The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)

[Jimbone]

Brother Jimbone, blessings to you and yours always.

From my perspective, we're not lifting up sin but rather we're lifting up the sufficiency of God's grace. On the other hand, regarding those who want to be righteous, some folks, not all, are dangerously self righteousness unto themselves rather than faithfully righteous unto God.

I am often reminded of Luke 18:

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Thank you for the awesome greeting, and I am not saying this from an offended position, nor am I trying to be confrontational at all. I just have to testify of how I see it and how I've experienced it. For the regenerated believer that truly understands these things I agree fully. I understand exactly what they mean because I've been given eyes to see and ears to hear truth with. My concern comes in for the genuine seeker, or the false convert. This message almost landed me in hell. I thought I was a Christian and always heard these things like "we are all sinners, we will always sin, just believe you're saved and you are", basically they never mentioned the change a true conversion will bring. Well praise God the motorcycle wreak that took my right, and dominate, arm didn't kill me and I woke up 2 and a half weeks later, because I would have heard "depart from me, I NEVER knew you". I did not know Him at that point yet I was told weekly by my church that I did, and the fact I was living in sin daily didn't matter because of God grace and love.

Even when I was regenerated it took me a day or two to even realize what happen because I thought I was saved before, and I didn't even cry out for God or Jesus the day my pride died. I wasn't even sure I wanted to believe in God anymore at that point, I just hit my knees and said out loud "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose and I QUIT." I reached a place where I knew I couldn't "fix" anything anymore and my pride was killed, God saw I was submitted and ready for Him, and then He saved me, by His grace and love alone no doubt, but I woke up the next day a "new man". Overnight I completely changed lifelong habits, video games and porn to name a couple, and not out of begrudging servitude, but simply because He changed my heart, priories, and opened my eyes.

LOL, sorry I veered from my point I just like sharing His power in my life and giving Him ALL the glory for it. My main point was I agree with most everything they say, but omitting some kind of focus on the change of behaviors while always saying "we can sin, we always sin, everything is already forgiven", while true, can very misleading to many, and that is my problem with that approach, well that and the fact it almost had me separated for eternity with the very love and grace being preached.

Again thank you so much for the love and respect you showed with that comment, I hope I wrote mine in a way that returned it.

 

[BenFTW]

In another thread Ben created the idea that when he sins he is automatically repenting, or even better he repents before he commits the sins so everything is ok.

In this idea it does not matter what he does, because it is all in a spiritualised washing machine. So it makes sense that righteousness exists because though a person is sinning he is actually repenting at the same time so it is all alright.

This is where sanity leaves the room and labels become whatever you want them to be.

Bottom line they have zero integrity and to them it does not matter what they say because they believe they are forgiven.
This is antinomianism in action. The fact they the logically deny it does not help, but then lying is just not a problem.

Talk about representing someone falsely. Lets set some things straight. I sin. I am forgiven. I am in Christ. I repent. The list goes on, but what you misrepresented was the meaning behind my statement. You sin and then you repent, you do sin confession, and so on. My repentance happens even before I commit sin because my repentance is not like your repentance which is just a boast in the flesh and an empty promise to God.

My repentance is about renewing my mind to who I am in Christ (Identity) and walking out that reality. God says that I am the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ, so when I sin that is not in alignment with who I now am being dead to sin and alive unto God. My old man is crucified with Christ and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God (risen with Christ, newness of life).

So what I meant by me repenting even before I sin is that my repentance is a lifestyle and not just at the moment I sin. My repentance is a renewal of the mind, awakening to righteousness. Coming to find out what I have in Christ, and who I am in Him. As a result of this mind renewal, my actions are transformed. So where you sin and then try to shape up I am already shaping up by God's process of sanctification and through the renewal of my mind.

 

[Utah]

Wow, Jimbone! What a testimony! Thank you for sharing as you did. I admit, you moved me bro!

I see where you're coming from regarding new believers. There is indeed a fine walk, the Narrow Path, so to speak, where they need to understand the fullness of God's grace as well as their joyful calling to take up the cross daily. I obviously have always focused on the former much more so than the latter.

I do so because I know countless people who have little to no faith because they were beat up by Pharisees in one setting or another who preached nothing but condemnation, and I've seen the damage it causes. Yet not being taught what you have shared is harmful as well because people need to understand that God's grace is not cheap. Amen, Brother!

I always love what you bring to the Lord's Table here, bro! Always! Always! Always!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Talk about representing someone falsely. Lets set some things straight. I sin. I am forgiven. I am in Christ. I repent. The list goes on, but what you misrepresented was the meaning behind my statement. You sin and then you repent, you do sin confession, and so on. My repentance happens even before I commit sin because my repentance is not like your repentance which is just a boast in the flesh and an empty promise to God.

Hey if forgiveness of a sin happens before it's committed, why not repentance occurring before sin is committed?

What a twilight zone this is...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey if forgiveness of a sin happens before it's committed, why not repentance occurring before sin is committed?

What a twilight zone this is...

no the twighlight zone is saying a lie. then saying you must repent of that lie for that lie is forgiven

the ONLY way you can repent of that lie is if you did not believe that lie was a sin, was a lie, or against God to begin with.

so. you know lying is a sin, You know that what you are about to do is a lie, But you do it anyway, Then to say you ust repent of that sin to be forgiven,

Well thats the lie,, You can;t repent of something you already agreed was a sin,, All you can do is thank God for not striking you dead where you stood (because that is what you deserved for telling that lie) and start to look after the spirit, so next time, you do not lie.

 

[Jimbone]

Wow, Jimbone! What a testimony! Thank you for sharing as you did. I admit, you moved me bro!

I see where you're coming from regarding new believers. There is indeed a fine walk, the Narrow Path, so to speak, where they need to understand the fullness of God's grace as well as their joyful calling to take up the cross daily. I obviously have always focused on the former much more so than the latter.

I do so because I know countless people who have little to no faith because they were beat up by Pharisees in one setting or another who preached nothing but condemnation, and I've seen the damage it causes. Yet not being taught what you have shared is harmful as well because people need to understand that God's grace is not cheap. Amen, Brother!

I always love what you bring to the Lord's Table here, bro! Always! Always! Always!

I can say the same brother, and I also can understand concern for the other extreme as well. Always feeling like you can't measure up and are not good enough, I can MORE than understand how that has run just as many, if not more away from the Lord, so I just wanted to acknowledge that it can go way too far the other way as well if the behavior is all that is focused on at the expense of the love and grace. It can go both ways and there is a middle ground where we all come together to glorify His name. Man this little conversation is the best CC has made me feel in a while. Thank you so much brother, ALL glory to our AWESOME God, and I hope we ALL have a great weekend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can say the same brother, and I also can understand concern for the other extreme as well. Always feeling like you can't measure up and are not good enough, I can MORE than understand how that has run just as many, if not more away from the Lord, so I just wanted to acknowledge that it can go way too far the other way as well if the behavior is all that is focused on at the expense of the love and grace. It can go both ways and there is a middle ground where we all come together to glorify His name. Man this little conversation is the best CC has made me feel in a while. Thank you so much brother, ALL glory to our AWESOME God, and I hope we ALL have a great weekend.

It took me away from God for a few years.. I can just thank God for his grace ad mercy, or even after I returned, I would not have lasted long, and I would have left soon (probably dead)

 

[Jimbone]

It took me away from God for a few years.. I can just thank God for his grace ad mercy, or even after I returned, I would not have lasted long, and I would have left soon (probably dead)

I can fully understand that too, and I will praise Him too that you still came to know Him regardless. I honestly think I'm done arguing this subject at all. I'd rather do something better, like just thank God for saving folks like us no matter how He did it. I understand the importance for truth, but don't see much fruit coming from this constant debate really. If there is some I don't see personally then I'm sure there are plenty others to continue it 8^). All that aside I love you and anyone else here that loves our Lord, heck I even love those who don't, even though I think they should. Have a good weekend man, and all praise and glory to "OUR" King.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can fully understand that too, and I will praise Him too that you still came to know Him regardless. I honestly think I'm done arguing this subject at all. I'd rather do something better, like just thank God for saving folks like us no matter how He did it. I understand the importance for truth, but don't see much fruit coming from this constant debate really. If there is some I don't see personally then I'm sure there are plenty others to continue it 8^). All that aside I love you and anyone else here that loves our Lord, heck I even love those who don't, even though I think they should. Have a good weekend man, and all praise and glory to "OUR" King.

we love you too. I keep trying to walk away, but I keep getting sucked back into the conversation.. Just proves how weak and feeble I am. and still in need of Gods loving grace..

 

[Grace777x70]

aren't we all brother...aren't we all.....

we love you too. I keep trying to walk away, but I keep getting sucked back into the conversation.. Just proves how weak and feeble I am. and still in need of Gods loving grace..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

aren't we all brother...aren't we all.....

well most of us, Sadly some of us do not think this..

which is why the argument continues'

 

[Grace777x70]

Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit deal with all of us in whatever area He deems is fit for us individually? I don't see any fruit coming from these endless talks here. Some believe one way and some another.

The endless debates are useless and are really causing divisions amongst us which should not be. We should just "allow" the other to have the freedom to believe however they are inclined. This "attacking" each other and calling names and having malice towards another and slandering each other and leaders in the body of Christ must stop.

I for one am leaning towards just leaving the information and let the Holy Spirit show the people interested what He wants them to know about any area. If someone has a legitimate question , then that is fine and can be asked in a loving, respectful way..then those I will answer.

We can trust Him to reveal Jesus to us.

I just want people to have another view other then the so-called traditional view and the other side should be free to say what they want too as well. They too can leave websites or blogs for people to access to determine within themselves things.

I tend to think what Gamaliel had to say about disputes with the apostles might be appropriate here.

Acts 5:38-40 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
[SUP]39 [/SUP] but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
[SUP]40 [/SUP] They took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and then released them.

Let's all be willing to take a final flogging from both groups and then leave it in the Lord's mighty hands...we are all brothers and want to grow in the grace and knowledge of out Lord Jesus. Let's lift Him up. He is our Life!

 

[Jimbone]

we love you too. I keep trying to walk away, but I keep getting sucked back into the conversation.. Just proves how weak and feeble I am. and still in need of Gods loving grace..

You know what I just set myself up perfactly to show my weakness off to everyone on CC as well when you see me posting on this same subject in an hour , and the only strength I have in me anyway comes from Him and His Spirit He freely blessed me with anyway. I understand 1,000% what you mean and have show myself in the same light repeatedly on these very forums more than once sadly. I honestly think we have come to an understanding here. Praise God for that too. Man He is truly awesome.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know what I just set myself up perfactly to show my weakness off to everyone on CC as well when you see me posting on this same subject in an hour , and the only strength I have in me anyway comes from Him and His Spirit He freely blessed me with anyway. I understand 1,000% what you mean and have show myself in the same light repeatedly on these very forums more than once sadly. I honestly think we have come to an understanding here. Praise God for that too. Man He is truly awesome.

Thats why we need the body of Christ, So we can see we are not the only people who struggle. Because I do believe Satan likes to use that against us,, It is hard for him to us that when we all see we all struggle with the same things.. or similar things..

Thats why Grace and security in Christ has power. without it, all we have is a false sense of how good we are..

 

[PeterJens]

Talk about representing someone falsely. Lets set some things straight. I sin. I am forgiven. I am in Christ. I repent. The list goes on, but what you misrepresented was the meaning behind my statement. You sin and then you repent, you do sin confession, and so on. My repentance happens even before I commit sin because my repentance is not like your repentance which is just a boast in the flesh and an empty promise to God.

My repentance is about renewing my mind to who I am in Christ (Identity) and walking out that reality. God says that I am the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ, so when I sin that is not in alignment with who I now am being dead to sin and alive unto God. My old man is crucified with Christ and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God (risen with Christ, newness of life).

So what I meant by me repenting even before I sin is that my repentance is a lifestyle and not just at the moment I sin. My repentance is a renewal of the mind, awakening to righteousness. Coming to find out what I have in Christ, and who I am in Him. As a result of this mind renewal, my actions are transformed. So where you sin and then try to shape up I am already shaping up by God's process of sanctification and through the renewal of my mind.

In understanding God's grace, when we sin a repentance happens that acknowledges the sin and says to the Lord, 'Thank you Jesus. Thank you Lord for paying for this at the cross. Thank you my God, for your grace and mercy, for the Gospel." Our repentance is a repentance of praise, a thanksgiving towards God. Gratitude

Now if I am miss-representing you, I am sorry, but the above is what you wrote.

The rest I give up on, because clearly you will change what you believe tomorrow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now if I am miss-representing you, I am sorry, but the above is what you wrote.

The rest I give up on, because clearly you will change what you believe tomorrow.

rolls eyes.

This is quite ridiculous. and you call yourself a man of God..

 

[PeterJens]

rolls eyes.

This is quite ridiculous. and you call yourself a man of God..

EG you are such a pompous wind bag, you cut as much ice as a jelly

 

[BenFTW]

Now if I am miss-representing you, I am sorry, but the above is what you wrote.

The rest I give up on, because clearly you will change what you believe tomorrow.

Yes, there is no contradiction. If we commit a sin, there is nothing wrong with being open with the Lord about it. "Lord help me to renew my mind so that I may have victory over this area in my life." His answer is to renew our minds. You can give Him praise for Jesus, His work at the cross, and the sanctification process. Nothing here is requesting forgiveness, as I already have that in Jesus Christ. It is inviting God to help me, for the Holy Spirit to be my Teacher and bring revelation to help me to understand who I am in Jesus.

Again, repentance should be a daily practice of feeding on His word so that it is embedded into the very fibers of your being. No longer is it even a conscious decision but sub-conscious, it is who you are. You are the righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ. That is who you are, you are a new creation and the old man crucified. Dead to sin and alive unto God, let that transform your conduct, and not just rely upon the strength of your flesh to deny sin. Be holy as He is holy, not a matter of becoming but being. Present reality, and walk it out because it is who He says you are. God is not a liar.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

If you comment on someone else position which looks really way out there, keep a copy, because they will deny it all and try and make you look the aggressor. Know your enemy, because very often they have no clue what or why they are saying the stuff they do. I mean they are really men of God preaching from scripture, Gods gospel?

They started with condemnation, you are a legalist, a pharisee and not saved. I have been told to repent but not what of, and it carried on from there.

So you know the territory you are in, nutters alley where everything will be turned upside down.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, there is no contradiction.

Ben. What might be in your mind might not contradict your thoughts, but your language does.

"In understanding God's grace, when we sin a repentance happens "

This is a sentance with a cause sin effect repentance. Sin does not cause repentance, the conviction of sin brings awarness of the sin and the believer chooses to repent or not.

What you wrote was not that. Now if you want to dispute your own words, it is pointless, as it means what it means.

This is not a way to honour our Lord or truth. Unfortunately if truth matters this little to you, I cannot take you seriously, even though you appear very articulate this is a simple 15 year old error.

Now to suggest I am miss-representing what you write, is actually slander. It is up to the reader to decide, my conscience is clear.