today sow to their flesh, and when they do reap corruption in that flesh it will be tribulations for that person, and many will fall away because they do not realize the Word of God is True and they brought upon their own selves the corruption which they are now experiencing, but many and i say many will not repent of their sinful deeds, but will curse God because of the very corruption that has come upon them exactly like God said it would to those who sow to their flesh.

There are many Tribulations in the Bible

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Every time tribulation or tribulations is used in the New Testament (around 20 times) they all derive from the same Greek word according to New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

thlipsis; from thlibo ; tribulation:- affliction(14), afflictions(6), anguish(1), distress(2), persecution(1), tribulation(16), tribulations(4), trouble(1).

Thlibo; a prim. vb.; to press, afflict:- afflict(1), afflicted(5), crowd(1), distress(1), narrow(1), suffer affliction(1).

so to me it only speaks of one type of tribulation. Not two. If you haven't guessed by now I hold to an amillennialist view.

Tell me, Does God require a person to study Hebrew and Greek in order to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH?

Seek the Truth through Prayer and from the help of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Those who seek the Truth via some other way, is trying to enter the field NOT though the gate. i in the past studied Hebrew and Greek extensively, it is but dung compared to what God can teach you.
A person who reads a verse in the Bible and merely believes what it says, is far better off than a person who reads a verse in the Bible, don't believe what it plainly says, and therefore goes to the Hebrew and/or Greek to try to get a better understanding of what the verse is actually trying to say. There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Gary,

In your colorful post (#204) above, I think you nailed it. This is the best explanation of Dan 9 that I've read. It all adds up perfectly. Nothing in Dan 9 deals with the "AntiChrist" making a peace deal with Israel or anything happening in a 3rd earthly man-made Jewish temple. In fact, as you point out, the passage is telling us specifically that there will not be a third temple built.

"until the end of the war (in AD 73), desolations were determined" as many of the Children of Israel fled Jerusalem. The final group of organized opposition to Rome died at Masada in AD 73.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

Is the "Overspreading" here discussing the "flood?" "Flood" is often used to describe an overwhelming army "flooding" the Land.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood

Agreed, this is Titus, the Prince who destroyed the city and sanctuary, with his flood of Roman troops.

Here's the part that I now see for the first time:



You are correct, the temple will remain desolate until the "end of all things." This means there is to be no Jewish temple - It will remain desolate - until a specific event, THE CONSUMMATION. I want to expand on something here.

"Even until the Consummation" is the phrase which locates the timing at the END. Again, the CONSUMMATION is an Event. It is a very important future event. The word, "consume" appears just three times in the NT. It is used to describe a divine judgment from heaven destroying evil and it has happened before and will happen again.

Luke 9:54

And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

Elijah consumed his enemies in the OT. Paul tells us who else will consume and what He consumes here:

2 Thessalonians 2:8

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The LAWLESS ONE WILL BE CONSUMED BY THE LORD AT HIS COMING!! This is the CONSUMMATION. Thus the Temple will remain Desolate until the LORD CONSUMES THE LAWLESS ONE AT HIS COMING.

just a comment, the Jews to this day desire to build a Temple, are you saying that will never happen, that somehow the Jews will no longer desire to have their sins forgiven? Know you not that a True Jew today can't have his sins forgiven because they can't sacrifice animals because they have no Temple, they desire more than anything to have a Temple. But what is stopping them? The Dome of the Rock, the Muslims are stopping them from making a Temple, the Jews would have to destroy the Dome of the Rock in order to build their Temple, if they did so they would be utterly destroyed by the Muslims. So it is only when their is a Peace agreement between the Muslims and the Jews, that they are allowed to rebuild their Temple which they will do, despite those who say there will not be a third Temple.

^i^

 

[SIRGEORGIAN]

Tell me, Does God require a person to study Hebrew and Greek in order to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH?

Seek the Truth through Prayer and from the help of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Those who seek the Truth via some other way, is trying to enter the field NOT though the gate. i in the past studied Hebrew and Greek extensively, it is but dung compared to what God can teach you.
A person who reads a verse in the Bible and merely believes what it says, is far better off than a person who reads a verse in the Bible, don't believe what it plainly says, and therefore goes to the Hebrew and/or Greek to try to get a better understanding of what the verse is actually trying to say. There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

^i^

i agree, however is our faith a blind faith? Should we not search diligently? Study to show yourself approved? Are you saying I'm doing something wrong by doing deep studies to insure what I read is accurate according to scripture? If someone doesn't have a mentor and is a new convert should they should just sit there and read the bible only guessing at the interpretation?
Yes the bible is the ultimate source. And yes, if what I read doesn't match scripture then I throw it away.

God has given me a brain and I must use it to glorify Him. When I do this and am true to the gospel then what else matters.

and to answer your question. No a person does not have to refer back to Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew in order to find truth. Truth, as you know, is absolute. It can be found anywhere God desires it to be shown. (Mainly His Word)

 

[DP]

i agree, however is our faith a blind faith? Should we not search diligently? Study to show yourself approved? Are you saying I'm doing something wrong by doing deep studies to insure what I read is accurate according to scripture? If someone doesn't have a mentor and is a new convert should they should just sit there and read the bible only guessing at the interpretation?
Yes the bible is the ultimate source. And yes, if what I read doesn't match scripture then I throw it away.

God has given me a brain and I must use it to glorify Him. When I do this and am true to the gospel then what else matters.

and to answer your question. No a person does not have to refer back to Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew in order to find truth. Truth, as you know, is absolute. It can be found anywhere God desires it to be shown. (Mainly His Word)

Nothing wrong at all with deeper Bible with discipline. But look at the orthodox Jews how well studied in the Hebrew many of there are, yet the veil of many things in God's Word is still over their heart because of unbelief that Jesus is The Christ.

Language study is great, finding two or more witnesses for a matter in God's Word is excellent. But it still does not mean one will come to true understanding by doing that only. God gave His Holy Writ by The Holy Spirit through men as touched by The Holy Spirit, and His Word MUST be understood by The Holy Spirit. There are no shortcuts around The Holy Spirit even with deep disciplined Bible study in the languages.

 

[DP]

This is going to be difficult, since I'm not looking back to everything I wrote as a reference:

DiscipleDave said

This is what you replied:

i asked you to show me Scriptures which proves something that is in the timeline is not correct. For line one you say the above, Is this a Scripture or YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures you refer to. Did you even give a Scripture that proves line one is incorrect? No, you merely say in Daniel 8, and then go about to interpret what YOU think it all means.

My reply on that referred you to Dan.8 about the 2300 days. I assumed you already knew about the "one week" division written in Dan.9:27, which is about the 3.5 years, or 1260 days, or a time, times and a half elsewhere in the Book of Daniel. If I had to quote every piece of that, I might as well have run through Dan.2 all the way to the end of Dan.12 to cover those things, which I assumed you already knew. I don't have time to go to that depth, nor would the moderators allow it here.

The 2300 days of Dan.8 ends with the full end of the 70 weeks Dan.9 prophecy, with the cleansing of the sanctuary. So that end is the ending anchor point for the 2300 days. The only other thing left to do is count from the end backwards with that 2300 days within the "one week" timing of Dan.9:27, which divides the first 1260 days of the "one week" into two other periods of 220 days and 1040 days (220 + 1040 = 1260 days of the first half of Daniel's final "one week").

I already read where you agree a temple at the end must be built. Per the Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 Scripture, sacrifices and the oblation must occur prior to the one of Dan.9:27 ending them in the middle of the "one week". Simple. That automatically points to the existence of another temple with old covenant sacrifices having started up again. Thus the two subjects, building of the temple, and sacrifices, fall within the first 1260 days period, prior to the AOD of Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 being placed which ends those sacrifices. Thus my speculation that the first small period of 220 days is about the building of that temple and the 1040 days is when sacrifices and services are established. The 2300 days prophecy in Dan.8 gives us that division in the first half of the "one week".

So are you disagreeing with Line 4 or agreeing with it? I asked to show Scriptures which will prove something in the timeline is incorrect. ON line 4 i get this from you, ARe there any Scriptural references i can look up mentioned here that proves that line 4 is incorrect? NO, but there is what your opinion is, what YOU think mentioned here.

Yes, there are other references, but they involve 'when' that "another beast" working will be. That "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, who works the wonders and miracles in the sight of men, is the same one our Lord Jesus warned of in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2:3-4. Those 3 Scripture examples tie together about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to play God, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world into worshiping him as The Messiah, i.e, Christ, or whatever messiah type other religions are expecting (like Islam's Mahdi).

Jesus showed a specific timing for that false one's appearance, during the time of "great tribulation" He warned of there in Matt.24 and Mark 13. He even linked that false one's coming there to the placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel. Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 gave a specific timing for that false one being revealed also, prior to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church, which again, points directly to the time of "great tribulation" Jesus taught. Because the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is the same false one working those great signs and wonders, that links to the timings Jesus and Paul gave us. It puts the events of Rev.13:11 forward in the "great tribulation" timing.

When our Lord Jesus quoted from Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" for the "great tribulation" period in Matt.24, that linked to the Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 prophecy of when... that AOD will be placed, i.e., right in the middle of the "one week", which shows the tribulation time is the latter 1260 days period of that "one week" of Dan.9:27.

I'll stop here for now. I'm going to have to copy what you first wrote and my reply to refer to it to go any further.

 

[SIRGEORGIAN]

Nothing wrong at all with deeper Bible with discipline. But look at the orthodox Jews how well studied in the Hebrew many of there are, yet the veil of many things in God's Word is still over their heart because of unbelief that Jesus is The Christ.

Language study is great, finding two or more witnesses for a matter in God's Word is excellent. But it still does not mean one will come to true understanding by doing that only. God gave His Holy Writ by The Holy Spirit through men as touched by The Holy Spirit, and His Word MUST be understood by The Holy Spirit. There are no shortcuts around The Holy Spirit even with deep disciplined Bible study in the languages.

Again, I agree but who was Paul? How did Paul handle scripture? Was he not one of the best with Hebrew and the law? Then he converted and God used his brilliant knowledge of Hebrew, history, law and the gospel. Paul was an apologist by definition. He used his brain for Gods glory by presenting the gospel. Proving that Christ was supreme time and time again. He knew philosophy, the science of his day other religious (cults) beliefs. He stood toe to toe with the greatest minds of his time.

Now on to me. I never said I did that only. Not sure why this is being assumed. Are you saying that because I used/ use other means in my study I cannot come to truth? Truth is absolute, God bless you guys who can read just the bible and discern scripture. I on the other hand being a true convert mid 2015 am not there yet. Some passages yes others not so much. I have to put effort and work into my studies. I want to live 1 Peter 3:15. In order for me to do this properly I need to study and re-study. I start with the bible then go to my library when needed. No one ever claimed the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with any of it. If it wasn't for the holy spirt convicting me through the gospel, I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

we as Christians need to insure we are all doing everything possible in Christ to present the gospel. If I am wrong I will repent, it will come to light, I just want to know as much about God in the short time I have here and be able to present the gospel whenever I can.

 

[DP]

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In line 3 - you have "Israel Starts Sacrifices". That's why I referred you to Dan.8 about the 2300 days, which gives us two other divisions in that first 1260 days period, which I explained in my previous post. So I am agreeing with you on that, but pointing you to more info on that first 1260 days period. I think we'd both agree at the start of the first 1260 days of the "one week" of Dan.9:27, that is when the "league" of Dan.11 is made, which also would include the confirming of a covenant of Dan.9:27. What's left is to actually start building another temple, and then start up sacrifices again. In other words, I don't think the making of peace will take that whole first 220 days of the first 1260 days period.

In line 4, you have "Mark of the Beast Optional" in the first 1260 day period. I disagree with that. The mark we are shown in Rev.13:11 forward isn't instituted until that "another beast" begins to demand to be worshiped. For that to occur, the AOD must be in place first, along with his command to be worshiped in place of the sacrifices.

In line 5 - you have the "Great Falling Away" in the first 1260 days half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". Per 2 Thess.2:3-4, it's when the false one sits in the temple showing himself that he is God, and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, is when the great falling away occurs. It coincides with his being revealed in the temple exalted as God. Paul called that event the "strong delusion" in that 2 Thess.2 chapter. I realize many preachers today claim that falling away is about believers that stray in their daily living away from Christ, quit going to Church, quit reading their Bible, and basically beginning to alienate our Lord Jesus in their lives, but that is only a prep for the coming "strong delusion", and not the actual "strong delusion" itself, which will be that false one actually proclaiming to be God and working the great signs, wonders, and miracles that will cause even many atheists to believe. Thus, that period is set for the latter half of Daniel's "one week", the latter 1260 days period, which is the actual time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus warned.

Also on line 5 - you have "Nations Fight Against Christ" within... the latter 1260 day period of the "one week", when that event is actually at the end of the latter 1260 days period when Jesus returns. That is when He gathers His Church and fights the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16 on the final 7th Vial, because notice at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial He is still warning His Church of His coming "as a thief" (which ties to 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10 about the "day of the Lord" events that will end this present world. The events of Rev.9:12 through Rev.11:15 are on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, and that is when the latter 1260 days period is, with the devil in control upon the earth over all nations, and that is the time of "great tribulation".

In line 6 - you have the Seals prior to the "one week" and going into the first 1260 days a little, then the trumpets blown in the first 1260 days, and then the vials in the latter 1260 days. Per our Lord Jesus' parable of the fig tree, all the signs He gave upon the Mount of Olives (Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21) are for the final generation that will see His 2nd coming. He only gave us 7 Signs in that, not 21. In Revelation He went into more detail with 3 sets of those same 7 Signs. So I do not interpret those as men's traditions do like you have them. Our Lord Jesus returns and gathers His Church on the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial is what I see. Again, remember at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial, He is still warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments lest we appear in shame; and that ties directly to the timing of the "day of the Lord" which Paul and Peter both taught is at the end of this world (as also written in the OT prophets).

In the Millennium timing, where you have "Age Limit Restored", I disagreed with that. This is what I wrote, which I still hold to:

During the thousand years, you have an idea there about age limit restored. Not sure what you mean by that. My understanding is that everyone alive on earth on the last day when Jesus comes, will be changed to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump" sounding, the 7th of Rev.11 (see also Isaiah 25 about the idea of death swallowed in victory, who all it is to). Man's time in a flesh body will then be over forever. The wicked outside the gates of the holy city will still be subject to perish though, the "second death", and will be in that state throughout Christ's thousand years reign. Those are the nations outside the holy city which Christ with His elect will reign over with a rod of iron in that time (Rev.22:14-15 and Rev.20 and end of Zech.14).