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sparkman
Guest
Do you have a non-Morrell source for this? You can't trust Morrell to honestly quote resources.
By the way, he has used spurious letters by the church fathers to make points in the past, including the Long Letter of Clementine, which was obviously altered by heretics to support their theology. Whether he quoted these things in honest error or intentionally, I don't know.
I read the bible several times.
Then I read Institutes of the Christian Religion.
I found it to completely line up with scriptures. I found no problems with it.
I tried to read Arminius but he was so long winded I had a hard time figuring out what his point was. I got quickly bored after about a week and quit reading. His book was probably twice as long as Calvins and Calvins was pretty long too. Over 1000 pages.
No I don't. I trust what he quoted from the church fathers themselves, and they clearly had a pro-free will stance, but like I said earlier, I think he misrepresents the degree to which they did believe in free will. He makes it look like they thought all men have the natural ability to obey GOD, which I don't believe they believed at all.
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Depleted
Guest
If anyone is truly interested in what Calvinist believe, I recommend James Boices' Foundations of the Christian Faith. Don't worry. Not freaky. I suspect it's the same foundations of your Christian faith too. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I believe Calvinists and Wesleyians are both saved. But, I do know many don't understand us Calvinist very well, so it's a good book to learn more about God, even if you never become reformed, and to learn that we're solid in the Lord too, even if we don't agree on some stuff.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I do not take too much stock in what people say,for the truth is they cannot know anything more than I can know,for the Spirit will show all the same truth,and the same amount of it.
It appears you will have a better understanding of the Bible,if you read it by the Spirit,than listening to bunch of people say this,and that,conflicting with each other,and the scriptures are clear to understand.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul.
I am of this person's teachings,and I am of that person's teachings,and so forth.
Not to take away anything from the preacher,because he is necessary,and important,but it will cut down on a lack of understanding of the Bible,and certain subjects,if you read it by the Spirit,than to listen to a bunch of people saying this or that,with people going by their denomination,or group,and taking it as truth,to where red flags do not pop up when they should,telling them something is wrong.
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
We should be on the look out for red flags,something that contradicts what we believe,so we can correct it if we are wrong,and get to the truth of the Bible.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I do not take too much stock in what people say,for the truth is they cannot know anything more than I can know,for the Spirit will show all the same truth,and the same amount of it.
It appears you will have a better understanding of the Bible,if you read it by the Spirit,than listening to bunch of people say this,and that,conflicting with each other,and the scriptures are clear to understand.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul.
I am of this person's teachings,and I am of that person's teachings,and so forth.
Not to take away anything from the preacher,because he is necessary,and important,but it will cut down on a lack of understanding of the Bible,and certain subjects,if you read it by the Spirit,than to listen to a bunch of people saying this or that,with people going by their denomination,or group,and taking it as truth,to where red flags do not pop up when they should,telling them something is wrong.
Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
We should be on the look out for red flags,something that contradicts what we believe,so we can correct it if we are wrong,and get to the truth of the Bible.
There is a bunch of different flavors of Calvinists. Some are five pointers and some are seven pointers and some are hard shell there is even a group with the dreaded hyper word in their title.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm pretty conversant on both views having been in both types of Churches and have read their Confessions etc. But what I haven't found is a decent video-debate between the two camps. Any leads?...and I don't mean where one side slaughters the other like it was in a book-debate between White and Hunt.
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sparkman
Guest
I don't think Calvinism has much of an association whatsoever with Gnosticism. Morrell tries to insinuate that because he is a sinless perfectionist. He tries to create a straw man that Calvinists believe in sinning as a lifestyle, which is totally false. He does that so he can use I John in an attempt to justify his sinless perfectionist position, so he insinuates Calvinists are Gnostics because they challenge him on his view of I John.
I was in a facebook group with Morrell as the group owner. The group was titled something like Calvinism, Arminianism, Finneyism, Pelagianism. He tried to play Calvinists against Arminians and then tried to gravitate Arminians toward his Moral Government Theory/Pelagianism.
One guy made some really odd remarks so I started investigating the main participants. Turned out he was one of those nasty street and campus preacher guys. Morrell did a documentary on him where he's lauded as a great evangelist of college students. I watched videos about the guy and he's one of the most nasty, disgusting people I've ever seen..unbelievers are more righteous than him. His name is Clarence "Bro" Cope.
See one of his videos here..note the time stamps that I put in the comments of disgusting remarks he made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7Is_6uSSf0
The unbelieving atheist guy had to tell him to watch his language because teenagers on campus were listening to his foul language..it was that bad.
These guys claim that they are sinless..what a laugh.
The fact that Morrell would endorse someone like Clarence Cope and produce a documentary about him lauding him as an open air preacher shows he has zero discernment.
So..I think you want to be examining your sources of information
By the way the open air preacher guys on the group accused me of having sexual sin issues because I commented on how they were using foul sexual references when talking to college students, and how it was unholy. I told them that they themselves had sexual sin issues or they wouldn't be using language like that, speaking in an immodest way about young people. I was thrown off the group by Morrell for bringing that up. Not that I cared..it was a waste of time to address their behavior scripturally because they simply justified it.
Listen to the 4 associated videos and see all the nasty comments he makes to them. The other Pelagian/Finneyists that Morrell hangs out with are disgusting too. I have never seen a Calvinist behave like this..they know the Bible too well to be doing that.
Kerrigan Skelly, Jed Smock, Micah Armstrong, Ruben Israel, and Dean Saxton are all associated with Morrell and he's done documentaries on most of them. They play themselves as big evangelistic heroes but their behavior is actually anti-gospel. They fool some Arminians into accepting their drivel through playing them against Calvinists.
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sparkman
Guest
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None of this affects what the pre-Augustinian church fathers said about free-will, or the fact that the gnostics believed in total depravity. I would be glad to discuss the gnostic/Calvinism connection within the context of what the church fathers wrote. I sensed a connection between Calvinism and gnosticism before I ever heard of Morrell. His documentation just confirmed it for me.
None of this affects what the pre-Augustinian church fathers said about free-will, or the fact that the gnostics believed in total depravity. I would be glad to discuss the gnostic/Calvinism connection within the context of what the church fathers wrote. I sensed a connection between Calvinism and gnosticism before I ever heard of Morrell. His documentation just confirmed it for me.
I don't think Calvinism has much of an association whatsoever with Gnosticism. Morrell tries to insinuate that because he is a sinless perfectionist. He tries to create a straw man that Calvinists believe in sinning as a lifestyle, which is totally false. He does that so he can use I John in an attempt to justify his sinless perfectionist position, so he insinuates Calvinists are Gnostics because they challenge him on his view of I John.
I was in a facebook group with Morrell as the group owner. The group was titled something like Calvinism, Arminianism, Finneyism, Pelagianism. He tried to play Calvinists against Arminians and then tried to gravitate Arminians toward his Moral Government Theory/Pelagianism.
One guy made some really odd remarks so I started investigating the main participants. Turned out he was one of those nasty street and campus preacher guys. Morrell did a documentary on him where he's lauded as a great evangelist of college students. I watched videos about the guy and he's one of the most nasty, disgusting people I've ever seen..unbelievers are more righteous than him. His name is Clarence "Bro" Cope.
See one of his videos here..note the time stamps that I put in the comments of disgusting remarks he made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7Is_6uSSf0
The unbelieving atheist guy had to tell him to watch his language because teenagers on campus were listening to his foul language..it was that bad.
These guys claim that they are sinless..what a laugh.
The fact that Morrell would endorse someone like Clarence Cope and produce a documentary about him lauding him as an open air preacher shows he has zero discernment.
So..I think you want to be examining your sources of information
By the way the open air preacher guys on the group accused me of having sexual sin issues because I commented on how they were using foul sexual references when talking to college students, and how it was unholy. I told them that they themselves had sexual sin issues or they wouldn't be using language like that, speaking in an immodest way about young people. I was thrown off the group by Morrell for bringing that up. Not that I cared..it was a waste of time to address their behavior scripturally because they simply justified it.
Listen to the 4 associated videos and see all the nasty comments he makes to them. The other Pelagian/Finneyists that Morrell hangs out with are disgusting too. I have never seen a Calvinist behave like this..they know the Bible too well to be doing that.
Kerrigan Skelly, Jed Smock, Micah Armstrong, Ruben Israel, and Dean Saxton are all associated with Morrell and he's done documentaries on most of them. They play themselves as big evangelistic heroes but their behavior is actually anti-gospel. They fool some Arminians into accepting their drivel through playing them against Calvinists.
None of the passages that mention predestination or elect have to do with eternal salvation. The elect is Jesus Christ. Once I'm in the elect, I am predestinated to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, the adoption. I'm in Christ now, but my destination is set. It's in the future.
Predestination is a beautiful Church doctrine if you understand it.
Predestination is a beautiful Church doctrine if you understand it.
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DaTK
Guest
The Word is the trunk of the tree. Theology is the branches. Our theology always changes when it comes up against the pure word. but not for the bad. theologies using scripture to interpret scripture. Reformed/calvinistst say that we are ALWAYS reforming/ALWAYS changing and should be going into the knowledge of our God Lord and savior. There are Reformed Baptists. There are Calvinistic Baptist. In fact the Puritans in the 1700's were reformed but also considered baptists by some. We have free choice, in the sense that we are responsible to be grounded, stable christians. We are to know God's word all of if it that were possible. But we also know that God is in control. Both things are true. God is Good but he's also fair. God is loving but he's also stern. I feel led to write more about this but i don't know if I can in one setting. I will gladly continue this thread as a daily conversation. Lord I pray you heal us and minister to us through this thread. Let it be a daily conversation since we are all learning. Love you. in Jesus name Amen
I feel led to write more about this but i don't know if I can in one setting. I will gladly continue this thread as a daily conversation. Lord I pray you heal us and minister to us through this thread. Let it be a daily conversation since we are all learning. Love you. in Jesus name Amen
Here are a couple videos. They'll take some time to watch!
James White(Calvinist) vs Michael Brown(Arminianist):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEU2IuC1d24
James White(Calvinist) vs Robert Sungenis(Roman Catholic) on Predestination vs Free Will:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNuChQUsIMU
James White(Calvinist) vs Michael Brown(Arminianist):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEU2IuC1d24
James White(Calvinist) vs Robert Sungenis(Roman Catholic) on Predestination vs Free Will:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNuChQUsIMU
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sparkman
Guest
I don't think you've connected Gnosticism at all with Calvinism. If you can list the points of connection, I'd appreciate seeing them.
To be honest, I'm not even sure Morrell is saved. Pelagian-Finneyism is an abomination. They deny original sin, imputed righteousness, justification by faith alone, and penal substitutionary atonement. So, his words mean nothing to me. Both Calvinists and Arminians, if they were properly instructed, should be able to see that he is a wolf.
Watching the videos of the guys he hangs with is enough to make me sick, and he did documentaries on these guys lauding them as great evangelists. I posted links to Clarence Cope's videos. He also did a documentary on Ruben Israel, who walked around with a severed pig's head on a pole at an Arab festival yelling out that they were going to hell. Little Arabic kids were screaming with horror at the sight, and some of them, perhaps a third, were Christians!!!
In addition, he supports Jed Smock, who claims he is sinless, and Micah Armstrong, who is also a sinless perfectionist.
You can tell a lot about a person by their discernment and he has zero discernment.
By the way, he claims that Christ did NOT die as a propitiation for our sins, and that is blasphemous.
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sparkman
Guest
This is a Pelagian website by Mike DeSario. I believe skinski7, a Pelagian member here, refers people to it sometimes.
Notice that he calls just about every Reformed person a false teacher:
False Teachers of the Past and P
Wolves like to call other people wolves. It's part of their gameplan.
He even calls Martin Luther a false teacher. I don't think the vast majority of Protestants would agree
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Wow...I just checked the web link you gave....you are right....everyone is a wolf and false teacher to this guy....so to him a wolf and false teacher is whoever doesn't agree with his doctrine?..is that fair to say?
This is a Pelagian website by Mike DeSario. I believe skinski7, a Pelagian member here, refers people to it sometimes.
Notice that he calls just about every Reformed person a false teacher:
False Teachers of the Past and P
Wolves like to call other people wolves. It's part of their gameplan.
He even calls Martin Luther a false teacher. I don't think the vast majority of Protestants would agree
This is a Pelagian website by Mike DeSario. I believe skinski7, a Pelagian member here, refers people to it sometimes.
Notice that he calls just about every Reformed person a false teacher:
False Teachers of the Past and P
Wolves like to call other people wolves. It's part of their gameplan.
He even calls Martin Luther a false teacher. I don't think the vast majority of Protestants would agree
DeSario doesn't understand the covenant or grace.