The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

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Mitspa

Guest
Wikipedia's a joke. Anyone can write whatever they want there. I could go in and write, 'Hi Mitspa' if I wanted. I read what Irenaeus wrote about Mary on different websites, and it was clear that Irenaus was not advocating Mary worship. He said Mary became an advocate of Eve, not the human race.
Everyone but you seems to understand what he was saying and clearly this fellow laid the foundations of mary worship in the RCC... here is some more of what this heretic believed and taught....

The so-called 'Irenaean theodicy' comes in two parts. The first stems from St Irenaeus (130-202 AD), a Father of the early Christian Church, who thought that humanity was not created perfect, but that they required growth in order to approach spiritual perfection. However, God does not necessarily intend evil to provide a means for this growth (i.e. by providing challenging situations), for a person could grow to spiritual perfection simply by obeying God's laws. Also, from Irenaeus's point of view, God does not intervene in human affairs to prevent evil because that would be to interfere with free will.

No wonder he was attacking those that did not teach legalism...
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Everyone but you seems to understand what he was saying and clearly this fellow laid the foundations of mary worship in the RCC... here is some more of what this heretic believed and taught....

The so-called 'Irenaean theodicy' comes in two parts. The first stems from St Irenaeus (130-202 AD), a Father of the early Christian Church, who thought that humanity was not created perfect, but that they required growth in order to approach spiritual perfection. However, God does not necessarily intend evil to provide a means for this growth (i.e. by providing challenging situations), for a person could grow to spiritual perfection simply by obeying God's laws. Also, from Irenaeus's point of view, God does not intervene in human affairs to prevent evil because that would be to interfere with free will.

No wonder he was attacking those that did not teach legalism...
I'm reading about this on other websites, and it sounds different than what you posted here. And it doesn't sound evil at all. Why don't you go get what Irenaeus actually had to say himself about the matter, and we can judge it from that rather than what someone else says he believed (who we don't know the motives of)?
 
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Mitspa

Guest
I'm reading about this on other websites, and it sounds different than what you posted here. And it doesn't sound evil at all. Why don't you go get what Irenaeus actually had to say himself about the matter, and we can judge it from that rather than what someone else says he believed (who we don't know the motives of)?
I know what he believed ..he taught heresy and salvation through mary and the eucharist along with all the other catholic nonsense about bishops and priest and the authority of the Roman church... Just like the pope said he was the founder of all catholic doctrine ...does the pope not understand catholic doctrine?
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Wow the more I study about this heretic the more I understand why the pope said he laid the foundation of all catholic doctrine .... this guy believed that one could justify the flesh from Adam through obedience to the law and suffering in the flesh.

He also had a universalist attitude for nonbelievers ..except for those Christians that rejected the authority of the church of Rome.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Brother, how do you think you have the faith and bible you have now? It's because godly men preserved the faith by handing it down to trustworthy men to lead the church. The church would have evaporated without them. Sure that got corrupted because that's what men do.
This a profound statement made by Jesus, wouldn't you say?

Luke 19:40
39 And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”
40 But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
 
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KennethC

Guest
Any sane person can read the words this phony holy man was supposed to have written and know he was claiming salvation through mary..which the whole church teaches by the way.
Did I say anything about what the man taught ????

No I did not.............

What I was speaking on was you tying a person to a church that did not exist in his day, not anything the man personally said.

Please read what I actually said to you instead of throw things at me I am not even discussing.

If this man truly stated (and I would like to see his actual quote, not something another person or site claims he said) that salvation can come through Mary then yes he would be wrong. But that still in no way give you the right to make up lies about him either tying him to a church that did not exist in his day !!!!
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Did I say anything about what the man taught ????

No I did not.............

What I was speaking on was you tying a person to a church that did not exist in his day, not anything the man personally said.

Please read what I actually said to you instead of throw things at me I am not even discussing.

If this man truly stated (and I would like to see his actual quote, not something another person or site claims he said) that salvation can come through Mary then yes he would be wrong. But that still in no way give you the right to make up lies about him either tying him to a church that did not exist in his day !!!!
Look even this fellow used the term catholic in his writings and again and again declare the absolute authority of the Roman church...even the pope said it this man that laid all the foundations of catholic doctrine...if the pope and the catholic church calls him catholic ..why would have a issue that I do as well? Think before you post kenneth
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Do you think that if a person doesn't think acknowledgement of sin is necessary (when necessary) that there might be a possibility that things might not work out right? Like maybe a seared conscience.
I don't think its possible that a person could acknowledge every sin.

At some point we just have to trust in Christ and that His Blood cleanses us, continually.


Oh, Precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow.
No other fount I know
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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WHAT preachers?

NAME them.

SHOW EXAMPLES of their lack of grace.

Because the Grace preachers I'm familiar with are very willing to step by step, using contextual Scripture and being faithful to the original intent of the language, communicate the Gospel of Grace. These teachers include, but are not limited to:

Bob George
Andrew Farley
The folks at BasicGospel.net
Rob Rufus
Ryan Rufus
Paul Ellis
D. R. Silva
. . . and others

Though interaction here can get heated at times, those who have been posting about the simple Truths of the Gospel of Grace have been faithful to the Scriptures. They keep pointing you all to Christ, His Work, who we are in Him, and what that means as we walk out or daily lives.

Those who are trying to warn others about the 'evils' of what they've labeled 'new.modern.hyper.grace' (which isn't new or modern, or a new label, but spoken of clearly in Romans 5:20 - super-abounding grace - hyperperisseuō) keep pointing folks to self. What YOU must do to get right and stay right with God.

Guys - it's not about you and what you can achieve or maintain as far as behavior is concerned. Righteousness - rightness with God - is a GIFT. It is only through Christ. HE maintains it. From a place of rest, by the way, seated with the Father in the Heavenly Temple because His Work is finished :).

Then there's talk about the most vile sins some can to think of - are those okay to do now because of Grace?

That's the wrong question - the questions should be: Do YOU, as a born-again, Blood-bought, believer in Christ WANT to do those things? If you DID do those things, would that be in line with who you are as a New Creation and would you feel good about it, even in Grace? Yes or no? Why or why not?

For me, sin doesn't sit well. I don't like it when I sin. The Holy Spirit reminds me of who I am and Whose I am when I sin and teaches me to say no to ungodliness. He does not ask me to seek forgiveness for sins already died and bled for (and that is what is required for the forgiveness of sins, and Jesus already did that, once for all time), though I do say I'm sorry and pray for His strength to choose wisely the next time.

I've said this time and again, and I'll repeat it here: Those holding up Hyper Grace as a false teaching taught by heretics are not reading/listening to those who are preaching Grace. They are reading/listening to those who are misunderstanding/mischaracterizing the Grace message and preaching against stuff that Grace preachers don't preach.

I'm friends with some of you folks who are misunderstanding the Gospel of Grace - several of you 'Like' many of my posts and have expressed respect for what I've posted over time here at CC.

While I may not agree with every teacher on every point I've listed above (and I should have included, *GASP*, Joseph Prince), they are ALL on target with the Gospel of Grace.

NONE of them preach a license to sin, that confession is bad, that behavior doesn't matter, or Gnosticism.

They ALL use contextual Scripture and are faithful to the linguistics of Scripture as they teach the Gospel of Grace.

I've spent YEARS examining the different facets of this issue, and Grace is what it is. It's all about Christ, Who He is, what He came to do, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him. It's about the Fruit that Christ produces and that we bear as we rest in His completed Work. It's the paradox of striving to enter into His Rest - it's counter-intuitive to our flesh, but our spirit thrives and matures when we do, and good Fruit follows.


I'm not just spouting this off as an academic exercise - in my capacity as JGIG over the years, I've had the opportunity to interact with many folks coming out of legalism and watched them bloom and grow under Grace. I've seen them go from being fearful and critical to being peaceful and full of joy, able to grasp the love of God to overflowing into the lives of those around them. I've received emails from others who have not really been into legalism, but have had a mixture of Jesus + (insert pet doctrine here) and learning the above has set them free and they've gone from just bumping along in their walks to having vibrant, fruitful walks in Christ. And in 'real life', being in a local body of believers over the past 20 years, I've watched those who have striven under 'holiness' type teaching and those who have blossomed in Grace (our local church has moved more into Grace over the years). The Fruit tells the story.

Much of what I have seen here from those who are misunderstanding the Gospel of Grace is reactionary. Study it out. Make use of Greek dictionaries and see what the Biblical definitions of words like 'repentance', 'holiness', 'righteousness' and others mean. Consider context when looking at words with more than one definition, understanding that context (not just verse, but paragraph, chapter, letter, and whether something appears before or after the Cross) determines meaning.

Ask questions. Pray for guidance. And, if you want to hear/read from actual Grace preachers, you can find a good collection of their stuff HERE. If I were to recommend just one source (though I highly recommend many excellent Grace preachers) to get a comprehensive and very balanced view of the Gospel of Grace, I would recommend Andrew Farley's Series page. All of the teachings are free to watch or download audio to your listening device. I highly recommend his stuff, and on his series page, especially his series on Romans, Hebrews, and 1 John are recommended to answer many of the questions raised on this thread. Here's the link: andrew farley :: media player

I love you guys, and wish I could be here more often, but as some of you know, one of our children is being treated at St. Jude Children's Hospital for brain and spine cancer. He's responding well to treatment, by the way, and we so appreciate your continued prayers for him and our family.

My goal has always been and will always be to point folks to Christ. The Gospel of Grace brings the Lost to Life and corrects error, so in any points where I may err, if I'm pointing folks to Christ, He can bring correction. Likewise, if I'm always looking to Christ and His Work and who I am in Him, the same applies. As He brings maturity in me, what I believe comes more and more in line with His Truth.

My prayer for us all is an echo of what Paul wrote here:

Ephesians 3:16-21

16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge —that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever!

Amen.
\o/

Much love in Christ,
-JGIG
Be careful, you maybe labeled an anti-grace advocate for this statement in red above.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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For me, sin doesn't sit well. I don't like it when I sin. The Holy Spirit reminds me of who I am and Whose I am when I sin and teaches me to say no to ungodliness. He does not ask me to seek forgiveness for sins already died and bled for (and that is what is required for the forgiveness of sins, and Jesus already did that, once for all time), though I do say I'm sorry and pray for His strength to choose wisely the next time.
And this statement.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Look even this fellow used the term catholic in his writings and again and again declare the absolute authority of the Roman church...even the pope said it this man that laid all the foundations of catholic doctrine...if the pope and the catholic church calls him catholic ..why would have a issue that I do as well? Think before you post kenneth
I do think before I post, you are the one who doesn't because you claim stuff on others they never have done......

Then you take and use Catholic sources or what a Catholic person has said to get your truth, getting truth by a source of lies is like trying to get orange juice from a watermelon; Can't happen !!!

The Catholic church also claims the Apostle Peter was the first Pope, does not make it fact Mitspa !!!

Again trying to tie a man to a church that did not exist in his days is wrong and a lie !!!!!!!!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Can Grace ever be exagerated enough?

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 Corinthians 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Someday we will see that we should have exagerated Grace even more than we did. If we could have just understood it better to begin with.
God's Grace is the only thing that I can truely say we should take advantage of, and not take advantage of.

Hebrews 5:9
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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With all due respect, you have not proven any of that. You've taken a label and attached it to the Gospel of Grace based on what you've heard others say about what Grace preachers teach.

I don't have 'practiced talking points'. I go to Scripture to relay what I believe. You've seen me do it time and again. And have agreed with me many times. I'm asking you to take a fresh look at what Grace teachers ACTUALLY teach, and evaluate from there.

-JGIG
Am I mistaken, but I thought this thread was about the Gospel of hyper-grace, not the Gospel of Grace.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
 
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There is no difference...they are the same thing in scriptures...every so-called hyper-grace believer quotes Titus 2;11-12 constantly...are proposing that some are saying..Grace is a license to sin?



Am I mistaken, but I thought this thread was about the Gospel of hyper-grace, not the Gospel of Grace.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,12teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
 
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KennethC

Guest
God's Grace is the only thing that I can truely say we should take advantage of, and not take advantage of.

Hebrews 5:9
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

I like this verse from Hebrews 5:9 and I have seen a few quote this verse trying to leave the last part off, "to all who obey Him."

He is not the author of eternal salvation to the disobedient !!!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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The only thing that bothers me is when people place their works and what they have to do over the Work of Christ and what He has Acomplished.
I haven't read anything from NRFTD or Phil36 that suggested such a thing!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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" But He gives greater grace. Therefore it says, ' GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. ' Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. " James 4:6-7

Humility is saying I agree with the finished work of Jesus Christ and I align myself up to its truths.

" Submit therefore to God. " The word 'submit ' is in the passive voice which means the person is ' being acted up '. God does it to us.

It is letting God's life and truth come to us.


" Resist the devil " - he is trying to get us into unbelief and self-effort but stand against that and submit to the finished work of Christ. Then our enemy flees from us!

" Doing in self-effort " = pride " Done in Him" = humility in Christ
So you admit YOU have to agree with God. I can agree with that!
 
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So how do we "Obey" Him..by keeping His commandments which are these..

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

That is why our Lord is the author of eternal salvation for us!...we as believers do the above...because we have His Spirit in us.



I like this verse from Hebrews 5:9 and I have seen a few quote this verse trying to leave the last part off, "to all who obey Him."

He is not the author of eternal salvation to the disobedient !!!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Of course you have to agree with God..that's what confession means in greek..to say the same thing..which could be about sin or about who we are in Christ..whatever..we repent constantly every time we find out something new about the Lord...

Where in the world would you get the idea that people don't have to agree with God..?

So you admit YOU have to agree with God. I can agree with that!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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" But He gives greater grace. Therefore it says, ' GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. ' Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. " James 4:6-7

Humility is saying I agree with the finished work of Jesus Christ and I align myself up to its truths.

" Submit therefore to God. " The word 'submit ' is in the passive voice which means the person is ' being acted up '. God does it to us.

It is letting God's life and truth come to us.


" Resist the devil " - he is trying to get us into unbelief and self-effort but stand against that and submit to the finished work of Christ. Then our enemy flees from us!

" Doing in self-effort " = pride " Done in Him" = humility in Christ
However,

2 Peter 1:10
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;


There is no self-effort in this verse?