Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[Grace777x70]

For us believers...

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 

[royalscot]

I have to Because if I do not have faith, I am still dead..

Belief is not enough, even demons believe,

rubbish. proof to your pudding.

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

rubbish. proof to your pudding.

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Yes. regeneration (eternal life) is given to those who believe, Because God sent his son.. Not because of what they did.

 

[valiant]

Whosoever will...

that is evidence of WILL not FREE WILL

 

[phil36]

I have to Because if I do not have faith, I am still dead..

Belief is not enough, even demons believe,

You have just made my argument for me EG. Belief/faith is not enough as you correct state even demons have belief/faith..

You are right belief is not enough..no work will save you It is only when man has been made alive will he believe have faith. God has chosen you, he has a purpose for you and He will renew you.

That is why Jesus explains this very succinctly that mans own belief will save no one he needs to be born again (regenerated):

John 3:

1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP]a[/SUP] ”4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP]b[/SUP] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP]c[/SUP]must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP]d[/SUP]9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[SUP]e[/SUP] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[SUP]f[/SUP] 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[SUP]g[/SUP]

 

[valiant]

rubbish. proof to your pudding.

For God So Loved the World
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John distinguished between believe into and believe in (John 2.23-25)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have just made my argument for me EG. Belief/faith is not enough as you correct state even demons have belief/faith..

You are right belief is not enough..no work will save you It is only when man has been made alive will he believe have faith. God has chosen you, he has a purpose for you and He will renew you.

That is why Jesus explains this very succinctly that mans own belief will save no one he needs to be born again (regenerated):

John 3:

1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP]a[/SUP] ”4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP]b[/SUP] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP]c[/SUP]must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP]d[/SUP]9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[SUP]e[/SUP] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[SUP]f[/SUP] 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[SUP]g[/SUP]

Faith is enough, Not belief. You totally misrepresented what I said.

Fact. As long as my sin is not forgiven, I am dead in sin.
Fact, I am justified (declared innocent of all sin) by faith

thus,, I must have faith while I am still unforgiven, so I can be forgiven and born again.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

that is evidence of WILL not FREE WILL

It really makes a mockery of GOD, who commands men to choose, to claim that he does the choosing. Quite absurd.

 

[royalscot]

Yes. regeneration (eternal life) is given to those who believe, Because God sent his son.. Not because of what they did.

god already, had his plan, we are learning from him. your logic, has still rooted in understanding that came from the bible.
ie the world, has non believers in it. but still turns by his word. (a unmerited faviour ,that the non believer, cant understand.)

if god did not love, the word, then the white horse, the non christian jews wanted, would have came.
so believer and non believers profit from gods forgiveness. at by god forgiveness, the world still turning.

so gods plan, is still continuing to the ends of time.etc our understanding dies, with us.

 

[phil36]

Faith is enough, Not belief. You totally misrepresented what I said.

Fact. As long as my sin is not forgiven, I am dead in sin.
Fact, I am justified (declared innocent of all sin) by faith

thus,, I must have faith while I am still unforgiven, so I can be forgiven and born again.

I understand your position EG, Nicodemus struggled aswell. Certainly faith/belief is totally yours to do, its not God's faith. It is yours.

I agree with both your 'facts'. your conclusin is not factual. regeneration is not justification, justification does not turn your heart of stone to flesh, rebirth/born again does regeneration.

The first step in our salvation is by God and God alone., then iwe co-operate by excersing faith and trust. I though most people knew this.. this was part of Luthers argument with Rome...????

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand your position EG, Nicodemus struggled aswell. Certainly faith/belief is totally yours to do, its not God's faith. It is yours.

No, It would only be mine if I had faith in myself. that's why legalism dies. It is faith in yourself. and not in the one who can save you.


It is the work of God that I have faith in, not my own. So I am not sure you do understand me..

I agree with both your 'facts'. your conclusin is not factual. regeneration is not justification, justification does not turn your heart of stone to flesh, rebirth/born again does regeneration.

I never said regeneration was justification.

I said regeneration can only be a RESULT of justification.

God changes us after he regenerates us. But he can not regenerate us when we are still dead in sin. (unjustified)

The first step in our salvation is by God and God alone., then iwe co-operate by excersing faith and trust. I though most people knew this.. this was part of Luthers argument with Rome...????

It was God and God alone

1. God (the son)died
2. God (the Holy Spirit) Rose God (the son) from the dead because God (the father) accepted his payment in full
3. God (the Father) sent God (the HS) through God (the son) to convice me of sin righteousness and judgment, and to help me understand the law and prophets. That all have sinned and fall short.

I had to make a choice, Continue to have faith in self. and reject Gods leading. (PRIDE)

or humble myself and be the tax collector beginning God to have mercy on a sinner such as me.

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble..


[SUB][/SUB]

 

[phil36]

Hi EG,

I understand what you are saying, and it really is just semi pelagian. However, that said many believe what you do love Jesus and are saved.

What you are basically saying is this...Lazerus helped Jesus raise himself from the dead. Which isnt biblical. Have a read agan of John 3. Nicodemus had trouble with this regenerating grace aswell. Nicodemus would have thought that it was his faith or obedience that would keep him in covenant relationship. But Nicodemus should have understood, knowing scriture as he did 'Ae you not a teacher of Israel'!

Paul puts it more clearly in Ephesians 2 cf. vv4-6,

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP]a[/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


The regenerating grace that God startedwere 'God made us alive' v5a, we co operate by excercising faith to this grace in Christ with and through faith v8.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG,

I understand what you are saying, and it really is just semi pelagian. However, that said many believe what you do love Jesus and are saved.

What you are basically saying is this...Lazerus helped Jesus raise himself from the dead. Which isnt biblical. Have a read agan of John 3. Nicodemus had trouble with this regenerating grace aswell. Nicodemus would have thought that it was his faith or obedience that would keep him in covenant relationship. But Nicodemus should have understood, knowing scriture as he did 'Ae you not a teacher of Israel'!

Paul puts it more clearly in Ephesians 2 cf. vv4-6,

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP]a[/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


The regenerating grace that God startedwere 'God made us alive' v5a, we co operate by excercising faith to this grace in Christ with and through faith v8.

Hey bro. I know your saved, and we are brothers. So I will agree to disagree..

Lazarus could not do anything when he was dead. He could not even sin. So that's not a good example.

The fact remains. The penalty of sin is death.

I can not be regenerator while I am still dead in sin..

and I am still dead in sin UNTIL am justified. (justification HAS to precede regeneration, or else God is a lair. and I am made alive while still under sin)

A criminal could be redeemed by someone else. He can not just walk out of jail. But he still has to chose to accept his redeemer.. IN pride, he can chose to remain in jail, even though his payment was made

It is actually very simple. we just need to stop trying to read to much into things.

 

[phil36]

Hi EG,

Lazerus is a good example he was dead physicaly, men and women are dead spritually... both cannot bring themselve alive.

justification HAS to precede regeneration, or else God is a lair. and I am made alive while still under sin

I would be very careful of who you are calling a liar.

Could you provide scripture for what you have said above in the first sentence. Paul answers the second sentence in Ephesians 2, (which is in the post you say you are answering, I even made bold the words for you).

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved

 

[sparkman]

Here's a good meme for this thread

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Good read from a former Calvinist > Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Pre-Augustine church fathers on man's free will.

Lactantius (AD260-330)
"When, therefore, the number of men had begun to increase, God in His forethought, lest the devil, to whom from the beginning He had given power over the earth, should by his subtilty either corrupt or destroy men, as he had done at first, sent angels for the protection and improvement of the human race; and inasmuch as He had given these a free will, He enjoined them above all things not to defile themselves with contamination from the earth, and thus lose the dignity of their heavenly nature." (Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Bk. II, ch. xv)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Pre-Augustine church fathers on man's free will.

Alexander of Alexandria (AD273-326)
"I will endeavor, with your assistance and favor, to examine carefully the position of those who are offended, and deny that we speak the truth, when we say that man is possessed of free-will, and prove that “They perish self-destroyed, By their own fault,” choosing the pleasant in preference to the expedient." (Alexander, Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse VIII, ch. xii)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Pre-Augustine church fathers on man's free will.

Archelaus (AD277)
"This account also indicates that rational creatures have been entrusted with free-will, in virtue of which they also admit of conversions." ... "For all the creatures that God made, He made very good; and He gave to every individual the sense of free-will, in accordance with which standard He also instituted the law of judgment. To sin is ours, and that we sin not is God’s gift, as our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin. ... The judges said: He has given demonstration enough of the origin of the devil. And as both sides admit that there will be a judgment, it is necessarily involved in that admission that every individual is shown to have free-will; and since this is brought clearly out, there can be no doubt that every individual, in the exercise of his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus, The Acts of the Disputation)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Pre-Augustine church fathers on man's free will.

Novatian (AD210-280)
"And lest, again, an unbounded freedom should fall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree; but he was forewarned that evil would arise if perchance he should exercise his free will, in the contempt of the law that was given. For, on the one hand, it had behooved him to be free, lest the image of God should, unfittingly be in bondage; and on the other, the law was to be added, so that an unbridled liberty might not break forth even to a contempt of the Giver. So that he might receive as a consequence both worthy rewards and a deserved punishment, having in his own power that which he might choose to do, by the tendency of his mind in either direction: whence, therefore, by envy, mortality comes back upon him; seeing that, although he might escape it by obedience, he rushes into it by hurrying to be God under the influence of perverse counsel." (Novatian, Trinity, ch. I)