Is This a Hyper-Grace Doctrine of Men FORUM?
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This is sure nothing new. Preachers and authors on either side of any controversy seem to love to sell us all books.
I wish I had one tenth of Hal Lindsey's book sales income....... and he does nothing but continually prove to be wrong. We are suckers, and will buy anything.
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
I can't make heads or tails of it, have never seen this hyper-grace stuff, over a lifetime of Christianity, and, to be frank, don't care to Google it. If it's some "new" doctrine from hell or whatever it is, can't see it can make any difference a couple thousand years on. What's Twilight Zone about the forum is I just understand simple scripture teaching on grace, see it as a baby Christian issue, perhaps mainly an issue with babies who throw their food? I don't know of hyper-grace, hypo-grace, median-grace, grace rare, well done or medium rare, must have this arcane notion grace is grace, praise Jesus, next? Maybe there's some preacher out there selling a hyper-book or hyper-DVD, I don't know, but neither would it seem sensible to start a bunch of threads to debate misunderstandings of Reverend Ike prayer cloths. It all seems like hyper-hoopla, and, what do you know, a platform for the self-righteous to troll that same works salvation coda they sing, a hundred more times. Lord, I gets so sleepy! Maybe it's time to do a scripture word search on "been there, done that," or "heard you the first time."
Anyway, I've heard Prince is a Jehovah's Witness, but have never seen his teachings, except for this, which is pretty hyper.
Anyway, I've heard Prince is a Jehovah's Witness, but have never seen his teachings, except for this, which is pretty hyper.
[video=youtube;F8BMm6Jn6oU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8BMm6Jn6oU[/video]
S
sparty-g
Guest
Of course, reading the Scriptures and seeking the Spirit's counsel is the highest priority. If you put any value in reading books outside of the Scriptures on various topics of the faith, then you could read books on the topic of the modern grace movement by authors who have varying perspectives on its positions and teachings. There are many books by authors who are proponents of the movement (Rob Rufus, Joseph Prince, Andrew Farley, and others), Dr. Brown has written his perspective on the movement, and apparently there is a response by Paul Ellis to that. Seems like there are plenty of sources if you're interested in reading more about it.
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
Reading some of the posts here, could anybody have been saved, prior to this Brown guy? Never having even heard of hyper-grace, do we need to test whether our grace is hyped enough, or not?
M
Mitspa
Guest
(hyper) huper..abounding grace is biblical ... The faith and Humility required to receive it is biblical too
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
'Twould appear so. But God IS good! Thank you for that, something I can relate to, in a pretty color, at that!
K
KennethC
Guest
Yes people have been saved for years before all these so-called scholars existed........
The problem is when people constantly spout:
Brown this, Ellis that, Augustine this, Calvin that, this man or that man it shows they put to must trust in what these people are saying !!!
Now some may say some good things, and some may not............
The problem stems that if what they say does not match with the Word of God, and thus you have to go digging deep into finding hidden meanings in a scripture instead of going by what it plainly says then we have already been lead astray.
Example:
If a scripture said the pen was blue, no matter how hard you try if you continue to say the pen was red you would be wrong !!!
I know and have heard the analogy of using a book where the side facing the audience is red, but the side facing the preacher was blue. So in fact both would be right, but actually that is bad example because if a scripture clearly commands baptism such as Matthew 28:19 for believers then we can not say the other side of that same scripture says we don't.
K
KennethC
Guest
The way it is preached is not, because the way it is preached says no matter how much you sin grace will cover it !!!
That is not what the Word of God says, the abounding that the grace does is that no matter how bad a person has done that person can learn to stop being/living in that sinful way and turn to walk in His righteousness instead.
We are in a society that feels people full of lies that certain people can never change, that is a lie and it tramples on God's grace to believe that way !!!
M
Mitspa
Guest
That's why I said it requires humility ... believers who humble themselves under the grace of God...do not continue in sin. In fact the bible teaches that its only that grace that can set a person free from sins power.
No matter how much sin you manage to accumulate in your life time Jesus' blood will still stand victorious, cleansing your sin from your account having been paid by Jesus. The statement is, indeed, true that no matter how much you sin grace will cover it, and it goes back to the cross. Jesus paid for sin, once and for all.
The mistake is in misrepresenting this statement to mean we can sin all we want (intentionally) and be covered (I.e, a license to sin). That is not what is being said, because grace breaks sin's dominion over our lives. So yes, where sin abounded, grace much more. However, we have been set free from sin, we are dead to it (having died with Christ) and we also should consider ourselves risen with Him (symbolized in baptism) reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.
So yes, in your entire life time no matter how much sin you've accumulated the blood of Jesus Christ still cleanses us from all unrighteousness. This is not to say we ought to aim for a higher score of how much sin we can accumulate to make His grace that much greater, but it is the safety net that is in Christ. Sin is paid, and Jesus is the foundation laid. Keep in mind again, this is not to say we have a license to sin because in Christ and by grace sin loses its dominion over our lives and we serve in newness of life.
K
KennethC
Guest
Your statement here makes a contradiction though, can you not see that ???
No matter how much sin you have accumulated..........................misrepesenting this statement to mean we can sin all we want and be covered
These two statements made by you make a contradiction, because the first one encompasses that a person can go and sin all they want then.
You must be careful how you word things and explain them because in your own verbage at one minute you are saying we can but then the next you are saying we can't.
It is either or, it can not be both !!!
Either you can sin all you want and still be saved in Christ, or you can't sin all you want and need to walk in His righteousness to be saved in Christ !!! You can't have it both ways, or you are serving two masters that will find you also spit out !!!
I am using a technicality. Our salvation is dependent upon Jesus Christ and His sacrifice paying for our sins. Saved by grace through faith. Right? So regardless of whether or not I overcome a particular sin in my life at some point in time is not the moment I am officially saved. Sanctification is only a possibility and it necessarily happens after conversion but is not the means unto salvation. That, salvation, is simply by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
There is no contradiction. Sin will not dominate our lives and no matter how much sin we rack up in our entire lives His grace is sufficient through God's Son's blood. None of us stop sinning in this life, no one is perfect. Therefore we all have sin. My point, however, is that the overcoming of sin is not the means to salvation (the sanctification process), but that is simply found in Christ (justification). This is not to neglect sanctification, mind you. Only that sanctification is a fruit of conversion (don't put the cart before the horse).
Notice that the apostle Paul says to not use our liberty to entertain the lusts of the flesh? Right? How could he say that if it were not so? That sounds extreme, but the reality is that we are born anew. So the statement is true, that no matter how much sin we have His grace is sufficient.
However, and also true, sin shall not dominate our lives. There is no contradiction, His grace is sufficient in that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin and also too because of His grace sin shall not dominate our lives. Both sinners and saints sin, the only different between them and us is that we have Jesus. The amount of sin is decreased in our lives compared to the unbeliever, and yet we still accumulate sin in our lives (over time, in totality). The important fact being, Jesus took care of sin at the cross and His grace is sufficient.
To be fair, that is not true. We definately quit sinning on judgement day. There is a high likelyhood if you claim to walk with Jesus and you are still willfully sinning you do not know Him.
I still do not know how people think Jesus came to call us to defeat. Is that what the apostles are writing about?
K
KennethC
Guest
You still do make a contradiction as now you say, "it doesn't matter if you overcome a sin your life or not."
That totally contradicts what Jesus and John said as they said only those who overcome will inherit the promise.
To claim this doesn't matter denies the working power of the Holy Spirit, as that is what He was sent to help us to do, and that is to overcome the sinful world and not walk in those sinful ways any longer !!!
M
Mitspa
Guest
Here is part of the problem with the logic of those that think grace promotes sin... the idea a real believer (born-again) wants to sin and looks for excuses to sin... There is nothing about believing Gods grace is greater than sin that makes me want to sin... In fact it empowers me to live more Godly ... That's how the truth is supposed to work..do all have that desire to live godly? No..and that's why the warnings of the New Testament to reprove the flesh are important.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Its legalism (the law) that ensures defeat to sin...Its grace that overcomes sins and gives us victory. (if you believe the bible?)
K
KennethC
Guest
All still sin, but the difference is do we sin as in struggling with areas in our life that we are trying to stop with the help of the Holy Spirit, have we stumbled to then confess and return to walking in His righteousness, or are we continuing to deliberately keep in habitual sinning ???
There is a difference in each of these and only the last one does believers in Christ not do !!!