Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

John146 · Feb 9, 2016

If I truly believed God has already elected people to be saved before the foundation of the world, I would not take my wife and kids to a disease infested country, risk lives, for those who are already saved. Or, maybe no one in that country is elect. That would be terrible.

Could I even give the gospel message in good conscience knowing I might be lying to a person. Because that person might not be elect. I would be lying to him saying salvation is possible through Jesus Christ (just not to you pal, because God has elected you to burn for all eternity). Very sadistic indeed.

phil36 said:

phil36 · Feb 9, 2016

John146 said:

What about these men? I am sure they would disagree with you and your view of their faith.

John Calvin: Calvin sent missionaries from Geneva into France and as far away as Brazil. Most of these young men sent to France died a martyr’s death, but the church of Geneva continued to send them.
John Eliot: A missionary sent to the American Indians in the 1600’s. He is believed to be the first missionary among this people group. As many have said, if William Carey is the father of the modern mission’s movement, then John Eliot is its grandfather.
David Brainerd: A missionary to the American Indians in the 1700’s. Many historians believe that he has sent more individuals into the mission field than any other person in the history of the church via his diary, An Account of the Life of the Late Reverend David Brainerd.
Theodorus Frelinghuysen: The great evangelist and preacher, who set the stage for the First Great Awakening in the middle colonies.
Jonathan Edwards: The great theologian, writer, and preacher of the First Great Awakening. He was also a missionary to the Indians.
George Whitfield: The great voice and preacher of the First Great Awakening. He journeyed across the Atlantic Ocean thirteen times and scholars believe he preached over 18,000 sermons.
William Tennent: He founded the Log College, which later became Princeton University. This college trained pastors and provided many of the revivalist preachers of the First Great Awakening.
Samuel Davies: The famous President of the College of New Jersey (Princeton University), preacher of the First Great Awakening, and evangelist to the slaves of Virginia. It is believed that hundreds of slaves came to saving faith through his evangelism efforts.
William Carey: He is the famous missionary to India and is considered the father of the modern mission’s movement.
Robert Moffat: The first missionary to reach the interior of Africa with the Gospel. He translated the entire Bible and Pilgrim’s Progess into Setswana.
David Livingstone: Arguably, the most famous missionary to the continent of Africa.
Robert Morrison: The first Protestant missionary to China and the first to translate the Bible into Chinese.
Peter Parker: An American physician and missionary to China who first introduced Western medical techniques to the Chinese. He also served as the president of the Medical Missionary Society of China.
Adoniram Judson: The famous missionary to Burma, translated the Bible into Burmese, and established multiple Baptist Churches in Burma. His mission work led many to enter the mission field and was foundational for forming the first Baptist association in America.
Charles Simeon: The vicar of Holy Trinity Church and the founding figure of the Church Missionary Society. This organization was instrumental in leading many students to the mission field. The Society itself has sent more than 9,000 missionaries into the world.
Henry Martyn: The renowned missionary to India and Persia. He preached in the face of opposition and translated the New Testament into a number of languages.
Samuel Zwemer: He is affectionately known as “The Apostle to Islam.” His legacy includes efforts in Bahrain, Arabia, Egypt, and Asia Minor. His writing was used by the Lord to encourage and mobilize an entire generation of missionaries to labor in Islamic countries.
John Stott: Scholar, preacher, pastor, and evangelist of the twentieth century. He was one of the principle authors and the influential leader in establishing the Lausanne Covenant, which promoted world-wide evangelism.
Francis Schaeffer: Pastor and found of L’Abri, which has been used by the Lord to draw many to saving faith as they intellectually wrestled with the tenants of Christianity.
D. James Kennedy: The founder of Evangelism Explosion, which many believe is the most widely used evangelistic training curriculum in church history.
John Piper: Pastor, writer, and theologian, who has been used by the Lord to define missions and send many young people into the mission field.

Does Calvinism kill missions? The evidence suggests something wholly other.

http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2013/07/03/does-calvinism-kill-missions/

John146 · Feb 9, 2016

Seems foolish since God had already saved them before they even were spoken to about God.

phil36 said:

What about these men? I am sure they would disagree with you and your view of their faith.

John Calvin: Calvin sent missionaries from Geneva into France and as far away as Brazil. Most of these young men sent to France died a martyr’s death, but the church of Geneva continued to send them.
John Eliot: A missionary sent to the American Indians in the 1600’s. He is believed to be the first missionary among this people group. As many have said, if William Carey is the father of the modern mission’s movement, then John Eliot is its grandfather.
David Brainerd: A missionary to the American Indians in the 1700’s. Many historians believe that he has sent more individuals into the mission field than any other person in the history of the church via his diary, An Account of the Life of the Late Reverend David Brainerd.
Theodorus Frelinghuysen: The great evangelist and preacher, who set the stage for the First Great Awakening in the middle colonies.
Jonathan Edwards: The great theologian, writer, and preacher of the First Great Awakening. He was also a missionary to the Indians.
George Whitfield: The great voice and preacher of the First Great Awakening. He journeyed across the Atlantic Ocean thirteen times and scholars believe he preached over 18,000 sermons.
William Tennent: He founded the Log College, which later became Princeton University. This college trained pastors and provided many of the revivalist preachers of the First Great Awakening.
Samuel Davies: The famous President of the College of New Jersey (Princeton University), preacher of the First Great Awakening, and evangelist to the slaves of Virginia. It is believed that hundreds of slaves came to saving faith through his evangelism efforts.
William Carey: He is the famous missionary to India and is considered the father of the modern mission’s movement.
Robert Moffat: The first missionary to reach the interior of Africa with the Gospel. He translated the entire Bible and Pilgrim’s Progess into Setswana.
David Livingstone: Arguably, the most famous missionary to the continent of Africa.
Robert Morrison: The first Protestant missionary to China and the first to translate the Bible into Chinese.
Peter Parker: An American physician and missionary to China who first introduced Western medical techniques to the Chinese. He also served as the president of the Medical Missionary Society of China.
Adoniram Judson: The famous missionary to Burma, translated the Bible into Burmese, and established multiple Baptist Churches in Burma. His mission work led many to enter the mission field and was foundational for forming the first Baptist association in America.
Charles Simeon: The vicar of Holy Trinity Church and the founding figure of the Church Missionary Society. This organization was instrumental in leading many students to the mission field. The Society itself has sent more than 9,000 missionaries into the world.
Henry Martyn: The renowned missionary to India and Persia. He preached in the face of opposition and translated the New Testament into a number of languages.
Samuel Zwemer: He is affectionately known as “The Apostle to Islam.” His legacy includes efforts in Bahrain, Arabia, Egypt, and Asia Minor. His writing was used by the Lord to encourage and mobilize an entire generation of missionaries to labor in Islamic countries.
John Stott: Scholar, preacher, pastor, and evangelist of the twentieth century. He was one of the principle authors and the influential leader in establishing the Lausanne Covenant, which promoted world-wide evangelism.
Francis Schaeffer: Pastor and found of L’Abri, which has been used by the Lord to draw many to saving faith as they intellectually wrestled with the tenants of Christianity.
D. James Kennedy: The founder of Evangelism Explosion, which many believe is the most widely used evangelistic training curriculum in church history.
John Piper: Pastor, writer, and theologian, who has been used by the Lord to define missions and send many young people into the mission field.

Does Calvinism kill missions? The evidence suggests something wholly other.

http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2013/07/03/does-calvinism-kill-missions/

DaTK · Feb 9, 2016

The arminian highlighter is so selctive

phil36 · Feb 9, 2016

John146 said:

The things of God do seem foolish to a lot of people.

another example: this is actually a very good read, as the man in question had a similar view to yours: (you might have heard of him)

One of my favorite accounts from church history in this regard is the testimony of George Müller. When he first encountered the doctrines of grace (such as mankind’s total depravity and God’s sovereign election), Müller tried to reject them. He would later describe his initial distaste in his autobiography, “Before this period I had been much opposed to the doctrines of election, particular redemption, and final persevering grace; so much so that . . . I called election a devilish doctrine.”

But as he continued to study God’s Word, Müller reached an unexpected conclusion. He wrote:

I went to the Word, reading the New Testament from the beginning, with a particular reference to these truths. To my great astonishment I found that the passages which speak decidedly for election and persevering grace, were about four times as many as those which speak apparently against these truths; and even those few, shortly after, when I had examined and understood them, served to confirm me in the above doctrines.

Müller initially feared that embracing the doctrine of election would quench his passion for evangelism. But he soon found it had the opposite effect. Consequently, he noted:

In the course of time . . . it pleased God then to show to me the doctrines of grace in a way in which I had not seen them before. At first I hated them, “If this were true I could do nothing at all in the conversion of sinners, as all would depend upon God and the working of His Spirit.” But when it pleased God to reveal these truths to me, and my heart was brought to such a state that I could say, “I am not only content simply to be a hammer, an axe, or a saw, in God’s hands; but I shall count it an honor to be taken up and used by Him in any way; and if sinners are converted through my instrumentality, from my inmost soul I will give Him all the glory;” the Lord gave me to see fruit; the Lord gave me to see fruit in abundance; sinners were converted by scores; and ever since God has used me in one way or other in His service.

That perspective fueled Müller’s evangelistic zeal — from the 10,000 orphans he helped to care for in England to the over 200,000 miles he traveled as an itinerant evangelist, taking the gospel to dozens of foreign nations. Müller’s example is one of many powerful answers, from history, to those who would allege that an affirmation of God’s sovereignty in salvation kills evangelism.

Whether we look to Scripture or church history, we quickly learn that a belief in God’s sovereign election — properly understood — is no deterrent to a passionate witness. In reality, it is just the opposite.

John146 · Feb 9, 2016

Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. "Then shall he say to them on the left hand, Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." God never intended one man to end up in hell. It is not God's will that any should perish in their sins and go to hell. God never elected any man, from the foundation of the world, to spend eternity in hell.

Christ is God's elect. Why was Christ elect? Did Christ need salvation?

Gr8grace · Feb 9, 2016

John146 said:

That is a great point. We are not elected to salvation, we are elected to ALL the benefits that come along with our salvation....................the moment we believe.(eternal security being one of em')

We are the elect because we believed. We are not the elect because God made us believe.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 10, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

You can not PROVE this stuff, the stuff you are posting is not inspired..

so can we please just stick to the word of God. Your not going to convince one person by continually rambling on about what these men who have been dead for centuries may or may not have believed. That is the catholic church way of doing things, Lets not be like them please.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I haven't even heard of this guy until now

In addition, apparently there are serious questions on whether he considered Christ to be fully God. So, I wouldn't quote potential heretics for sources.

Is this coming from Jesse Morrell's writings? As I've said, he is very disreputable in terms of academic scholarship and honesty in general. He is a snake.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Correct, the problem, from their perspective, is that the Calvinist position has the upper hand when it comes to Scripture, that is why Arminians run to the church fathers. The Church fathers were mixed up about various things..including the deity of Christ and infant baptism.

By the way, he already admitted that he's gotten his understanding from Jesse Morrell, and Jesse has been exposed for using spurious writings such as the "Long Letter of Clement". Heretics took the original letter of Clement and added their own heresies to it, and tried to pass them off as Clement's teachings.

Jesse Morrell is a Pelagian-Finneyist who espouses Moral Government Theology. He also is an open theist and denies original sin, imputed righteousness, justification by faith alone, and penal substitutionary atonement. You might as well say he is anti-gospel, because all of these things are core to the gospel message.

Scripture is what matters, not quoting church fathers.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

Gr8grace said:

How do you explain these verses?

Acts 16:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Ephesians 2:8-10 [SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 1:29 [SUP]29 [/SUP]For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

Acts 11:18 [SUP]18 [/SUP]When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

II Tim 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

Regarding the relationship between faith and repentance, faith is turning toward God and repentance is turning away from sin. In these verses, it's apparent that faith, repentance, and salvation as a whole are gifts of God, and that God acts monergistically to save mankind, who is spiritually dead and incapable of responding to God without his intervention. See Ephesians 2:1-5. It is emphatic that mankind is dead in sins, and is incapable of responding to God...not seriously sick but dead.

PeterJens · Feb 10, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

eternally-gratefull said:

The point being made is a simple logical one. Is man truly totally depraved and has inability even with communion with the Lord to walk in righteousness?

If the answer is yes, you then have to conclude that Jesus was not truly human, else he would have the same inability.
If the answer is no, man can walk in righteousness through communion with God in Christ, then Augustine is wrong.

Now for those who have concluded this, and look at church history it is interesting to read this very debate in the early church. The holiness movement and many spiritual people in church history have similarly realised this is true in their own lives. A core point of the gospel in on this very point.

I have known charismatics to claim their own perfection, only to fall. If you have an open mind, a lot of what Jesus says, sin not or something worse might happen to you, makes sense in this context.

One very human trait is to get so wrapped up in our feelings in the moment we do not see the consequences until it is too late. Our hearts do not like imposed rules, but we know they are necessary for our safety, but equally too much restriction stops learning and growth.

So this subject is very pertinent to today and the whole issue we have been discussing over the past few weeks.
In so doing we are learning and growing in our understanding which is a good thing.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

The Parable of the Boat
C. Michael Patton

Here is a quick illustration that I hope you find helpful to distinguish between the various traditions with regard to divine sovereignty, free-will, and salvation. It is certainly not perfect, but I think it works sufficiently.

Pelagianism
All the people are on the boat with the God. At this point, in their natural condition, they don’t need to be saved as they are not in danger. However, most (if not all) people will eventually jump in the water (sin) and find themselves in need of God’s grace. The reason why they jump in the water is because they are following numerous example of those who jumped before them. This example goes all the way back to the first two who jumped into the water, setting the first bad example. God them offers them a life preserver when they call on him for help. If they respond they will be saved (synergism).

Semi-Pelagianism
All people are in the water drowning. They are born drowning. This is the natural habitation of all humanity since the first man and woman jumped into the water. Their legs are cramping and they cannot swim to safety on their own. However, they may desire salvation on their own. Though they cannot attain it, they can call, with a wave of their arm, to God who is eagerly waiting on the edge of the boat. At the first sign of their initiative, God will then throw out the life preserver (grace). If they respond, they will be saved (synergism).

Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy
All people are in the water drowning. They are born drowning. This is the natural habitation of all humanity since the first man and woman jumped into the water. Their legs are cramping and they cannot swim to safety on their own. God, standing on the edge of the boat, makes the first initiative by throwing a life preserver to them (prevenient grace). Upon seeing this act, they make a decision to grab a hold (faith) or to swim away. If they grab a hold, God will slowly pull the rope connected to the life preserver. But they must do their part by swimming along with God’s pull (grace plus works; synergism). If at any time they let go or quit swimming, they will not be saved.

Arminianism
All people are floating in the water dead in their natural condition (total depravity). They are born dead because that has been the condition of humanity since the first man and woman jumped into the water and died (original sin). Death begets death. There must be intervention if they are to be saved. God uses his power to bring every one of them back to life (prevenient grace), but they are still in the water and in danger of drowning. With the regenerated ability to respond to God, now God throws the life preserver to them and calls on them all to grab hold of it. They then make the free-will decision on their own to grab a hold of the life preserver (faith) or to swim away. If they grab a hold, they must continue to hold as God pulls them in (synergism). They don’t need to do anything but hold on. Any effort to swim and aid God is superfluous (sola fide). They can let go of the preserver at any time and, as a consequence, lose their salvation.

Calvinism
All people are floating in the water dead in their natural condition (total depravity). They are born dead because that has been the condition of humanity since the first man and woman jumped into the water and died (original sin). Death begets death. There must be radical intervention if they are to be saved. While God calls out to all of them (general call), due to his mysterious choice, he brings back to life (regeneration) only certain people (election) while passing by the rest (reprobation). He does not use a life preserver, but grabs a hold of the elect individually and immediately pulls them onto the boat (monergism). They naturally grab a hold of God as a consequence of their regeneration (irresistible grace; sola fide). They forever stay on the boat due to their perpetual ability to recognize God’s beauty (perseverance of the saints).

The Parable of the Boat: Illustrating Differences Between Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Arminianism, and CalvinismParchment and Pen Blog

phil36 · Feb 10, 2016

Hi Peter,

Could you clarify this a bit more..... I dont think your intimating that Jesus may have been born with a sin nature? but one part below sounds very like it? If I have read you correct you have the argument wrong.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

Hebrews 12:2 [SUP]2 [/SUP]looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

Pretty funny....Paul and his Damascus Road experience is definitely one that the free-willers don't want to talk about

God is Sovereign!

Acts 9: 9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest [SUP]2 [/SUP]and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, [SUP]12 [/SUP]and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” [SUP]17 [/SUP]So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; [SUP]19 [/SUP]and taking food, he was strengthened.

sparkman · Feb 10, 2016

Jonah 2:9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the LORD!”

Psalm 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD; your blessing be on your people! Selah

PeterJens · Feb 10, 2016

phil36 said:

On a simple level, if the human condition is fallen, ie there is no ability to walk pleasing to God, even washed clean, in communion with the Lord, walking in the Spirit, then righteousness, ie walking in purity is impossible unless you say it is imputed righteousness alone.

Now this failure has to defined in such a way that Jesus could be human and also be sinless. Or you end up with a theology saying Jesus was not truly human, but appeared so.

For me this quest started with a question. What is eternity and what is this mysterious transformation on seeing Jesus into perfection? What if we were walking very close to reality, but our grasp was skewed?

If in reality self deception and denying the nature of sin within, inner conflict resolution is part of walking with Jesus, shuts the kingdom out of our souls. If this is the reality of "life", then it is equally important to empower people to see what being whole means, or wearing your heart on your sleeve, or being wise yet vulnerable, exposed yet secure, weak yet eternally strong.

So the doctrine of inability might be a deep deception. I suspect it is.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 10, 2016

sparkman said:

No, I didn't get it from Morrell's website. I don't trust him either.

PeterJens · Feb 10, 2016

phil36 said:

If you hold with a doctrine of inability inherited through Adam, you have to distinguish this from Jesus and what he was born into. Gnostics often link the sin nature to the human condition, so Jesus could not have been truly human.

How would you separate the two, Jesus and inability to be righteous?

Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

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