Bible Character Study: Ahasuerus
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My bad to all, been in a sorta funk lately. Not trying to quit CC, but just kinda trying to be chilling back some more from the internet. Lol I get your point on this. Was saving for that moreso the last two chapters of Book of Esther as they are somewhat more key in answering the Main Question of Who is Ahasuerus of Esther (Xerxes, Artaxerxes, or other Persian king?)
My bad I will try to finish off posting Esther for us to study. For now, perhaps some ponderings on the other two questions though can be discerned from the text. For instance obviously, what the Bible says about him and your all opinions on his morality scale, good, bad, or indifferent king. Also feel free to post any other sources yourself or just frankly your own thoughts. Or explore your own tangents between yourselves lol meant this as a discussion topic, not an interview on my personal beliefs. I'll just give you my opinion and also I plan on posting at least in full Book of Esther.
So sorry to not directly answer your question lady IS lol but if you read ahead perhaps you'll deduce my angle on it as I have stated I think evidence weighs strongly that this might very well be indeed Xerxes I, Slayer of Spartans. If not I'll tell you when we get there lol. Guess then with that said we move to chapter 7.
An interesting chapter to the point of the question whether Ahasuerus is a good guy or bad guy. Obviously kinda answers the second question just by posting the chapter and discussing. While indeed Haman is clearly treacherous and evil, king Ahasuerus does have the guy impaled or hung to death and the Bible says he determined evil and that he was wrathful. Yet at the same time Haman basically insulted the king by going into his Queen's bedroom in his own house to boot, and it is fairly kingly poetic justice for Haman to be hung on the gallows (or gibbet in some translations) which he intended for Mordecai and the people of Israel. Which perhaps somewhat absolves Ahasuerus' famous anger making the question of his morality remain open for the next chapter and the reader to decide on a whole.
Esther 7
1 So the king and Haman came to banquet with Esther the queen.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? and it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then Esther the queen answered and said, If I have found favour in thy sight, O king, and if it please the king, let my life be given me at my petition, and my people at my request:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we are sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the enemy could not countervail the king's damage.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the king Ahasuerus answered and said unto Esther the queen, Who is he, and where is he, that durst presume in his heart to do so?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Esther said, The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman. Then Haman was afraid before the king and the queen.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the king arising from the banquet of wine in his wrath went into the palace garden: and Haman stood up to make request for his life to Esther the queen; for he saw that there was evil determined against him by the king.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the king returned out of the palace garden into the place of the banquet of wine; and Haman was fallen upon the bed whereon Esther was. Then said the king, Will he force the queen also before me in the house? As the word went out of king's mouth, they covered Haman's face.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Harbonah, one of the chamberlains, said before the king, Behold also, the gallows fifty cubits high, which Haman had made for Mordecai, who spoken good for the king, standeth in the house of Haman. Then the king said, Hang him thereon.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified.
My bad I will try to finish off posting Esther for us to study. For now, perhaps some ponderings on the other two questions though can be discerned from the text. For instance obviously, what the Bible says about him and your all opinions on his morality scale, good, bad, or indifferent king. Also feel free to post any other sources yourself or just frankly your own thoughts. Or explore your own tangents between yourselves lol meant this as a discussion topic, not an interview on my personal beliefs. I'll just give you my opinion and also I plan on posting at least in full Book of Esther.
So sorry to not directly answer your question lady IS lol but if you read ahead perhaps you'll deduce my angle on it as I have stated I think evidence weighs strongly that this might very well be indeed Xerxes I, Slayer of Spartans. If not I'll tell you when we get there lol. Guess then with that said we move to chapter 7.
An interesting chapter to the point of the question whether Ahasuerus is a good guy or bad guy. Obviously kinda answers the second question just by posting the chapter and discussing. While indeed Haman is clearly treacherous and evil, king Ahasuerus does have the guy impaled or hung to death and the Bible says he determined evil and that he was wrathful. Yet at the same time Haman basically insulted the king by going into his Queen's bedroom in his own house to boot, and it is fairly kingly poetic justice for Haman to be hung on the gallows (or gibbet in some translations) which he intended for Mordecai and the people of Israel. Which perhaps somewhat absolves Ahasuerus' famous anger making the question of his morality remain open for the next chapter and the reader to decide on a whole.
Esther 7
1 So the king and Haman came to banquet with Esther the queen.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? and it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then Esther the queen answered and said, If I have found favour in thy sight, O king, and if it please the king, let my life be given me at my petition, and my people at my request:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we are sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the enemy could not countervail the king's damage.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the king Ahasuerus answered and said unto Esther the queen, Who is he, and where is he, that durst presume in his heart to do so?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Esther said, The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman. Then Haman was afraid before the king and the queen.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the king arising from the banquet of wine in his wrath went into the palace garden: and Haman stood up to make request for his life to Esther the queen; for he saw that there was evil determined against him by the king.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the king returned out of the palace garden into the place of the banquet of wine; and Haman was fallen upon the bed whereon Esther was. Then said the king, Will he force the queen also before me in the house? As the word went out of king's mouth, they covered Haman's face.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Harbonah, one of the chamberlains, said before the king, Behold also, the gallows fifty cubits high, which Haman had made for Mordecai, who spoken good for the king, standeth in the house of Haman. Then the king said, Hang him thereon.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified.
I
Sorry to hear your in a bit of a funk. I think we all have it happen at one time or another. CC can be a bit consuming at times. When I was on The History Channel forums there were people that you wouldn't get a reply from for a week, most a day or two. If your where the weather is bad snow and what not, that can really affect one's attitude. Maybe we should set a rule on this thread that we will not reply for a day or two at least that way we won't be tied to the computer.
Would you be willing to agree that secular evidence can be used if the framework is based on Scripture?
I'm going to go back and read upto Chap.7 again.
Would you be willing to agree that secular evidence can be used if the framework is based on Scripture?
I'm going to go back and read upto Chap.7 again.
Lol I have all ready said you may posit secular sources, though whether they be real evidence that for my own personal opinion and part I may contest and/or scrutinize lol, but by all means you may for the sake of your scrutiny of the topic also and the wider discussion post whatever pertaining to the three questions. I am familiar with a lot of the sources and/or theories/mythologies at least as they pertain to Xerxes if we be assuming he is indeed Ahasuerus. I am also familiar with possible, but not totally confirmed extra-biblical archaeological type proofs that may be indicator to either Ahasuerus identity, overall character, and may possibly be in correlation and alignment with an orthodox Biblical view. Mordecai is a big factor in this actually, especially in the closing chapters, and is a hint at my theory that Ahasuerus may indeed be Xerxes when compared to the Bible book of Esther alongside a possible secular proof.
Anyways indeed Book of Esther is a great book whatever the case may be, have read it many times. Just a good angle I suppose to freshen up some Bible Study and Discussion, so I suppose I'll post chapter 8 but by all means feel free to refer back to any of the chapters or scrutinize off on your own tangents.
Esther 8
1 On that day did the king Ahasuerus give the house of Haman the Jews' enemy unto Esther the queen. And Mordecai came before the king; for Esther had told what he was unto her.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the king took off his ring, which he had taken from Haman, and gave it unto Mordecai. And Esther set Mordecai over the house of Haman.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Esther spake yet again before the king, and fell down at his feet, and besought him with tears to put away the mischief of Haman the Agagite, and his device that he had devised against the Jews.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the king held out the golden sceptre toward Esther. So Esther arose, and stood before the king,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And said, If it please the king, and if I have favour in his sight, and the thing seem right before the king, and I be pleasing in his eyes, let it be written to reverse the letters devised by Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews which are in all the king's provinces:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For how can I endure to see the evil that shall come unto my people? or how can I endure to see the destruction of my kindred?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the king Ahasuerus said unto Esther the queen and to Mordecai the Jew, Behold, I have given Esther the house of Haman, and him they have hanged upon the gallows, because he laid his hand upon the Jews.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then were the king's scribes called at that time in the third month, that is, the month Sivan, on the three and twentieth day thereof; and it was written according to all that Mordecai commanded unto the Jews, and to the lieutenants, and the deputies and rulers of the provinces which are from India unto Ethiopia, an hundred twenty and seven provinces, unto every province according to the writing thereof, and unto every people after their language, and to the Jews according to their writing, and according to their language.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Upon one day in all the provinces of king Ahasuerus, namely, upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, and that the Jews should be ready against that day to avenge themselves on their enemies.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So the posts that rode upon mules and camels went out, being hastened and pressed on by the king's commandment. And the decree was given at Shushan the palace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Mordecai went out from the presence of the king in royal apparel of blue and white, and with a great crown of gold, and with a garment of fine linen and purple: and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Jews had light, and gladness, and joy, and honour.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
Anyways indeed Book of Esther is a great book whatever the case may be, have read it many times. Just a good angle I suppose to freshen up some Bible Study and Discussion, so I suppose I'll post chapter 8 but by all means feel free to refer back to any of the chapters or scrutinize off on your own tangents.
Esther 8
1 On that day did the king Ahasuerus give the house of Haman the Jews' enemy unto Esther the queen. And Mordecai came before the king; for Esther had told what he was unto her.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the king took off his ring, which he had taken from Haman, and gave it unto Mordecai. And Esther set Mordecai over the house of Haman.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Esther spake yet again before the king, and fell down at his feet, and besought him with tears to put away the mischief of Haman the Agagite, and his device that he had devised against the Jews.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the king held out the golden sceptre toward Esther. So Esther arose, and stood before the king,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And said, If it please the king, and if I have favour in his sight, and the thing seem right before the king, and I be pleasing in his eyes, let it be written to reverse the letters devised by Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews which are in all the king's provinces:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For how can I endure to see the evil that shall come unto my people? or how can I endure to see the destruction of my kindred?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the king Ahasuerus said unto Esther the queen and to Mordecai the Jew, Behold, I have given Esther the house of Haman, and him they have hanged upon the gallows, because he laid his hand upon the Jews.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then were the king's scribes called at that time in the third month, that is, the month Sivan, on the three and twentieth day thereof; and it was written according to all that Mordecai commanded unto the Jews, and to the lieutenants, and the deputies and rulers of the provinces which are from India unto Ethiopia, an hundred twenty and seven provinces, unto every province according to the writing thereof, and unto every people after their language, and to the Jews according to their writing, and according to their language.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Upon one day in all the provinces of king Ahasuerus, namely, upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, and that the Jews should be ready against that day to avenge themselves on their enemies.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So the posts that rode upon mules and camels went out, being hastened and pressed on by the king's commandment. And the decree was given at Shushan the palace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Mordecai went out from the presence of the king in royal apparel of blue and white, and with a great crown of gold, and with a garment of fine linen and purple: and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Jews had light, and gladness, and joy, and honour.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
I
I tell you GIS, I found your post to be insulting. The use of the word "tangent" as if what ever I say you will find to be irrelevent is unsettling. Your use of "lol" looks like it is directed at people as if what they say will not be sufficient. You need to do some soul searching tonight and make a decision to change the way you post.
I'm not trying to mean it as insulting. I see Tangents as like the side scripts, for instance the tangents I am mainly pursuing to the topic is to post Book of Esther and give my personal opinion and I am actually quite interested in your and other peoples' tangents and exploring them as it pertains to the topic. I suppose in text it is kinda hard to tell the tone. Lol means to laugh out loud, when I post lol it means genuinely I find things funny in a just kinda cute way. I have a strange humor I guess, not many on here seem to get it. Laugh with me lady IS don't be afraid I like you indeed.
Lol I laugh there in the beginning because I feel like it is rather you who are not understanding me as I have said now three times you may pursue the secular tangents, just I feel I have to remind that I am a person too and I also will assert my feelings and my views/tangents as people always seem to want to run me down and dismiss and ridicule me and wish all sorts of cruel and sometimes admittedly just so bizarre it's funny things upon me.
So I am mindful I have to assert my right to my opinion also and I will give it. Which is also part of what I am trying to convey in that post. This a discussion though, I do not disvalue you as a person at all but rather highly value all you CCers, which is why I have never and will never ask to ban any person here or to shut up any of them here. In fact it's why I make the topic to begin with rather than simply keeping it locked up in the cage of the skull. Obviously I am fine with you wanting to go down any tangents, I like you lady IS, if anything for your good taste in music, and see you as at least basely equal if not greater than me so you ought not feel ashamed to put forth your own thoughts and make your own arguments.
Lol I laugh there in the beginning because I feel like it is rather you who are not understanding me as I have said now three times you may pursue the secular tangents, just I feel I have to remind that I am a person too and I also will assert my feelings and my views/tangents as people always seem to want to run me down and dismiss and ridicule me and wish all sorts of cruel and sometimes admittedly just so bizarre it's funny things upon me.
So I am mindful I have to assert my right to my opinion also and I will give it. Which is also part of what I am trying to convey in that post. This a discussion though, I do not disvalue you as a person at all but rather highly value all you CCers, which is why I have never and will never ask to ban any person here or to shut up any of them here. In fact it's why I make the topic to begin with rather than simply keeping it locked up in the cage of the skull. Obviously I am fine with you wanting to go down any tangents, I like you lady IS, if anything for your good taste in music, and see you as at least basely equal if not greater than me so you ought not feel ashamed to put forth your own thoughts and make your own arguments.
You ain't gotta apologize lady IS, lol, not meaning to come on strong again or nothing. Just trying to like make plain so we can just continue 
. Lol I will be a lil foolish and boast myself I am incredibly well read myself, but indeed to debase meself in turn, perhaps admittedly not the best understood writer, kinda an awkward communicator.
. Lol I will be a lil foolish and boast myself I am incredibly well read myself, but indeed to debase meself in turn, perhaps admittedly not the best understood writer, kinda an awkward communicator.
I
You ain't gotta apologize lady IS, lol, not meaning to come on strong again or nothing. Just trying to like make plain so we can just continue . Lol I will be a lil foolish and boast myself I am incredibly well read myself, but indeed to debase meself in turn, perhaps admittedly not the best understood writer, kinda an awkward communicator.
. Lol I will be a lil foolish and boast myself I am incredibly well read myself, but indeed to debase meself in turn, perhaps admittedly not the best understood writer, kinda an awkward communicator.
Well chapter 9 of course lol.
But that's what I mean by tangents, by all means, whatever tangents, your thoughts on chapter 8, the whole book, the topic of Ahasuerus character to the 3 main questions, or your personal thoughts in general, or your thoughts on other sources/tangents/theories in relation to Book of Esther, Ahasuerus, his character, what the Bible says, and whether hero, villain, or indifferent. And I guess also the implied unofficial rule of just misc. thoughts.
Good chapter for those tangents actually. Like coming back to origin of Purim as a holiday and ponderings with sir Buzzard which is somewhat reprised in Chapter 9 here, and lady Magenta's mention that indeed it is something of a known but sorta Bible trivia controversy fact Book of Esther does not explicitly feature direct mention of God within the book itself. Yet at same time I personally in my opinion I can believe it is canonical and it is a good story. Overall point of Book of Esther, and even canonical Bible is that God saved Mordecai, Esther, Ahasuerus, and the jews, and even in a way the Medo-Persian Empire from one those cliche infamous ancient insider coup and genocide plottings. Adds to interest of the story though is kinda dramatic no doubt, but at same time a point to it as a good Bible book for a BDF or so I thought lol. Bible only is not explicitly stated to some of these questions but is somewhat deduced, so, it's somewhat a fair game to ponder on and many good point can be made overall. Is an epic tale for sure though.
Esther 9
1 Now in the twelfth month, that is, the month Adar, on the thirteenth day of the same, when the king's commandment and his decree drew near to be put in execution, in the day that the enemies of the Jews hoped to have power over them, (though it was turned to the contrary, that the Jews had rule over them that hated them; )
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Jews gathered themselves together in their cities throughout all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, to lay hand on such as sought their hurt: and no man could withstand them; for the fear of them fell upon all people.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And all the rulers of the provinces, and the lieutenants, and the deputies, and officers of the king, helped the Jews; because the fear of Mordecai fell upon them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Mordecai was great in the king's house, and his fame went out throughout all the provinces: for this man Mordecai waxed greater and greater.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus the Jews smote all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, and slaughter, and destruction, and did what they would unto those that hated them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And in Shushan the palace the Jews slew and destroyed five hundred men.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Parshandatha, and Dalphon, and Aspatha,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Poratha, and Adalia, and Aridatha,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Parmashta, and Arisai, and Aridai, and Vajezatha,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The ten sons of Haman the son of Hammedatha, the enemy of the Jews, slew they; but on the spoil laid they not their hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the number of those that were slain in Shushan the palace was brought before the king.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the king said unto Esther the queen, The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the palace, and the ten sons of Haman; what have they done in the rest of the king's provinces? now what is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee: or what is thy request further? and it shall be done.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then said Esther, If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews which are in Shushan to do to morrow also according unto this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the king commanded it so to be done: and the decree was given at Shushan; and they hanged Haman's ten sons.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the Jews that were in Shushan gathered themselves together on the fourteenth day also of the month Adar, and slew three hundred men at Shushan; but on the prey they laid not their hand.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But the other Jews that were in the king's provinces gathered themselves together, and stood for their lives, and had rest from their enemies, and slew of their foes seventy and five thousand, but they laid not their hands on the prey,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]On the thirteenth day of the month Adar; and on the fourteenth day of the same rested they, and made it a day of feasting and gladness.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But the Jews that were at Shushan assembled together on the thirteenth day thereof, and on the fourteenth thereof; and on the fifteenth day of the same they rested, and made it a day of feasting and gladness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore the Jews of the villages, that dwelt in the unwalled towns, made the fourteenth day of the month Adar a day of gladness and feasting, and a good day, and of sending portions one to another.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And Mordecai wrote these things, and sent letters unto all the Jews that were in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, both nigh and far,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To stablish this among them, that they should keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same, yearly,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Jews undertook to do as they had begun, and as Mordecai had written unto them;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Because Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the enemy of all the Jews, had devised against the Jews to destroy them, and had cast Pur, that is, the lot, to consume them, and to destroy them;
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But when Esther came before the king, he commanded by letters that his wicked device, which he devised against the Jews, should return upon his own head, and that he and his sons should be hanged on the gallows.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur. Therefore for all the words of this letter, and of that which they had seen concerning this matter, and which had come unto them,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves unto them, so as it should not fail, that they would keep these two days according to their writing, and according to their appointed time every year;
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, every family, every province, and every city; and that these days of Purim should not fail from among the Jews, nor the memorial of them perish from their seed.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then Esther the queen, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew, wrote with all authority, to confirm this second letter of Purim.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he sent the letters unto all the Jews, to the hundred twenty and seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, with words of peace and truth,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]To confirm these days of Purim in their times appointed, according as Mordecai the Jew and Esther the queen had enjoined them, and as they had decreed for themselves and for their seed, the matters of the fastings and their cry.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And the decree of Esther confirmed these matters of Purim; and it was written in the book.
But that's what I mean by tangents, by all means, whatever tangents, your thoughts on chapter 8, the whole book, the topic of Ahasuerus character to the 3 main questions, or your personal thoughts in general, or your thoughts on other sources/tangents/theories in relation to Book of Esther, Ahasuerus, his character, what the Bible says, and whether hero, villain, or indifferent. And I guess also the implied unofficial rule of just misc. thoughts.
Good chapter for those tangents actually. Like coming back to origin of Purim as a holiday and ponderings with sir Buzzard which is somewhat reprised in Chapter 9 here, and lady Magenta's mention that indeed it is something of a known but sorta Bible trivia controversy fact Book of Esther does not explicitly feature direct mention of God within the book itself. Yet at same time I personally in my opinion I can believe it is canonical and it is a good story. Overall point of Book of Esther, and even canonical Bible is that God saved Mordecai, Esther, Ahasuerus, and the jews, and even in a way the Medo-Persian Empire from one those cliche infamous ancient insider coup and genocide plottings. Adds to interest of the story though is kinda dramatic no doubt, but at same time a point to it as a good Bible book for a BDF or so I thought lol. Bible only is not explicitly stated to some of these questions but is somewhat deduced, so, it's somewhat a fair game to ponder on and many good point can be made overall. Is an epic tale for sure though.
Esther 9
1 Now in the twelfth month, that is, the month Adar, on the thirteenth day of the same, when the king's commandment and his decree drew near to be put in execution, in the day that the enemies of the Jews hoped to have power over them, (though it was turned to the contrary, that the Jews had rule over them that hated them; )
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Jews gathered themselves together in their cities throughout all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, to lay hand on such as sought their hurt: and no man could withstand them; for the fear of them fell upon all people.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And all the rulers of the provinces, and the lieutenants, and the deputies, and officers of the king, helped the Jews; because the fear of Mordecai fell upon them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Mordecai was great in the king's house, and his fame went out throughout all the provinces: for this man Mordecai waxed greater and greater.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus the Jews smote all their enemies with the stroke of the sword, and slaughter, and destruction, and did what they would unto those that hated them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And in Shushan the palace the Jews slew and destroyed five hundred men.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Parshandatha, and Dalphon, and Aspatha,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Poratha, and Adalia, and Aridatha,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Parmashta, and Arisai, and Aridai, and Vajezatha,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The ten sons of Haman the son of Hammedatha, the enemy of the Jews, slew they; but on the spoil laid they not their hand.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the number of those that were slain in Shushan the palace was brought before the king.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the king said unto Esther the queen, The Jews have slain and destroyed five hundred men in Shushan the palace, and the ten sons of Haman; what have they done in the rest of the king's provinces? now what is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee: or what is thy request further? and it shall be done.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then said Esther, If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews which are in Shushan to do to morrow also according unto this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the king commanded it so to be done: and the decree was given at Shushan; and they hanged Haman's ten sons.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the Jews that were in Shushan gathered themselves together on the fourteenth day also of the month Adar, and slew three hundred men at Shushan; but on the prey they laid not their hand.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But the other Jews that were in the king's provinces gathered themselves together, and stood for their lives, and had rest from their enemies, and slew of their foes seventy and five thousand, but they laid not their hands on the prey,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]On the thirteenth day of the month Adar; and on the fourteenth day of the same rested they, and made it a day of feasting and gladness.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But the Jews that were at Shushan assembled together on the thirteenth day thereof, and on the fourteenth thereof; and on the fifteenth day of the same they rested, and made it a day of feasting and gladness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore the Jews of the villages, that dwelt in the unwalled towns, made the fourteenth day of the month Adar a day of gladness and feasting, and a good day, and of sending portions one to another.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And Mordecai wrote these things, and sent letters unto all the Jews that were in all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, both nigh and far,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To stablish this among them, that they should keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar, and the fifteenth day of the same, yearly,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Jews undertook to do as they had begun, and as Mordecai had written unto them;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Because Haman the son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the enemy of all the Jews, had devised against the Jews to destroy them, and had cast Pur, that is, the lot, to consume them, and to destroy them;
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But when Esther came before the king, he commanded by letters that his wicked device, which he devised against the Jews, should return upon his own head, and that he and his sons should be hanged on the gallows.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur. Therefore for all the words of this letter, and of that which they had seen concerning this matter, and which had come unto them,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves unto them, so as it should not fail, that they would keep these two days according to their writing, and according to their appointed time every year;
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, every family, every province, and every city; and that these days of Purim should not fail from among the Jews, nor the memorial of them perish from their seed.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Then Esther the queen, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew, wrote with all authority, to confirm this second letter of Purim.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he sent the letters unto all the Jews, to the hundred twenty and seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, with words of peace and truth,
[SUP]31 [/SUP]To confirm these days of Purim in their times appointed, according as Mordecai the Jew and Esther the queen had enjoined them, and as they had decreed for themselves and for their seed, the matters of the fastings and their cry.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And the decree of Esther confirmed these matters of Purim; and it was written in the book.
I
In Esther 1:1 wouldn't the provinces (satrapies) be a major key in identifying who Ahasuerus was? I think it's "other."
Very little personally, only that he could be a jerk when he drank too much.
I don't see him as either three but only a bit player because without God's intervention in this whole thing Esther would have never gained the position she did. Even though God isn't mentioned parsa it is implied that they believed in Him since Esther asks in 4:16 for Modecai and the Jews to fast for her for three days and since fasting is connected with humbling of the soul before God I think it is obvious that Esther, Mordecai, and the Jews of the the region believed in God.
Very little personally, only that he could be a jerk when he drank too much.
I don't see him as either three but only a bit player because without God's intervention in this whole thing Esther would have never gained the position she did. Even though God isn't mentioned parsa it is implied that they believed in Him since Esther asks in 4:16 for Modecai and the Jews to fast for her for three days and since fasting is connected with humbling of the soul before God I think it is obvious that Esther, Mordecai, and the Jews of the the region believed in God.
I
It is believed that Esther is an end-time prophecy and the Jews triumph over the Antichrist in the Great Tribulation. The ten sons of Haman that were closely associated with their father in his infamy and fate, prefigure the Antichrist's ten-kingdom confederation (Rev.13&17; Dan.2:41, 7:20-28) which will crash with him at his fall and terrible end (Dan.2:34-35).
Psalm 83 is also believed to be an end-time prophecy.
Psalm 83 is also believed to be an end-time prophecy.
Well I'd say firstly he was celebrating, sometimes people get drunk at celebrations. Even in the Bible, just look for instance at the Wedding in Cana, they were drinking and having a merry old time. So I don't think I can fault Ahasuerus for drinking his own wine in his own house at his own party. Funny enough in Chapter 1 Verse 8 describes the drinking as lawful, no man was compelled. Also interestingly, the text does not specify whether or not Ahasuerus himself was drunk, though I concede it's not unrealistic either.
I don't think it's all that humiliating for Ahasuerus to just want to show off his wife's beauty. Keep in mind the whole point of the party was he was showing off his kingly splendor, of which a king's beautiful queen is his crown jewel. If anything that just shows he held her in high esteem and that it was rather Vashti whom humiliated him. It actually makes a lot of sense for the nobles to have their council as the nobles feared that then all the women of the empire would become basically ancient feminists and treat their husbands defiantly when they learned of Vashti's example.
Then if you think of it in the overall destiny kinda spectrum, if he didn't get rid of Vashti he may never have married Esther and if he never married Esther it's quite possible the jews may have been genocided. Shoulda/woulda/coulda though is kinda weak arguing.
A sorta interesting tangent related to this is the comparison of Esther to Vashti as examples of femininity vs feminism. I think Esther by her personality is by leaps and bounds a more desirable woman to have for a wife, but that's just from a biased single male perspective lol. Vashti has that feminist personality that to the world seems bold and cool and all that, but it's that feminist defiance that makes such women not good wives for most Christian men. Now some guys in this day and age can bear with a Vashti, but remember Ahasuerus, no matter what his morality, was not like a deadbeat dad, I mean this is a guy that had the job of managing one of the biggest empires in all of history. Now I know in the modern sense they might see Esther as like a docile housewife with controlling husband. Yet if you think about it Esther is actually much braver than Vashti, Esther after all jeopardies her life to appear before the king when she is not called, which is a capital offense, and she saved an entire race of people and indirectly may have even saved Ahasuerus, or at the least of it his regime from an insider coup plot.
It is interesting stuff though. Interesting tangent for sure. Very interesting one too for the modern era, and indeed we are not the first people to have brought this up, but its been argued at least nearly a century before us. In a ways it kinda feeds into the question of Ahasuerus' morality, so it is indeed an interesting facet of the story for the fair ponderings.
I don't think it's all that humiliating for Ahasuerus to just want to show off his wife's beauty. Keep in mind the whole point of the party was he was showing off his kingly splendor, of which a king's beautiful queen is his crown jewel. If anything that just shows he held her in high esteem and that it was rather Vashti whom humiliated him. It actually makes a lot of sense for the nobles to have their council as the nobles feared that then all the women of the empire would become basically ancient feminists and treat their husbands defiantly when they learned of Vashti's example.
Then if you think of it in the overall destiny kinda spectrum, if he didn't get rid of Vashti he may never have married Esther and if he never married Esther it's quite possible the jews may have been genocided. Shoulda/woulda/coulda though is kinda weak arguing.
A sorta interesting tangent related to this is the comparison of Esther to Vashti as examples of femininity vs feminism. I think Esther by her personality is by leaps and bounds a more desirable woman to have for a wife, but that's just from a biased single male perspective lol. Vashti has that feminist personality that to the world seems bold and cool and all that, but it's that feminist defiance that makes such women not good wives for most Christian men. Now some guys in this day and age can bear with a Vashti, but remember Ahasuerus, no matter what his morality, was not like a deadbeat dad, I mean this is a guy that had the job of managing one of the biggest empires in all of history. Now I know in the modern sense they might see Esther as like a docile housewife with controlling husband. Yet if you think about it Esther is actually much braver than Vashti, Esther after all jeopardies her life to appear before the king when she is not called, which is a capital offense, and she saved an entire race of people and indirectly may have even saved Ahasuerus, or at the least of it his regime from an insider coup plot.
It is interesting stuff though. Interesting tangent for sure. Very interesting one too for the modern era, and indeed we are not the first people to have brought this up, but its been argued at least nearly a century before us. In a ways it kinda feeds into the question of Ahasuerus' morality, so it is indeed an interesting facet of the story for the fair ponderings.
Also guess I'll finish off book of Esther. This last chapter goes back to our little exchange in posts 21 and 22. Though incredibly short Chapter 10 may actually be the key hint to answering our question pertaining to Ahasuerus identity as Xerxes, Artaxerxes, or another Medo-Persian king, but I'll elaborate on this in another post.
Esther 10
1 And the king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land, and upon the isles of the sea.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the wealth of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed.
Esther 10
1 And the king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land, and upon the isles of the sea.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the wealth of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed.
I
The best I can do woud be to quote from Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones about Mordecai's age.
"The last and most pertinent data necessary in correctly indentifying Ahasuerus is the direct internal evidence within the biblical story itself concerning the age of Mordecai. The erroneous indentification of Ahasuerus with Xerxes, compounded by other poor judgements, has caused most modern scholars to reject that Mordecai was taken away from Jerusalem with Jeconiah in "the captivity" of 597 BC despite the clear declaration of Esther 2:5-6 which so proclaims.
This biblical assertion is rejcted because, having already erroneously presumed that Ahasuerus is Xerxes, the appearence of the verse as it stands would force Mordecai to be at least 113 years old (597-484 BC [the 3rd year of Xerxes; Esther 1:1-3] at the beginning of the story (if he were a newborn when carried away). Moreover, Mordecai would have been a minimum of 125 at the close of the book when he became "prime minister" in the king's 12th year (Essther 10:3, cp. 3:7). Though this would be possible, it is somewhat unlikely as only one man's age has been reported in Scripture as being that great since the days of "the judges" (over 700 years!). Besides, as Esther is Mordecai's first cousin (Esther 2:7), she would tend to be too old to fit the context of the story.
The solution to the dilemma, accepted by nearly all, has been to impose an unnatural rendering of the Esther 2:5-6 passage compelling the verse to read as though it were Kish, Mordecai's great-grandfather, who was carried away in 597 BC with Jeconiah rather than Mordecai himself. Notwithstanding, this interpretation is neither true nor an accurate rendering of the Hebrew construction which affirms that it was Mordecai who was carried away with Jechoniah. Only by a tortured, forced grammatical construction could this sentence be applied to his great-grandfather Kish.
The entire matter is resolved by simply letting the Bible speak for itself. This excessive age problem is simply due to a failure to accept the obvious which is that the Ahasuerus of Esther is actually Darius Hystaspis and not Xerxes. When this is seen, the age of Mordecai will be significantly reduced to a more reasonable and believable value (as will Ezra's and Nehemiah's, see fn. 1, p.204). Moreover, it is the persistent insistence by most modern scholars that "Ahasuerus" is Xerxes that has caused the problem. 3
Footnote:
3. The Book of Esther says nothing about Xerxes' attempt to avenge his father's humiliating 490 BC trouncing by the Greeks at Marathon. After his defeat at Salamis (end of September) in 480 (his 6th year), Xerxes fled 400 miles in 45 days to the Hellespont (mid November) - still 1,300 miles from Shushan. Now Esther ws brought into the house of the women in the 6th year of Ahasuerus and into the king's house in his 7th (Est.2:16; cp. vv. 8&12). Were Ahaseurus Xerxes, the search for the "fair young virgins" would have begun in 480 (his 6th year, see Chart 5c) or 481 - the very years Xerxes was at war in Greece - yet Ahaseurus was at the palace in Shushan at the beginning of the search (Est.2:4-5)! Thus the events in Esther do not fit well with the historical facts regarding Xerxes.
The Chronology of the Old Testament, Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, 16th Edition, Copyright 1993-2004 by Floyd Nolen Jones Ministries, Inc., pg. 203.
"The last and most pertinent data necessary in correctly indentifying Ahasuerus is the direct internal evidence within the biblical story itself concerning the age of Mordecai. The erroneous indentification of Ahasuerus with Xerxes, compounded by other poor judgements, has caused most modern scholars to reject that Mordecai was taken away from Jerusalem with Jeconiah in "the captivity" of 597 BC despite the clear declaration of Esther 2:5-6 which so proclaims.
This biblical assertion is rejcted because, having already erroneously presumed that Ahasuerus is Xerxes, the appearence of the verse as it stands would force Mordecai to be at least 113 years old (597-484 BC [the 3rd year of Xerxes; Esther 1:1-3] at the beginning of the story (if he were a newborn when carried away). Moreover, Mordecai would have been a minimum of 125 at the close of the book when he became "prime minister" in the king's 12th year (Essther 10:3, cp. 3:7). Though this would be possible, it is somewhat unlikely as only one man's age has been reported in Scripture as being that great since the days of "the judges" (over 700 years!). Besides, as Esther is Mordecai's first cousin (Esther 2:7), she would tend to be too old to fit the context of the story.
The solution to the dilemma, accepted by nearly all, has been to impose an unnatural rendering of the Esther 2:5-6 passage compelling the verse to read as though it were Kish, Mordecai's great-grandfather, who was carried away in 597 BC with Jeconiah rather than Mordecai himself. Notwithstanding, this interpretation is neither true nor an accurate rendering of the Hebrew construction which affirms that it was Mordecai who was carried away with Jechoniah. Only by a tortured, forced grammatical construction could this sentence be applied to his great-grandfather Kish.
The entire matter is resolved by simply letting the Bible speak for itself. This excessive age problem is simply due to a failure to accept the obvious which is that the Ahasuerus of Esther is actually Darius Hystaspis and not Xerxes. When this is seen, the age of Mordecai will be significantly reduced to a more reasonable and believable value (as will Ezra's and Nehemiah's, see fn. 1, p.204). Moreover, it is the persistent insistence by most modern scholars that "Ahasuerus" is Xerxes that has caused the problem. 3
Footnote:
3. The Book of Esther says nothing about Xerxes' attempt to avenge his father's humiliating 490 BC trouncing by the Greeks at Marathon. After his defeat at Salamis (end of September) in 480 (his 6th year), Xerxes fled 400 miles in 45 days to the Hellespont (mid November) - still 1,300 miles from Shushan. Now Esther ws brought into the house of the women in the 6th year of Ahasuerus and into the king's house in his 7th (Est.2:16; cp. vv. 8&12). Were Ahaseurus Xerxes, the search for the "fair young virgins" would have begun in 480 (his 6th year, see Chart 5c) or 481 - the very years Xerxes was at war in Greece - yet Ahaseurus was at the palace in Shushan at the beginning of the search (Est.2:4-5)! Thus the events in Esther do not fit well with the historical facts regarding Xerxes.
The Chronology of the Old Testament, Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, 16th Edition, Copyright 1993-2004 by Floyd Nolen Jones Ministries, Inc., pg. 203.