Muslim Christian debate (freindly) on the divinity of jesus

[4enlightment]

I don't how many christians here have read the Holy Qur'aan , But it gives Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus son of Mary ( Pbuh ) much respect in the Qur'aan . And the Holy Qur'aan even tell Muslims to read the Scriptures before the Qur'aan , Which is The Holy Bible . I have discuss this topic on many of other forum , Some agree some disagree .

Isa - Iysay - arabic - Holy Qur'aan , 2 ; 87 , 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 171 ,

Holy Qur'aan 2 ; 87 , Revealed In The Year 624 - 626 A.D. Al Baqarah ( The Heifer ) Where It States ; And indeed We , Heavenly Host had given Mosheh Al Kitaab - arabic - Scripture We Heavenly Host cause him ( Mosheh ) to be ( Succeeded ) by that one sent ( Yehowshuwa ) and we Heavenly Host also gave Isa , the son of Mirian ( 22 Books ) of Al Bayyinaat - arabic - ''The Clear Evidence and We Heavenly Host Ayadnaahu - arabic - 'Supported Him by way of Ruwh Al Quduws - arabic - The Holy Soul , ( The Messenger Gabriel / Jibriyl '' One who came forth from Allah . So whenever one was sent to you , with the facts that your spirit did not suit , ( and things that was opposed to your wishes ) you became filled and pouting with pride , A portion ( party ) of you called some ( of the ones sent ) liars , and another portion ( party ) from amongst you would kill some of them ( like the newbearers , Yawchanan -The Baptist , Immanuw'el son of Yesha'yah , Ezrah , and Leummiym ) .

Holy Qur'aan 3 ; 45 ,Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D Aali Imraan Where It States , So when Al Malaa-ikat - arabic - The Angelic Messengers , The Heavenly Host Michael , Gabriel and Raphael ) said ; O Miriam , surely Allah gives you glad tidings with a words from Him , whose name is Al Masiyh - arabic - The Anointed One , ( the Messiah ) Isa son of Miriam , Wajiyhaan - arabic -Illustrious in Al Dunyaa - arabic - The Physical ( Being in Flesh ) Wo; and at Al Aakhirat - arabic - The End ( the spiritual being a spirit to come ) and of Al Muqarrabiyn - arabic - Those Who Are Near ( to the Source Isa is half Angelic Being ) .

Holy Qur'aan 4 ; 171 , Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. Al Nisaa ( The Enosite Women ) Where It States ; Oh Ahl - Family of Al Kitaab - arabic - The Scriptures , ( the Torah ) , don't transgress in your means of judgement , and don't say things about The Source , except fact ( beyond any doubt ) Surely , Al Masiyh - arabic - The Messiah Isa Ibn -Adopted Son of Miriam is Rasuwl - One Sent , ( of ) The Source Allah and Kalimatuhu - arabic - ( A bearer of ) His Words , He Alqaahaa - arabic - Threw It Ilaa ''To Miriam and Ruwhun - arabic A Soul Minhu - arabic - From Himself so have faith in The Source , and his Rasuwl - arabic - One Sent , and don't say ''Thalaathatun - arabic - Three ( He , The Source , is part of a trinity ) , Intahuw - arabic - It is time to Finish it . It is good for you all . For The Source Allah is Waahidun - arabic - One Ilaahun ( Allah ) Source ; ( so far be it ) His glory , that there should exist for Him a Walad - arabic - 'Physical Son ; and all that is in Al Samaawaat ''The Skies ' and Al Ard - The Planet Earth is His , All Enosites on Earth are His sons , and daughters ) , and He is Kafaa - arabic -Sufficient as a Wakiylaan - arabic - Advocate .

Isa or Iysay - arabic - is from the greek Eeaysooce - greek , Which means '' Savior '' Jesus was the of the Israelites Newsbearers or Prophet , He was also one of the major Prophets . He came as A Messiah to the lost sheep of the house of Israel , The remnant of Judah only . ( Matthew 15 ; 24 ) .

More in next post

Son means begat, to come from, sturdy branch and which daughter can mean a tender branch. People perception of a son is a male offspring. Jesus was apart of God, but not the way we all perceive him to be. Jesus is like the the branch on a tree; which the branch is still part of the tree but it is not to be consider separated from the tree. The sons which people produces has it own will to guide their own life; and which Jesus desires are one of the same with the One that He's connected to. Jesus is God and by us separating Him from God makes him lower than the angels. Jesus wasn't a prophet, but instead He was the branch ( the part of God that creates) that produces prophets.

 

[RaphaEl2nd]

Son means begat, to come from, sturdy branch and which daughter can mean a tender branch. People perception of a son is a male offspring. Jesus was apart of God, but not the way we all perceive him to be. Jesus is like the the branch on a tree; which the branch is still part of the tree but it is not to be consider separated from the tree. The sons which people produces has it own will to guide their own life; and which Jesus desires are one of the same with the One that He's connected to. Jesus is God and by us separating Him from God makes him lower than the angels. Jesus wasn't a prophet, but instead He was the branch ( the part of God that creates) that produces prophets.

Nowhere according to the Holy Bible nor in the Holy Qur'aan does Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , Ever cliam to be the Creator . According to chapter and verse that is . According to the Scriptures he was a Prophet / Messiah .

If Yashu'a is God then who was he Praying to in Matthew 6 ; 9 - 13 , He says , '' Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' , So he's not God or otherwise he would've been ( Praying To Himself ) . Let me point out to you that Yashu'a was an Israelite . It is common sense that Yashu'a would not ( Violate ) such a powerful Israelite Judaic command as the worship of God alone ( Exodus 20 - 3-4 ) By claiming ro be that very God whom he prayer to in Matthew 26 ; 39 , And I Quote ; And he went a litte farther , And ( Fell On His Face ) , And ( Prayed ) . Saying , O my ( Father ) .

The Book of Matthew 15 ; 24 , Where It States ; But he answered and said I Am not Sent but Unto the Lost sheep of the House of Israel . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >
The Prophet / Messiah Isa son of Miriam / Mary is Glorified in The Holy Qur'aan more then any other Prophet . One of the more common Titles for The Prophet / Messiah Isa so of Miriam / Mary .

Once as the ( Sign of the Hour ) -- Alamus Saa'ati - arabic . Holy Qur'aan 43 ; 61 . , Revealed In The Year 618 A.D. Al Zukhruf ( The Golden Ornaments ) Where It States ; So hold tightly to that which We Heavenly Host , Uwhiya - arabic - 'Inpired you ( The Holy Qur'aan ) you are on the narrow path of the ones who stood up straight ( those before him the Hebrews ) .

The Prophet / Messiah Isa son of Miriam / Mary as Rasuwl , Holy Qur'aan 3 ; 49 , Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. Aali Imraan Where It States ; And a Rasuwl - arabic - A One Sent to the Banee - arabic - Israaiyl Children of Israel / Jacon ( Saying ) Surely , I just came to you all with a Verse from your Rabb 'Master . Surely , Akhluqu - arabic - I Created for you from Al Tiyn - arabic - Clay , as the Kahay -at - arabic - Form of Al Tyr - arabic - The Bird - ( the dove ) , so Anfukhu - arabic - I Blew Fiyhi -arabic - In It ( the Holy Spirit ) , so Yakuwnu - arabic - It Will Become ( Exist As ) a Tayr - arabic - Bird by the permission of The Source Allah ; and Ubri-u -arabic - I heal ( cure ) Al Akmaha - arabic - The Blind From Birth , and Al Abrass - arabic - The Leprous , and Uhiy - arabic - Inspire 'Al Mawtaa - Those Who Died ( passed on to the next life ) , by way of the Source , Allah's permission ; and Unabbi - ukum - arabic - I Inform You As As A Newsbearer of that which you eat , and what you Tadakhiruwn - arabic - store up ( for the future ) in Buyuwtikum - arabic - Your Homes . Surely , in that are signs for you all , if you were Mumineen - arabic - Faithful .

With all do respect I don't deal with Story-lines that not back up with scriptures . Nor do I put one Religion above another .

 

[4enlightment]

John 1:1[ The Word Became Flesh ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 11:52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

John 17:11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may beone as we are one.

John 8:57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

John 14:7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and haveseen him.”

John 14:9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

John 3:34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

Why is it so easy for us to believe that demons can move about in any form and able to walk through walls or basically do anything? But when it comes to God, He can't do nothing but sit on a throne on a cloud and float around? We has put satan above God so which it means that satan reign over us.

Isaiah 40:26Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

Isaiah 45:7I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

 

[doulos]

I don't how many christians here have read the Holy Qur'aan ,

I’ve read the quran, and the quran instructs Mohamaads followers to believe the bible! . Consider for your self whether or not the followers of Mohammad do as the quran instructs concerning the bible. The suras quoted in this post are from the popular Yusuf Ali English translation. The bible verses quoted will be from the KJV. Links will be in blue followed by <click

Sura 57.27 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy.

Look at where Mohammad’s “Allah” told Mohammad to get his advice if he had doubts:
Sura 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Weren’t these Suras were written hundreds of years after the bible had been translated into every popular language, copied tens of thousands of times, and had been read all over the known world for centuries? There are over 5300 partial or complete manuscripts of God’s Word that were penned prior to 300 AD.
Sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So Christian's are specifically instructed by Mohammed to judge - even Islam - according to what God has revealed to us in the Gospel.
Sura 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

And Muslims are given similar instruction in sura 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Some Muslims claim that the bible was corrupted, but this would be going directly against the Quran, let alone an admission that Allah didn't know the bible would be corrupted before he prompted Muhammad to recite these verses.

Sura 48.29 ... This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

One of, if not the most quoted verse in the Gospel is:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

But the Quran says in surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

In Jesus words from the gospel of Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

To the horror of those who understand the implications, Mohammed's followers led by the spirit of antichrist are filled with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve. That Jesus wasn't sacrificed on the cross to save all those from sin who have faith in His shed blood. If the Scriptures were corrupted before the 7th century and Christians and Jews are condemned, then how could Mohammed's "Allah" have indicated the following - in the future tense - regarding Christians and Jews?

Sura 2.62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (also 5.69)

Those "those who follow" not followed, "shall have" not are having, "shall be" no fear, all in the present or future tense to Mohammed.

Sura 80.13 (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour, 14 Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,15 (Written) by the hands of scribes- 16 Honourable and Pious and Just.
That was written during Mohammed's early Mecca days, so the books he referred to are necessarily the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians as they existed for hundreds of years before Mohammed.

Indeed Mohammed was to confirm and guard those Scriptures according to sura 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:...

But given sura 4:157 above, he wouldn't seem to have accomplished that.

...so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
to be continued

 

[doulos]

Continuing

Do you trust God to show you the truth?
Allah instructs Muhammad's followers to believe in the scripture that came before Mohammed. How could a Muslim obey Allah's commandment to: "Believe in ... the scripture which He sent to those before (him)." if you haven't read those scriptures? <click

Sura 5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

Why indeed.

Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

Are we to believe that God was in such a state of confusion that He had to annul and replace inspired verses in the Quran?

This LINK <click to the Gospel is from the King James Version which is the most widely quoted and respected English version in Christianity. It is also the version from which Ahmed Deedat used to quote. Why not read a little and trust Allah to "show you the truth of the matters"?

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.

1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

May God bless you and guide us ALL in ALL truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Here is an audio King James Bible that you can listen to for free. http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html <click
You can listen with "Real Player".
Here is another audio version, (perhaps not quite as dynamic) but you can listen for free with Windows Media Player, and download in MP3. They mention they “have another KJV recording that is voice only (in MP3) and can be legally copied for ministry use." ("These disc can be copied and given to others! (non-commercial use)) http://www.audiotreasure.com/KJV/ <click
Here is an Arabic audio New Testament and a text Bible translated into Arabic, and much more. Arabic Bible Outreach Ministry - Home of The Arabic Bible <click
Here is an online King James Bible that you can perform searches in for terms like "Son of God". http://www.blueletterbible.org/ <click
Here is a bible with many versions, and Strong's definitions, and a Textus Receptus Greek interlinear are just a click away. http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm <click

 

[leonardronaldo]

strong finish.
more on the comparison of Isa vs Yasou3 (arabic for Jesus) has been started in the Arab Christian forum.

blessings.

 

[Bowman]

strong finish.
more on the comparison of Isa vs Yasou3 (arabic for Jesus) has been started in the Arab Christian forum.

blessings.

Do you have a link brother...?

 

[leonardronaldo]

it's also in CC.
CC has just started a new forum, Arab Christian Forum.
http://christianchat.com/arab-christian-forum/

 

[Bowman]

it's also in CC.
CC has just started a new forum, Arab Christian Forum.
http://christianchat.com/arab-christian-forum/

Thanks bro!

 

[KG]

Bismillah, thanks for starting the discussion. I am not one who takes every word of the Bible literally. Rather, I believe it should be read in context, and as a Christian, priority should be given to the New Testament. This, I find, is the only means of overcoming some of the inherent contradictions between the universal message of Jesus and the violent passages of the Old Testament. As such, i don't believe that Old Testament verses offer a whole lot of help in accepting the divinity of Christ.

i say this because I lost faith many years ago and became an agnostic. As I recently found my way back to a belief in God, and eventually, a personal God, I then had to evaluate the question you raised in this forum. Is Jesus divine? I started skeptically, imagining the liklihood of a non-virgin birth, and the possibility that Jesus only thought he was the Son of God, whatever that actually means. But although I doubted the divinity of Jesus, I believed he still exists, and thathe brought the right message to humanity. That of Love. And for that, even with my doubts, I accepted that I was at least a follower of Christ. For me, that's where he entered my heart, my prayers, and I began to feel very profound changes in my life, not least of which was the lifting of a two year long depression and a much more positive attitude toward all other people.

So was Jesus divine? I'm still working on the question, but I have to admit that there are too many miracles, performed in front of too many people. Then there are the apparitions after the crucifixion in front of hundreds of witnesses. Could he have survived the crucifixion? Unlikely. The Romans wanted him dead, and they were expert executioners. And nobody who had been through the body breaking torture that he had could ever have walked and appeared to people so soon afterwards. that's a pretty strong case for divinity.

 

[Brainfreeze]

. For me, that's where he entered my heart, my prayers, and I began to feel very profound changes in my life, not least of which was the lifting of a two year long depression and a much more positive attitude toward all other people.

The Romans wanted him dead, and they were expert executioners. And nobody who had been through the body breaking torture that he had could ever have walked and appeared to people so soon afterwards. that's a pretty strong case for divinity.

AMEN!!.. Nice post brother

 

[Straightshot]

"As such, i don't believe that Old Testament verses offer a whole lot of help in accepting the divinity of Christ."


Maybe you will discover that He is both God and human

How about this OT prophet's view [Zechariah 14]? .... or this one [Micah 5]?

What about this answer form the Lord in the NT? [John 14:8-11]

Here is a hint for you .... the Lord's Word [your Bible] is one book, not two unrelated or superseded by the other

All must be taken together and interpreted literally ..... all symbolism is defined as the literal meaning either within the context of the passage or in some other related passage

 

[Bowman]

Bismillah, thanks for starting the discussion. I am not one who takes every word of the Bible literally. Rather, I believe it should be read in context, and as a Christian, priority should be given to the New Testament. This, I find, is the only means of overcoming some of the inherent contradictions between the universal message of Jesus and the violent passages of the Old Testament. As such, i don't believe that Old Testament verses offer a whole lot of help in accepting the divinity of Christ.

What?!

How do you think that the Jews of Jesus' time knew that He was divine when He came to them?

By studying and knowing their scriptures (what we now call the OT)!

Come on....

 

[resurrection33]

if anyone wants to debate on the islamic concept of jesus and the christian concept of jesus feel free i am not here to offend any ones biliefs or faith pls just a freindly discussion

The only thing that matters here is the truth: Jesus Christ is God in flesh. God decided to come to earth as a man, so he did so as Jesus Christ.

 

[AtonedFor]

John quotes Jesus as saying: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
Luke says that Jesus increased in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
In Hebrews too (Hebrews 5:8) we read that Jesus learned obedience.
But God’s knowledge and wisdom is always perfect, and God does not learn new things.
Because there is only one God, and He is God from everlasting to everlasting (see Psalms 90:2
But God does not change. God said so according to Malachi 3:6.
God declares: “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.” (Isaiah 43:10).

Quickly ... I don't wish to waste too much time on this!

Obviously, Father God in heaven is greater than God (who is limited in a human body) is!
Obviously, the man part of Jesus had a soul (mind/intellect, will, emotions), which needed developing!
Obviously, the man part of Jesus had a soul, which needed to learn obedience!
Obviously, the man part of Jesus had a soul, which needed to learn new things!
Obviously, Scripture makes it extremely clear that God is a triune Godhead!
Obviously, God's essence does not change, but Scripture says He can change His mind!
Obviously, Scripture makes it extremely clear that the Word became Jesus, the unique God-man,
so God was not formed here ... the Word merely entered a human body and lived there 33 years!

NOTE: one of the major reasons for the Word coming to earth was to demonstrate how man is to live!
Man is to be humble, increase in wisdom, learn obedience, learn new things, etc.!

I realize that this is a trillion miles over your head ...
for spiritual truth is NOT obvious to people who belong to Satan.

So, pray to "the one and only living God" that the truth be revealed to you!

 

[kiuku]

if anyone wants to debate on the islamic concept of jesus and the christian concept of jesus feel free i am not here to offend any ones biliefs or faith pls just a freindly discussion

sure i love talking about the differences in the two ways two look at the belief in jesus.

 

[kiuku]

Im new here trying to figure out how it works.

 

[kiuku]

I would say it's possible for Jesus to be who Christians claim, it seems for the most part the Qur'an agrees.

 

[Tintin]

I would say it's possible for Jesus to be who Christians claim, it seems for the most part the Qur'an agrees.

LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Bowman]

I would say it's possible for Jesus to be who Christians claim, it seems for the most part the Qur'an agrees.

The Koran was copied from the Holy Bible...thus, it must agree that Jesus is God.