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I don't see yet where any of this helps to indentify who Ahasuerus is.
My bad to all, been in a sorta funk lately. Not trying to quit CC, but just kinda trying to be chilling back some more from the internet. Lol I get your point on this. Was saving for that moreso the last two chapters of Book of Esther as they are somewhat more key in answering the Main Question of Who is Ahasuerus of Esther (Xerxes, Artaxerxes, or other Persian king?)
My bad I will try to finish off posting Esther for us to study. For now, perhaps some ponderings on the other two questions though can be discerned from the text. For instance obviously, what the Bible says about him and your all opinions on his morality scale, good, bad, or indifferent king. Also feel free to post any other sources yourself or just frankly your own thoughts. Or explore your own tangents between yourselves lol meant this as a discussion topic, not an interview on my personal beliefs. I'll just give you my opinion and also I plan on posting at least in full Book of Esther.
So sorry to not directly answer your question lady IS lol but if you read ahead perhaps you'll deduce my angle on it as I have stated I think evidence weighs strongly that this might very well be indeed Xerxes I, Slayer of Spartans. If not I'll tell you when we get there lol. Guess then with that said we move to chapter 7.
An interesting chapter to the point of the question whether Ahasuerus is a good guy or bad guy. Obviously kinda answers the second question just by posting the chapter and discussing. While indeed Haman is clearly treacherous and evil, king Ahasuerus does have the guy impaled or hung to death and the Bible says he determined evil and that he was wrathful. Yet at the same time Haman basically insulted the king by going into his Queen's bedroom in his own house to boot, and it is fairly kingly poetic justice for Haman to be hung on the gallows (or gibbet in some translations) which he intended for Mordecai and the people of Israel. Which perhaps somewhat absolves Ahasuerus' famous anger making the question of his morality remain open for the next chapter and the reader to decide on a whole.
Esther 7
1 So the king and Haman came to banquet with Esther the queen.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? and it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then Esther the queen answered and said, If I have found favour in thy sight, O king, and if it please the king, let my life be given me at my petition, and my people at my request:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we are sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be slain, and to perish. But if we had been sold for bondmen and bondwomen, I had held my tongue, although the enemy could not countervail the king's damage.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the king Ahasuerus answered and said unto Esther the queen, Who is he, and where is he, that durst presume in his heart to do so?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Esther said, The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman. Then Haman was afraid before the king and the queen.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the king arising from the banquet of wine in his wrath went into the palace garden: and Haman stood up to make request for his life to Esther the queen; for he saw that there was evil determined against him by the king.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the king returned out of the palace garden into the place of the banquet of wine; and Haman was fallen upon the bed whereon Esther was. Then said the king, Will he force the queen also before me in the house? As the word went out of king's mouth, they covered Haman's face.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Harbonah, one of the chamberlains, said before the king, Behold also, the gallows fifty cubits high, which Haman had made for Mordecai, who spoken good for the king, standeth in the house of Haman. Then the king said, Hang him thereon.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified.
Sorry to hear your in a bit of a funk. I think we all have it happen at one time or another. CC can be a bit consuming at times. When I was on The History Channel forums there were people that you wouldn't get a reply from for a week, most a day or two. If your where the weather is bad snow and what not, that can really affect one's attitude. Maybe we should set a rule on this thread that we will not reply for a day or two at least that way we won't be tied to the computer.
Would you be willing to agree that secular evidence can be used if the framework is based on Scripture?
I'm going to go back and read upto Chap.7 again.
Lol I have all ready said you may posit secular sources, though whether they be real evidence that for my own personal opinion and part I may contest and/or scrutinize lol, but by all means you may for the sake of your scrutiny of the topic also and the wider discussion post whatever pertaining to the three questions. I am familiar with a lot of the sources and/or theories/mythologies at least as they pertain to Xerxes if we be assuming he is indeed Ahasuerus. I am also familiar with possible, but not totally confirmed extra-biblical archaeological type proofs that may be indicator to either Ahasuerus identity, overall character, and may possibly be in correlation and alignment with an orthodox Biblical view. Mordecai is a big factor in this actually, especially in the closing chapters, and is a hint at my theory that Ahasuerus may indeed be Xerxes when compared to the Bible book of Esther alongside a possible secular proof.
Anyways indeed Book of Esther is a great book whatever the case may be, have read it many times. Just a good angle I suppose to freshen up some Bible Study and Discussion, so I suppose I'll post chapter 8 but by all means feel free to refer back to any of the chapters or scrutinize off on your own tangents.
I tell you GIS, I found your post to be insulting. The use of the word "tangent" as if what ever I say you will find to be irrelevent is unsettling. Your use of "lol" looks like it is directed at people as if what they say will not be sufficient. You need to do some soul searching tonight and make a decision to change the way you post.
I'm not trying to mean it as insulting. I see Tangents as like the side scripts, for instance the tangents I am mainly pursuing to the topic is to post Book of Esther and give my personal opinion and I am actually quite interested in your and other peoples' tangents and exploring them as it pertains to the topic. I suppose in text it is kinda hard to tell the tone. Lol means to laugh out loud, when I post lol it means genuinely I find things funny in a just kinda cute way. I have a strange humor I guess, not many on here seem to get it. Laugh with me lady IS don't be afraid I like you indeed.
Lol I laugh there in the beginning because I feel like it is rather you who are not understanding me as I have said now three times you may pursue the secular tangents, just I feel I have to remind that I am a person too and I also will assert my feelings and my views/tangents as people always seem to want to run me down and dismiss and ridicule me and wish all sorts of cruel and sometimes admittedly just so bizarre it's funny things upon me.
So I am mindful I have to assert my right to my opinion also and I will give it. Which is also part of what I am trying to convey in that post. This a discussion though, I do not disvalue you as a person at all but rather highly value all you CCers, which is why I have never and will never ask to ban any person here or to shut up any of them here. In fact it's why I make the topic to begin with rather than simply keeping it locked up in the cage of the skull. Obviously I am fine with you wanting to go down any tangents, I like you lady IS, if anything for your good taste in music, and see you as at least basely equal if not greater than me so you ought not feel ashamed to put forth your own thoughts and make your own arguments.
I sincerly apologize if that is what you meant.
You ain't gotta apologize lady IS, lol, not meaning to come on strong again or nothing. Just trying to like make plain so we can just continue. Lol I will be a lil foolish and boast myself I am incredibly well read myself, but indeed to debase meself in turn, perhaps admittedly not the best understood writer, kinda an awkward communicator.
OK, I've read up to chapter 8, what's next?
Well chapter 9 of course lol.
But that's what I mean by tangents, by all means, whatever tangents, your thoughts on chapter 8, the whole book, the topic of Ahasuerus character to the 3 main questions, or your personal thoughts in general, or your thoughts on other sources/tangents/theories in relation to Book of Esther, Ahasuerus, his character, what the Bible says, and whether hero, villain, or indifferent. And I guess also the implied unofficial rule of just misc. thoughts.
Good chapter for those tangents actually. Like coming back to origin of Purim as a holiday and ponderings with sir Buzzard which is somewhat reprised in Chapter 9 here, and lady Magenta's mention that indeed it is something of a known but sorta Bible trivia controversy fact Book of Esther does not explicitly feature direct mention of God within the book itself. Yet at same time I personally in my opinion I can believe it is canonical and it is a good story. Overall point of Book of Esther, and even canonical Bible is that God saved Mordecai, Esther, Ahasuerus, and the jews, and even in a way the Medo-Persian Empire from one those cliche infamous ancient insider coup and genocide plottings. Adds to interest of the story though is kinda dramatic no doubt, but at same time a point to it as a good Bible book for a BDF or so I thought lol. Bible only is not explicitly stated to some of these questions but is somewhat deduced, so, it's somewhat a fair game to ponder on and many good point can be made overall. Is an epic tale for sure though.
1. Who exactly is Ahasuerus in Book of Esther? (Xerxes, Artaxerxes, or other?)
2. What does the Bible say about Ahasuerus?
3. Is Ahasuerus a Hero, a Villain, or an Indifferent King?
Yes, I have heard this before and I agree to much of it, though I do believe Book of Esther is inspired and thus deserves to be canonical. We're not totally restricted to Book of Esther, but merely I'll use it as the primary intra-biblical source for information on Ahasuerus. One of the hard things about determining Ahasuerus' identity is other Persian kings in the Bible are also called Ahasuerus, as the name is something of a title also meaning king/prince/royalty. This is also the meaning of Xerxes' personal name, which then makes it additionally hard to figure out if the Ahasuerus of Esther is indeed Xerxes or merely one of the other Persian rulers simply given the same title, lol. A hint is given in the first verse of Esther 1, saying "this is the same Ahasuerus which reigned from India even unto Ethiopia, over an hundred and seven and twenty province." This hint sort narrows it down to Xerxes or Artaxerxes reigning at the height of the Medo-Persian Empire.
Many interesting facets to Ahasuerus personality also in chapter 1. I have heard that modern feminists look to Vashti as some sort of hero, and therefore they see Ahasuerus as a kinda macho bad guy. Though I would think quite the opposite, Ahasuerus was after all the king, so not only was Vashti defying her husband, but she was also defying the king. We can see from the response of the nobles in verses 15-22 that perhaps Ahasuerus' punishment of Vashti was moreso towards appeasing his own people rather than any personal malice.
I'm going to post chapter 2, but everyone should feel free to refer back to any of the chapters. Just merely trying to get the book of Esther posted early on for more ease to reference.
Ahasuerus was after all the king, so not only was Vashti defying her husband, but she was also defying the king. We can see from the response of the nobles in verses 15-22 that perhaps Ahasuerus' punishment of Vashti was moreso towards appeasing his own people rather than any personal malice.
It's pretty obvious that had Ahasuerus not been drunk as a skunk he would never have asked Vashti to do such a cheap and humiliating thing. It makes no sense that the council would suggest that such a private thing would turn into a public and national crisis.
Well I'd say firstly he was celebrating, sometimes people get drunk at celebrations. Even in the Bible, just look for instance at the Wedding in Cana, they were drinking and having a merry old time. So I don't think I can fault Ahasuerus for drinking his own wine in his own house at his own party. Funny enough in Chapter 1 Verse 8 describes the drinking as lawful, no man was compelled. Also interestingly, the text does not specify whether or not Ahasuerus himself was drunk, though I concede it's not unrealistic either.
I don't think it's all that humiliating for Ahasuerus to just want to show off his wife's beauty. Keep in mind the whole point of the party was he was showing off his kingly splendor, of which a king's beautiful queen is his crown jewel. If anything that just shows he held her in high esteem and that it was rather Vashti whom humiliated him.
Maybe she didn't want to be treated like a trophy wife, did you think of that?!
It actually makes a lot of sense for the nobles to have their council as the nobles feared that then all the women of the empire would become basically ancient feminists and treat their husbands defiantly when they learned of Vashti's example.
It's almost ludicrous that the king's honor was at stake when he had acted so irresponsibly, and that male supremacy was threatened when that institution was so strongly entrenched in Oriental life and could scarcely be affected by what Vashti did. It was a good cop out though, there was some hidden reason behind the council's decision to cause such a blow up, like I said to claim a private affair would result in a public and national crisis.
Then if you think of it in the overall destiny kinda spectrum, if he didn't get rid of Vashti he may never have married Esther and if he never married Esther it's quite possible the jews may have been genocided. Shoulda/woulda/coulda though is kinda weak arguing.
A sorta interesting tangent related to this is the comparison of Esther to Vashti as examples of femininity vs feminism. I think Esther by her personality is by leaps and bounds a more desirable woman to have for a wife, but that's just from a biased single male perspective lol.
Get real GIS, all he was looking for was a "fair young virgin" he didn't have clue as the Esther's personality. I seriously doubt any of the women that were paraded before him jumped up clicked their heels and shook thier booty at him!
Vashti has that feminist personality that to the world seems bold and cool and all that, but it's that feminist defiance that makes such women not good wives for most Christian men. Now some guys in this day and age can bear with a Vashti, but remember Ahasuerus, no matter what his morality, was not like a deadbeat dad, I mean this is a guy that had the job of managing one of the biggest empires in all of history. Now I know in the modern sense they might see Esther as like a docile housewife with controlling husband.
Yet if you think about it Esther is actually much braver than Vashti,
Really? Vashti stood up to the king of Persia.
Esther after all jeopardies her life
And Vashti didn't?
to appear before the king when she is not called, which is a capital offense, and she saved an entire race of people and indirectly may have even saved Ahasuerus, or at the least of it his regime from an insider coup plot.
It is interesting stuff though. Interesting tangent for sure. Very interesting one too for the modern era, and indeed we are not the first people to have brought this up, but its been argued at least nearly a century before us. In a ways it kinda feeds into the question of Ahasuerus' morality, so it is indeed an interesting facet of the story for the fair ponderings.
Gotta go and make some shrimp gumbo. Talk later. Did I mention I read chapter 10?