The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)

[Willie-T]

I bet your mother-in-law helped your wife to set you straight too!...

Actually, "No." My wife was raised in a stiff, rigid family of the very people were are trying to reach here. And I joined that denomination. Stayed there 12 years.

My wife is thoroughly "educated" in Godology, as are most of CoC'ers but she had to leave home and begin attending another congregation of the same denomination before she truly heard about Jesus in 1967 or 68. And, then she still didn't learn about Grace until a college roommate, a Presbyterian, began to disciple her.

 

[Willie-T]

It's hard, 777, but I keep trying to remember that to many people, "grace" is just another religious word.

 

[Utah]

And yet you still sin - every single day.

My goodness, your yoke must be heavy indeed.

Heavy indeed. The reeking stench of his pride is utterly amazing.

 

[Grace777x70]

We all give "mental assent" to words because we have been "Christianized"...but are we really "believing" and "living that out" with that belief in our daily life?..there is lies the rub....

It's hard, 777, but I keep trying to remember that to many people, "grace" is just another religious word.

 

[Willie-T]

Now, for you who say they missed 777's meaning about "stumbling toward God", let me try to help you by showing how YOU, yourselves do that.

I am irritating to many of you, am I not? Just as you are irritating to me. (It's OK, you can admit it...... because if either of us denies it, we know we are lying.)

So, I am writing some "nonsense" to you about Jesus actually loving us. And you get fed up with me. What do you do? C'mon, you know. You answer my post in a way that you, as a Christian, normally wouldn't. (You know you do this just as much as I do.)

And, neither of us is proud of ourselves for stooping so low. But, Willie made you do it. My "stupid words" made you stumble.

But, did you "stumble" in a position of turning away from God? No, of course not. You were still walking toward God when I caused you to stumble.

So..... in which direction did you stumble when you typed that caustic reply to me? Toward God, or away from Him?

See what he meant?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now, for you who say they missed 777's meaning about "stumbling toward God", let me try to help you by showing how YOU, yourselves do that.

I am irritating to many of you, am I not? Just as you are irritating to me. (It's OK, you can admit it...... because if either of us denies it, we know we are lying.)

So, I am writing some "nonsense" to you about Jesus actually loving us. And you get fed up with me. What do you do? C'mon, you know. You answer my post in a way that you, as a Christian, normally wouldn't. (You know you do this just as much as I do.)

And, neither of us is proud of ourselves for stooping so low. But, Willie made you do it. My "stupid words" made you stumble.

But, did you "stumble" in a position of turning away from God? No, of course not. You were still walking toward God when I caused you to stumble.

So..... in which direction did you stumble when you typed that caustic reply to me? Toward God, or away from Him?

See what he meant?

We stumble when we walk in darkness. Walking in darkness is not walking towards the light (Christ), but is walking in the exact opposite direction. So no, we don't stumble towards Christ.

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. John 11:9-10

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11​

 

[Willie-T]

Every cult's teachings are "so clear" to its devotees, and hidden from outsiders. The veil in this case is gnosis.

Isn't it interesting that what you just said is precisely what Jesus told His followers about His way?

 

[Grace777x70]

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge ( [FONT="Gentium" !important]gnosis )[/FONT] of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

[FONT="Gentium" !important]gnosis - knowledge
[/FONT]
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.

 

[Jimbone]

Now, for you who say they missed 777's meaning about "stumbling toward God", let me try to help you by showing how YOU, yourselves do that.

I am irritating to many of you, am I not? Just as you are irritating to me. (It's OK, you can admit it...... because if either of us denies it, we know we are lying.)

So, I am writing some "nonsense" to you about Jesus actually loving us. And you get fed up with me. What do you do? C'mon, you know. You answer my post in a way that you, as a Christian, normally wouldn't. (You know you do this just as much as I do.)

And, neither of us is proud of ourselves for stooping so low. But, Willie made you do it. My "stupid words" made you stumble.

But, did you "stumble" in a position of turning away from God? No, of course not. You were still walking toward God when I caused you to stumble.

So..... in which direction did you stumble when you typed that caustic reply to me? Toward God, or away from Him?

See what he meant?

But it doesn't mean we have to boast in our sin and advocate it. Do you never feel guilt at all when you sin now? Not a crippling fearful guilt, but a health "I don't want to do that again, I'm sorry Lord" guilt? I just don't understand when people lift up sin as OK yet condemn those who want to be righteous out of the awe inspiring love God has extended to us through His Son Jesus. It's the way I respond to the love and grace you're talking about. My WANT to walk and obey what Jesus wants me to is not chains or "law" to me and I don't have to do it, nor do do I do it in a begrudging "I have to, this sucks" kind of way. I am in awe of His love and grace and want to return that love in the best way my small feeble self can. Do you say I'm wrong for that? (not that it matters at all)

By the way I can only act this way through His Spirit and He gets ALL the glory, not me at all.

 

[Willie-T]

We stumble when we walk in darkness. Walking in darkness is not walking towards the light (Christ), but is walking in the exact opposite direction. So no, we don't stumble towards Christ.

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. John 11:9-10

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11​

Gosh, I didn't mean to get you to say that you willingly turn away from God. That's a little shocking, because I didn't think you would deliberately do that.

I don't.

 

[Willie-T]

But it doesn't mean we have to boast in our sin and advocate it. Do you never feel guilt at all when you sin now? Not a crippling fearful guilt, but a health "I don't want to do that again, I'm sorry Lord" guilt? I just don't understand when people lift up sin as OK yet condemn those who want to be righteous out of the awe inspiring love God has extended to us through His Son Jesus. It's the way I respond to the love and grace you're talking about. My WANT to walk and obey what Jesus wants me to is not chains or "law" to me and I don't have to do it, nor do do I do it in a begrudging "I have to, this sucks" kind of way. I am in awe of His love and grace and want to return that love in the best way my small feeble self can. Do you say I'm wrong for that? (not that it matters at all)

By the way I can only act this way through His Spirit and He gets ALL the glory, not me at all.

Of course we do. Each of has said that exact same thing many times.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And yet you still sin - every single day.


My goodness, your yoke must be heavy indeed.

And you bear false witness of me, which is sin. The Lord has set me free from sin, and I no longer live in sin because His seed remains in me. That is the substance and proof of a true conversion and rebirth in Christ by the Spirit of God. People can try to "imagine" themselves as born again, and try to imagine themselves "in Christ" and righteous, and holy all they want, but man in all his might cannot set himself free from sin unless the Son of God sets him free.

The Hyper grace doctrine tells it believers to think of yourself as righteous and you will become righteous,(at least in their own delusion) They say renew your own mind as if they had the power to transform themselves and overcome the spirit of this world by just taking thought. Man can no more renew his own mind than he can change the color of his skin by taking thought.

Jeremiah 13:23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.


This is nothing more than self effort trying to convert yourself and proclaiming yourself as righteous, even though the proof of your false conversion is showing your sinful words and actions. And in Joseph Princes case his walking in the flesh is proof, and his speaking lies and false doctrine by twisting and perverting the True gospel of Jesus Christ in order to gain more followers for more $$$$$$ is proof he also is reprobate.


Those who are born of God sin not. Those who sin are of the Devil. Search yourselves and see who you truly serve, either righteousness by the Holy Spirit or sin by the spirit of this world. Those who cannot cease from sin are cursed children.


2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer as he/she is in Christ....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

are being transformed = passive - this means that something is being acted upon you - you are not doing it.

( it's a by-product of being in Christ and seeing Him..we are transformed by the Spirit - to be outwardly what Christ has made us already in our inner man )

Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer as he/she is in Christ....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

If so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you! Not all have been born again of the Holy Spirit. You people do not understand this, and it shows in your words and doctrine. You think just because you say it is so, then it is so. God chooses whom He will give His Spirit and anointing to, not men.

Being righteous conscious is not being born again from above and given a new nature in Christ, as you cannot take thought and give birth to yourself.

 

[PeterJens]

The common experience here is a sense of guilt about behaviour.

What makes me wonder is we are using the same language but about different things.

I might feel guilty not saying hello to someone who I passed without noticing. Or I might be addicted to shop theft and just like the buzz of walking out without being caught.

Now though the language is the same, one is a social sensitivity and the other is real sin.

Some talk about anger, frustration, keeping a record of wrongs, fantasy revenge etc.
Now this creates a simple mess of ideas, when actually we could be saying very different things.

In one day I could not say I "sin". I might feel bad, not have peace, be struggling with issues, but what people are saying here is worrying. It is worrying because it is spoken of as justification of saying morality does not matter, conscience is irrelevant, I am accepted as I am, no change.

Now I accept Jesus accepts us completely as we are today with all our failings, as a work in progress.
The reason we need fellowship is to help us with this work in progress and to adjust our conscience to sense from non-sense of the world and guilt manipulation.

 

[KennethC]

Now, for you who say they missed 777's meaning about "stumbling toward God", let me try to help you by showing how YOU, yourselves do that.

I am irritating to many of you, am I not? Just as you are irritating to me. (It's OK, you can admit it...... because if either of us denies it, we know we are lying.)

So, I am writing some "nonsense" to you about Jesus actually loving us. And you get fed up with me. What do you do? C'mon, you know. You answer my post in a way that you, as a Christian, normally wouldn't. (You know you do this just as much as I do.)

And, neither of us is proud of ourselves for stooping so low. But, Willie made you do it. My "stupid words" made you stumble.

But, did you "stumble" in a position of turning away from God? No, of course not. You were still walking toward God when I caused you to stumble.

So..... in which direction did you stumble when you typed that caustic reply to me? Toward God, or away from Him?

See what he meant?

I see what you are saying and it makes absolute no sense biblically !!!

We are walking on the right path in the Light and when we stumble (sin) that is falling away from Christ, not toward Him !!!

When we stumble and sin we have to be corrected and restored to the Light, that is what the Lord's chastisement is all about. Correction and restoring, and that is what brings us back toward the Lord, not the stumble !!!

When you stumble/sin that means you took your eyes off Christ and put it back on the world/flesh.............

Apostle Peter is an example of this when he walked on water:

When his focus was on Christ he was able to do what Christ commanded him to do, when he took his focus off Christ and put it back on the world (the waves of water from the storm) he started to sink. He had to put his eyes back on Christ again then !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Gosh, I didn't mean to get you to say that you willingly turn away from God. That's a little shocking, because I didn't think you would deliberately do that.

I don't.

It's not necessarily a matter of deliberate sin.

No one who is being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each one is tempted [when he] is dragged away and enticed by his own desires. Then desire, [after it] has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, [when it] is brought to completion, gives birth to death. James 1:13-15​

 

[Utah]

I just don't understand when people lift up sin as OK yet condemn those who want to be righteous out of the awe inspiring love God has extended to us through His Son Jesus.

Brother Jimbone, blessings to you and yours always.

From my perspective, we're not lifting up sin but rather we're lifting up the sufficiency of God's grace. On the other hand, regarding those who want to be righteous, some folks, not all, are dangerously self righteousness unto themselves rather than faithfully righteous unto God.

I am often reminded of Luke 18:

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[Willie-T]

I see what you are saying and it makes absolute no sense biblically !!!

We are walking on the right path in the Light and when we stumble (sin) that is falling away from Christ, not toward Him !!!

When we stumble and sin we have to be corrected and restored to the Light, that is what the Lord's chastisement is all about. Correction and restoring, and that is what brings us back toward the Lord, not the stumble !!!

When you stumble/sin that means you took your eyes off Christ and put it back on the world/flesh.............

Apostle Peter is an example of this when he walked on water:

When his focus was on Christ he was able to do what Christ commanded him to do, when he took his focus off Christ and put it back on the world (the waves of water from the storm) he started to sink. He had to put his eyes back on Christ again then !!!

Could you point out the "guilt" and correction in that situation? None of that ever occurred. And, also, Peter did not beg for forgiveness before Jesus acted.

Jesus simply reached out and rescued him, and reminded him that he needed to keep his faith centered.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Could you point out the "guilt" and correction in that situation? None of that ever occurred. And, also, Peter did not beg for forgiveness before Jesus acted.

Jesus simply reached out and rescued him, and reminded him that he needed to keep his faith centered.

Amen we all need this reminder, As well as the fact God will always reach out and place our focus back on him no matter what.

without this knowledge, nothing will prevent us from giving up and walking away..