Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[John146]

Joshua 24:15King James Version (KJV)

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

The Holy Spirit giving us these words through Joshua asked the Israelites to exercise their free will and decide which God they will serve. Joshua chooses the one true God. Does God give us the freedom of to choose? If He determines, then it's not choice.

rubbish. you have never even clearly thought abut it. 'free will' is never mentioned in the Bible. If it exists it is NEVER independent of good or bad, Most people never act other than their upbringing, environment and personal preferences. Do you call that free will? When is FREE will exercised? When the Holy Spirit drives men to obey God. But that is not free will either,




Since when has that been FREE will.



LOL since when has the power of the Holy Spirit been freewill>? you are muddled in your thinking,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So did the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 10:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Is the Lord Jesus a gnostic because He taught OSAS?

Is the Lord Jesus wrong for teaching this, as Kenneth says, because its against the 'Word of God'?


No and No. These are just labels from people with no understanding. It doesn't seem too difficult to understand what Eternal is or the word Never or how about 'no man is able'. Can't quite grasp it.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Ephesians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Workers and legalists can't believe in OSAS. That would cause all their work to be of no consequence. It would cause their 'understanding' to crumble. There has to be some consequence for not doing all the works that legalists require. Right?

That's why the religious jews crucified and rejected Christ, instead of saving them from the romans, he told them their works would not be good enough to save them, they needed him to save their eternal souls.. They hated thet, Because no one likes to be told you did all that hard work for nothing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What, exactly, is the Lord Jesus Christ saying in John 10:28-29????

What does eternal mean?

What does 'no man is able' mean?

What does never mean?

To the religious, it means nothing. It means as long as I do this.. and I do that. Otherwise, those words are meaningless.

When God says forever, To Israel, and then to the individual believer, He never meant it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said, I'm not going to play this game with you. You either learn to discuss things like a normal person, or get used to having your comments rebuffed by me.

so it is ok for you to tell everyone they are gnostic. or learned from the gnostics. and that's it..

But not alright for people to question you.

You keep digging yourself a hole man..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fancy that. So did the gnostics.

I rest my case! (rolls eyes)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

rubbish. you have never even clearly thought abut it. 'free will' is never mentioned in the Bible. If it exists it is NEVER independent of good or bad, Most people never act other than their upbringing, environment and personal preferences. Do you call that free will? When is FREE will exercised? When the Holy Spirit drives men to obey God. But that is not free will either,
Since when has that been FREE will.
LOL since when has the power of the Holy Spirit been freewill>? you are muddled in your thinking,

Free will is clearly witnessed of in the bible.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19​

 

[John146]

[h=1]1 Timothy 2:3-4"[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."[/FONT][/h]Is it God's will that all men be saved? Has any resisted God's will? Are all men saved?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

rubbish you don't even know the difference between gnostic teaching and the Calvinistic view of total depravity, But then you have probably read neither.

coming from someone who has never read him that's funny

What's funny is those who are so ardent to defend Calvin, don't know his writings either. If they did they would quote what he wrote to prove me wrong. I'm able to form a reasonable opinion about what he believed from reading the writings of those who claim to follow his theology. For example, this self-contradictory statement that conflates free will and ability. This is gnosticism, pure and simple.

"Those are things we do because of God’s hand on us and because of His enabling power. This is because we can’t carry these things out freely – we’re too corrupt."​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

His will is constrained by his nature. Since his nature is corrupt, his actions reflect the corruption. Same with believers. Their will is constrained by their nature. Since their nature is regenerate, their actions reflect the regenerate heart.

Argue with that; argue with the Bible. Scripture clearly teaches that the unsaved are slaves to sin, and that the righteous do good because of the regenerate nature. A good tree bears good fruit; a bad tree bears bad fruit.

If your will is still constrained by your old nature, then you are a slave of sin.

 

[John146]

Now we all know that if you choose life, God made you choose, therefore it was not really a choice. God just wanted you to think you are making the choice. Confused yet?

Free will is clearly witnessed of in the bible.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is a Pelagian view. Autonomous free will basically makes man sovereign.
Mankind does not have autonomous free will. His free will is subject to God's sovereign will.
Do you seriously think that your will trumps God's will?
Mankind is like a fish swimming in a pond. It can freely swim within the pond, but it can't decide to jump out of the pond and live on land. Our free will is subject to parameters that God assigns.
Pelagians and Arminians make a big deal out of autonomous free will but there's no such thing.
This is why I consider extreme Arminians and Pelagians to be idolaters. They reject God's sovereignty and make themselves the center of their universe. It's nothing but idolatry.

You're conflating free will with ability. That is the effect of Calvignosticism on the body of Christ.

Man absolutely has free will. GOD has given every man the will to choose what he wants to do. Ability to do that will is an entirely different matter.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now we all know that if you choose life, God made you choose, therefore it was not really a choice. God just wanted you to think you are making the choice. Confused yet?

Such is the effect of Calvignosticism on the Christian mind.

 

[sparkman]

Please provide Scriptural evidence that predestination or election has anything to do with the salvation of the soul.

The golden chain of redemption is one easy evidence of this:

Romans 8:[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[SUP][a][/SUP] for those who are called according to his purpose. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Even Arminians acknowledge predestination to salvation. The only difference between the two groups is the BASIS for predestination.

With Arminians, they believe that "foreknowledge" is based on God knowing the redeemed person's choice. With Calvinists, they believe that "foreknowledge" means "fore-loving"..meaning that God loves that individual with a distinguishing love since eternity past.

Distinguishing love means that God loves them in a different sense than he loves the rest of mankind, analogous to how a man loves his wife different than he loves any other women.

Note that in either case, God has exhaustive foreknowledge, which is in line with Isaiah 46:10.

Isaiah 46:10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Also, note that in each case, there are the redeemed and there are those who are without hope. No one will end up in the Lamb's book of life that God doesn't know about now, and no one will fail to be included in the Lamb's book of life that God knows will be saved. God's knowledge of the future is not imperfect.

So, by virtue of accepting God's exhaustive foreknowledge, or knowledge of the future, we have one set of individuals who will be redeemed, and one set of individuals who will not be redeemed, and God knows exactly who they are. He won't be surprised whatsoever.

The only way you can get out of this is claiming that God's knowledge of the future is limited, and that is exactly what open theists do. They propose an anthropomorphic, limited God in order to evade predestination. Open theism is widely considered heretical. It is definitely unscriptural.

So, Calvinists and Arminians can argue all they want, but unless you want to move to a anthropomorphic, man-centered view of God, there are a group of individuals who will be saved and a group of individuals who will be lost, and God knows who they are. That proposes that the second group is hopeless, and the first group is 100% assured of salvation.

The big question that poses for Arminians is why God would bother to save someone if they are going to be ultimately lost. That doesn't make sense logically, nor does it make sense Scripturally.

I'm attaching a document on assurance of salvation to show why it doesn't make sense scripturally.

 

[John146]

Salvation is never the issue at hand concerning what we're predestined to. Paul is speaking to saved believers in Romans 8 teaching them that their destination is set in Christ. The believers destination is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Our destination is set now that we are in Christ. That destination is the adoption which is the redemption of our body.

Isaiah 46:10 tells us that God has determined the end result even from the beginning. What does that mean? That doesn't mean that everything in between does it? The end has been determined. If we want to be part of God's end result, we better get into Christ through the gospel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul wrote of those who believe that they are bound by their sin nature and have no ability to overcome sin and do righteousness.

...maintaining a form of godliness, but denying its ability. Avoid these [people]. 2 Timothy 3:5​

 

[John146]

If God gave us the freedom to choose, that would not mean we would surprise God by our choice. Did the people of Nineveh surprise God as they repented of their evil? Of course not. The question is, Did God know ahead of time they would repent and He would spare them?

 

[sparkman]

According to Calvin, the saved where chosen before the foundation of the world. Wouldn't this mean that God's wrath was never against you to begin with?

Scripture says that those who are redeemed are in the Lamb's book of life, which was written from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Again, you'd have to propose that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge to claim that such a book does not exist.

God obviously knows who will be saved and who will not, just by virtue of having exhaustive foreknowledge (Isaiah 46:10). Open theists claim he does not have exhaustive foreknowledge just to get out of this conundrum but they cannot

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

If this book has been written since the foundation of the world, God knows who will be redeemed and who will not, which is perfectly in line with his exhaustive foreknowledge. So there is a group of hopeless people, and a group of people who will be redeemed.

All one has to do is accept God's exhaustive foreknowledge, and that proves election.

By the way, one has to read the Bible with their hands over their eyes in order to avoid the 60 references to being chosen, elected, and predestined to salvation...and these references are not corporate. They also have to be blind not to see the principle of election in the Old Testament. The most noteable relates to the Flood. Only eight people were "elected" to be saved through the Flood. God selecting the nation of Israel is another example of election, along with the election of the specific individuals which lead up to their election as a nation.

 

[John146]

[h=1]Revelation 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/h]Does God have a book he has kept, from the foundation of the world, that has every name that has worshiped Him in truth? Yes, since Adam, if a man was found to worship God in truth, that man's name was added to the book.

Every reference of being chosen, elected, or predestined, none of them are concerning salvation. NONE!

 

[John146]

Did John Calvin believe in infant baptism for the regeneration of the soul? Yes! Look it up. If that's true, the Bible says John Calvin is accursed from Christ and we should have nothing to do with him.

 

[sparkman]

One person in the Bible Discussion room asked me the question..why would you want to believe that Calvinism is true?

I didn't say it at the time, but my response should have been, why do you believe in eternal torment?

The answer is simple. It's irrelevant what I want, but it is what the Bible teaches. He believes the Bible teaches eternal torment, but somehow he finds Calvinism to be "unfair" by human standards.

I am all about sola Scriptura. I cannot deny the almost 60 references that talk about election, predestination, and being chosen. I was able to understand what these references meant even before I heard the world Calvinism.

I can also see that Arminians have an entitlement mentality concerning salvation that turns salvation into something that isn't about grace, but it's about entitlement. It is very much a man-centered view of salvation, rather than a God-centered view of salvation.

Somehow, they fool themselves into think there is an equal playing ground with regards to salvation. It doesn't take much to disprove that. Notice how few people are saved in Muslim countries. We have much more information about Christianity, and the freedom to observe our beliefs, in the Western European countries, Australia and the United States. We have advantages that Muslims do not have. When they come to faith, they are much more liable to be killed. As a result, we don't see as many Muslims coming to faith. Do I accuse God of unfairness related to this? Or, do I just cover my eyes and pretend like these factors don't exist?

Actually, God has elected some Muslims to salvation, so despite their circumstances, they can come to faith. This is where election has an edge on the other view. God ensures that some out of these countries will be saved despite their circumstances. They are not left to blind chance like Arminians seem to imply.

Some of you will claim that all mankind has an opportunity for salvation due to Romans 1 and 2. I would note that general revelation is enough to convince mankind of God's existence, and it is good enough to convict them of sin, but it is not good enough to bring them to faith. Scripture says that there is no name other that Jesus Christ by which a person can be saved.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

So, I view election as being MORE FAIR than the alternative. God makes sure that some are saved everywhere, through whatever means that he needs to bring them to salvation. I saw that with one of my Muslim friends, who was brought to faith due to a vision while in New Zealand for language training to become a Jihadi.

By the way, I don't think unconverted Muslims are any more wicked, on average, than unconverted Americans. In fact, some of them are much more moral. So, it is not a matter of wickedness, but it is a matter of their upbringing and location, which are hindrances to the gospel message. But, they still come to faith because God elects them...if it were left up to mere blind chance fewer would be saved.

In short, while I see a lot of accusations about Calvinism being "unfair", I would counter by saying 1) we are not God's judge and don't determine what is "fair" and what is not fair 2) fairness is that we all receive eternal punishment but by God's mercy he saves some 3) election works to the advantage of some people in severely persecuted countries; God saves some out of all people groups despite any obstacles, through His Sovereign grace and 4) none would be saved if left up to our own devices.