Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

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ForthAngel

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Aug 31, 2012
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All one has to do is accept God's exhaustive foreknowledge, and that proves election.
This is what it all boils down to. Even if someone rejects the idea of election and predestination, they have to default to God created everything with exhaustive foreknowledge, which is by definition still predestination.... The only way around this is to deny that God is omniscient, which leads to God not being omnipotent, which leads to God being a liar, which leads to God maybe not being victorious in the end. It's a dangerous conclusion.
 

John146

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Jesus Christ is God's elect? What was Jesus elected for? Salvation? Or to be the means of salvation so all that call upon Him shall be saved, part of the elect of God?
 

John146

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Did God know ahead of time that the people of Nineveh would repent of their evil? Let Scripture define who God is and not man. We often like to define God on our terms and then make God fit our definitions.


This is what it all boils down to. Even if someone rejects the idea of election and predestination, they have to default to God created everything with exhaustive foreknowledge, which is by definition still predestination.... The only way around this is to deny that God is omniscient, which leads to God not being omnipotent, which leads to God being a liar, which leads to God maybe not being victorious in the end. It's a dangerous conclusion.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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Curious what everyone thinks of this chapter of Isaiah

God's sovereign will vs man's depraved will.

Isaiah 10
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]for he says:
“Are not my commanders all kings?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]shall I not do to Jerusalem and her idols
as I have done to Samaria and her images?”

And THEN, God turns around and judges the king for his actions.



[SUP]12 [/SUP]When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he[SUP][a][/SUP] will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For he says:

“By the strength of my hand I have done it,
and by my wisdom, for I have understanding;
I remove the boundaries of peoples,
and plunder their treasures;
like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]My hand has found like a nest
the wealth of the peoples;
and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken,
so I have gathered all the earth;
and there was none that moved a wing
or opened the mouth or chirped.”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it,
or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?
As if a rod should wield him who lifts it,
or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord God of hosts
will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors,
and under his glory a burning will be kindled,
like the burning of fire.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]The light of Israel will become a fire,
and his Holy One a flame,
and it will burn and devour
his thorns and briers in one day.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land
the Lord will destroy, both soul and body,
and it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The remnant of the trees of his forest will be so few
that a child can write them down.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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All that the Father
gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Did God know ahead of time that the people of Nineveh would repent of their evil? Let Scripture define who God is and not man. We often like to define God on our terms and then make God fit our definitions.
of course He knew, why did he send Jonah to Nineveh?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Joshua 24:15King James Version (KJV)

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

The Holy Spirit giving us these words through Joshua asked the Israelites to exercise their free will and decide which God they will serve. Joshua chooses the one true God. Does God give us the freedom of to choose? If He determines, then it's not choice.
so you think Israel were exercising their free will. show me were it says so. Joshua certainly was not. He was the chosen of YHWH. So God determined Joshua. As for the remainder the choice would be on the basis of their environment, their upbringing, and so on. That is not free will. that is equally fore-choosing. Free will is a myth invented by men.
 

John146

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Jonah was sent to preach the message of destruction in 40 days. God said He was going to destroy Nineveh in 40 days. Did God destroy Nineveh? Did God lie? Did not God have every intention of destroying Nineveh because their wickedness had come up before Him?

of course He knew, why did he send Jonah to Nineveh?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Free will is clearly witnessed of in the bible.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19
LOL, i do not see free will mentioned. It is not a Biblical concept. They 'chose'. That means they followed their environment, their upbringing, their personalities, and so on. Only those to Whom God gave His effectual call would seek Him. You are assuming what you are supposed to PROVE.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Hasn't everyone been given a measure of light to choose Him? Was it God's will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

LOL, i do not see free will mentioned. It is not a Biblical concept. They 'chose'. That means they followed their environment, their upbringing, their personalities, and so on. Only those to Whom God gave His effectual call would seek Him. You are assuming what you are supposed to PROVE.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Jonah was sent to preach the message of destruction in 40 days. God said He was going to destroy Nineveh in 40 days. Did God destroy Nineveh? Did God lie? Did not God have every intention of destroying Nineveh because their wickedness had come up before Him?

why send Jonah unless He knew they would hear. Why not raise a prophet among them? The destruction of Nineveh was Gods purpose if they did not repent. It is called an anthropomorphism. He knew what was going to happen. God did not intend to destroy Nineveh then in the last analysis
 
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No matter which way one looks at this the result is the same.One in Christ.I am just so thankful that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior to the glory of God our Holy Father :)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Hasn't everyone been given a measure of light to choose Him? Was it God's will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
no they haven't and no it wasn't, otherwise all men WOULD be saved. It was His will that 'all men', rulers and rich me and poor men wold be inciuded, Try reading it in context.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Deny, deny, deny...the message to Nineveh was, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." In 1:2, God says cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before me. God had every intention of destroying Nineveh. Nineveh repented, in turn, God repented of their destruction.

why send Jonah unless He knew they would hear. Why not raise a prophet among them? The destruction of Nineveh was Gods purpose if they did not repent. It is called an anthropomorphism. He knew what was going to happen. God did not intend to destroy Nineveh then in the last analysis
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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So it is God's will that all kings and rulers and poor men be saved? Have all kings received salvation?

John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.



no they haven't and no it wasn't, otherwise all men WOULD be saved. It was His will that 'all men', rulers and rich me and poor men wold be inciuded, Try reading it in context.
 
D

DaTK

Guest
A lot of people don't like the idea of hell likewise.. That's why Jesus said yes indeed FEAR the Lord who has the power to send one to hell , Matthew. Fear him. He is soveirgn that's what makes him God. But my his mercy and goodness he has offered eternal life to us and promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us. Not one if his sheep would be lost the 1 in 99. Both are derived from scripture. Both are true. The flesh wants to be in control and understand everything and the bible rubs up against that
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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A lot of people don't like the idea of hell likewise.. That's why Jesus said yes indeed FEAR the Lord who has the power to send one to hell , Matthew. Fear him. He is soveirgn that's what makes him God. But my his mercy and goodness he has offered eternal life to us and promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us. Not one if his sheep would be lost the 1 in 99. Both are derived from scripture. Both are true. The flesh wants to be in control and understand everything and the bible rubs up against that
What you are saying is basically what Jesus says... the 'sheep' the Father 'gives' me will come to me. I agree by his mercy and grace the gospel call goes out to all...and when those who have ears to hear, or when the sheep hear the voice of the shephard they 'will' come. Our Father in heaven is merciful, it truly is amazing.

All scripture is truth. We can only understand what God reveals. An example of what I think you are trying to say is in Isaiah 10. (we all have to deal with that tension).
 
K

KennethC

Guest
People who believe free will is not taught in the bible need to answer one simple question:


Do you still sin and why if there is no free will ???


Also the other thing people need to realize is "God is Love"........If you are forced or made to do something without given the choice that is not love !!!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Does God's will always happen? Is sin part of God's will for a believer's life?

no they haven't and no it wasn't, otherwise all men WOULD be saved. It was His will that 'all men', rulers and rich me and poor men wold be inciuded, Try reading it in context.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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People who believe free will is not taught in the bible need to answer one simple question:


Do you still sin and why if there is no free will ???


Also the other thing people need to realize is "God is Love"........If you are forced or made to do something without given the choice that is not love !!!
No one is really denying a human will. That would be an extreme form of Calvinism that I don't think anyone here promotes. The human will from birth is to sin. All of our choices are based on that nature. No one is good but God. humans are not good, nor can they choose to do good apart from God. Even their good works are usually for some sort of vain glory or selfish reason. Can God move someone to do good while they are unsaved? Probably yes. I think the world would be in a much worse state than it is without God providentially intervening.

Can God force or cause someone to do something? Sure. Look at the Assyrian King in Isaiah 10. Look at Jonah. Look at Pharaoh. Look at the Jews who Jesus hid the truth from.

This doesn't mean that we are mindless robots. We have a will and that will from birth is to sin and please ourselves. God saves us supernaturally because to turn to God is to abandon our nature - something we could never do on our own. He saves us and we do nothing to deserve or earn that, nor can we.

---
Edit:

To answer your question, we still contend with the flesh after salvation. We will still sin. The law of sin and death is still present in our flesh, but with our spirit we serve God.