Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes I know and satan is a clear example that nature does not dictate actions, if that were so then satan could have never rebelled and would still to this day be a serving cherub angel to God !!!

Well these things we do know.

The gnostics believed that sin resulted from a total depravity/inability of man's nature, and all of the pre-Augustine church fathers believed that sin resulted from acts of man's will (while acknowledging that man's depraved nature could influence their choices).

The 'former' gnostic Augustine formulated the theology that sin resulted from an almost totally depraved nature, which theology Calvin expanded into a more severe form (total depravity/inability)

 

[John146]

Why do you think believing is a good act? One can believe Satan is God, is that good? Believing the gospel is in itself, admitting that I'm not good, therefore, I believe on the one that is? How would that be boasting? "I'm no good. I need the Savior." That's not boasting, that's being honest.

You have all the free will you need to commit any sin you can dream up.

You don't have any free will to do anything Good. Everything Good comes from God. Anything Good you do is because you submitted your will to His.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You have all the free will you need to commit any sin you can dream up.

You don't have any free will to do anything Good. Everything Good comes from God. Anything Good you do is because you submitted your will to His.

You're conflating free will and ability. I also have the free will to do any good I want, because GOD gives me that ability through his spirit.

 

[Grandpa]

You're conflating free will and ability. I also have the free will to do any good I want, because GOD gives me that ability through his spirit.

Nope. Not conflating. Showing.

You, personally, through your free will have the ability to commit sin.

You, personally, through your free will have no ability to do good.


You think it is your free will that is able to do good, but you are completely wrong.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


You've got the ability to resist your free will. But that doesn't give you the ability to use that free will for good.

Your free will is at least partially spotted by depravity. Because you aren't perfected yet. Since that is the case then your free will, even though it is better than it once was and desires to do good, isn't able to do good as God is able to do Good.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by GrandpaYou have all the free will you need to commit any sin you can dream up.

You don't have any free will to do anything Good. Everything Good comes from God. Anything Good you do is because you submitted your will to His.

Why do you think believing is a good act? One can believe Satan is God, is that good? Believing the gospel is in itself, admitting that I'm not good, therefore, I believe on the one that is? How would that be boasting? "I'm no good. I need the Savior." That's not boasting, that's being honest.

I don't understand your response in the slightest.

Maybe you responded to something else???

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Nope. Not conflating. Showing.
You, personally, through your free will have the ability to commit sin.
You, personally, through your free will have no ability to do good.
You think it is your free will that is able to do good, but you are completely wrong.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


You've got the ability to resist your free will. But that doesn't give you the ability to use that free will for good.

Your free will is at least partially spotted by depravity. Because you aren't perfected yet. Since that is the case then your free will, even though it is better than it once was and desires to do good, isn't able to do good as God is able to do Good.

I, personally, have been crucified with Christ. My old nature no longer rules me. Therefore, by virtue of the ability of the holy spirit that has been given to me, I have the ability to do good.

Free will doesn't do good. Free will chooses to do good, and with ability, man does good.

No, I have the ability to resist my old nature. Or if I want, I have the ability to resist the holy spirit. My choice, i.e., my free will.

Free will has nothing to do with depravity; it is the ability to make choices. That was never taken away from man.

 

[John146]

I was replying to both responses at the same time. When I choose to believe upon the gospel when confronted, that is not boasting. My choice does not save me. God does the saving, I just choose to believe that I am not good enough to save myself. I need a Savior. Would you consider that boasting?

Freedom to choose???

How do you make a choice when there is a veil over your mind?


The veil coming off is a miracle not performed by our choices. If it was because of our choices then we could boast about how awesome and wise we are. Right? We made all the perfect choices to cause God to change His Mind and save us.

We are pretty awesome. Especially me. lol

 

[sparkman]

I'm starting to get the picture. Calvinists don't think that man has free will because they believe that GOD doesn't have free will. Wow!

Actually, no..God's free will trumps man's free will. That's what YOU don't understand. Arminians are idolaters, placing their alleged autonomous free will in the driver's seat.

 

[sparkman]

I, personally, have been crucified with Christ. My old nature no longer rules me. Therefore, by virtue of the ability of the holy spirit that has been given to me, I have the ability to do good.

Free will doesn't do good. Free will chooses to do good, and with ability, man does good.

No, I have the ability to resist my old nature. Or if I want, I have the ability to resist the holy spirit. My choice, i.e., my free will.

Free will has nothing to do with depravity; it is the ability to make choices. That was never taken away from man.

If God causes the redeemed to will and to do his good pleasure, where does his will come in?

Philippians 2: 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[sparkman]

Well these things we do know.

The gnostics believed that sin resulted from a total depravity/inability of man's nature, and all of the pre-Augustine church fathers believed that sin resulted from acts of man's will (while acknowledging that man's depraved nature could influence their choices).

The 'former' gnostic Augustine formulated the theology that sin resulted from an almost totally depraved nature, which theology Calvin expanded into a more severe form (total depravity/inability)

You guys are also denying the teachings of Martin Luther, who was the PRIMARY CATALYST behind rejection of the Roman Catholic church and it's bad doctrine.

So, in effect, you are a bunch of Pelagians.

Read "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther.

 

[sparkman]

So when you pray for a sick family member, you are praying to change you? I pray that my family member would be healed, that God would change the circumstances of their sickness. Does prayer bring us closer to God? Sure can.

God ordains both the means and the end..therefore the prayer is effective, and is also ordained by God. No contradiction.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. Not conflating. Showing.

You, personally, through your free will have the ability to commit sin.

You, personally, through your free will have no ability to do good.


You think it is your free will that is able to do good, but you are completely wrong.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


You've got the ability to resist your free will. But that doesn't give you the ability to use that free will for good.

Your free will is at least partially spotted by depravity. Because you aren't perfected yet. Since that is the case then your free will, even though it is better than it once was and desires to do good, isn't able to do good as God is able to do Good.

I am almost with ya here.

I still must chose to set my mind on the things of the spirit and not on the flesh.. I can chose to remain a babe in Christ, Or grown in Christ, and become an elder myself.

Even if I chose to do right, I can't take credit, For it is God who showed me and empowered me to love as he loved me, Without that power and experience, your right, I could never chose to do good.. Even if I did a good or moral deed. It was not good, because it was carnal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, no..God's free will trumps man's free will. That's what YOU don't understand. Arminians are idolaters, placing their alleged autonomous free will in the driver's seat.

God will never force anyone to do anything against their will. That is where I have an issue with calvanism..

 

[sparkman]

If man's free will reigns supreme, why do free willers bother to pray for salvation of a family member? Wouldn't any intervention on God's part be construed as violation of his free will?

Never mind that his will isn't free anyways..he's in bondage to sin no matter what they claim

By the way I have to quit using Arminian as I don't think Arminians are as radical as some in this conversation. They are more like free willers or Pelagians.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You guys are also denying the teachings of Martin Luther, who was the PRIMARY CATALYST behind rejection of the Roman Catholic church and it's bad doctrine.

So, in effect, you are a bunch of Pelagians.

Read "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther.

Luther got his theology from Augustine as well. Both he and Calvin should have gone further back to the writings of the early church fathers. Well, they actually did, but they rejected their witness in favor of Augustine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If man's free will reigns supreme, why do free willers bother to pray for salvation of a family member? Wouldn't any intervention on God's part be construed as violation of his free will?

Never mind that his will isn't free anyways..he's in bondage to sin no matter what they claim

By the way I have to quit using Arminian as I don't think Arminians are as radical as some in this conversation. They are more like free willers or Pelagians.

God uses mans free will to his good purpose. God gets all the credit, man gets none.. Because God has all the power..

I can not take credit for using a crane to lift an expensive heavy peace of machinery to the roof of a high rise, the crane would (should) get all the credit Without the crane, I could will all I want, I would never get the machinery up..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luther got his theology from Augustine as well. Both he and Calvin should have gone further back to the writings of the early church fathers. Well, they actually did, but they rejected their witness in favor of Augustine.

Why did they not just go to a bible?

Most churches teach the legalism of the catholic church.. Things which are set in stone die hard..

Calvanists and Augustinians will be in heaven, being shown how they erred is some of their doctrines. Arminans, and catholics will be in hell. screaming at God because he rejected their works.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Actually, no..God's free will trumps man's free will. That's what YOU don't understand. Arminians are idolaters, placing their alleged autonomous free will in the driver's seat.

Since when does GOD's will trump man's will to reject him? Scripture witnesses the exact opposite - whosoever will.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If God causes the redeemed to will and to do his good pleasure, where does his will come in?

Philippians 2: 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

GOD doesn't force men to will to do his will. He speaks and draws men through his love so that they themselves will will to do GOD's will.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If man's free will reigns supreme, why do free willers bother to pray for salvation of a family member? Wouldn't any intervention on God's part be construed as violation of his free will?

Never mind that his will isn't free anyways..he's in bondage to sin no matter what they claim

By the way I have to quit using Arminian as I don't think Arminians are as radical as some in this conversation. They are more like free willers or Pelagians.

Intervention of persuasion is not the same as intervention of force.