getting dates about a young earth

[Gr8grace]

How so....?

Gen 1:1~~American Standard Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Jer 4~~ 23I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. 24I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro. 25I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled. 26I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

 

[Bowman]

Gen 1:1~~American Standard Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Jer 4~~23I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. 24I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro. 25I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled. 26I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Where does the Hebrew mention a cessation of creation, exactly?

 

[RodGard4322]

What is very interesting is whether the earth is 6000 years old, or 4+ billion years old does not change the fact that God is God. I believe the earth and universe are billions of years old which is a long time to us yet barely a moment to God. God has reviled many wonders to us though out understanding of science, but our measurements fall short. Calculus teaches us no matter how close we get to something, we still have infinity to go. Science now teaches us we might be in a bubble surrounded by an infinite amount of other bubbles (personally that sounds like cellular activity to me). The point is the more we understand science, the more powerful and greater God becomes. Is radio dating useful...yes. Is it flawed...yes. Do the ideas behind it paint a picture of a God even more incomprehensible than ever before...yes!!! I will say this though...the ideas presented by science are defeating the free will church, but there is nothing science can do to defeat the all powerful God the bible truly talks about. God ordained the beginning from the end and everything in-between (Isaiah 46:10-11...What a God!!!)

 

[Word_Swordsman]

When was the last time that anyone at ICR was nominated for a Nobel Prize in physics?

I would assume by far most science research centers, universities, science professors, science professionals, science textbook authors, people otherwise engaged in science projects don't personally know a single Nobel Prize winner.

So you apparently assume that's the standard for practice of sound science? The cancer research center near here is bogus without a Noble Prize winner on staff?

Your response is typical of opponents of truth. I was like that, being brainwashed by teachers of science during the 1960's in grade school, then more in college, until the mid 70's. I got my senses about evolution from sitting in bleachers listening to Dr. Dwayne Gish debate the best his opponents could muster. The word passed among evolutionists it is best not to face him. Along came other great debaters and seminar speakers like from ICR. All along the favorite replies to creationists has been what you did, challenging authority, instead of giving an actual debate answer. The obvious avoidance has been the possibility of those secularists' textbook sanctity, IOW a threat to their book sales if embarrassed too much. In those days their books still contained articles about Piltdown Man and the many other hoaxes and downright horrible "science", which were not adequately rescinded in subsequent textbooks. The old false posters are still in use in our local schools, for the sake of amazing art value.

That's pretty much all the fact there is for evolutionists today. They live out a great lie that plunges many into disbelief of the entire Bible, given they are taught Genesis is a lie, at best a fairy tale, that Jesus and the apostles took literally as truth. Much "blood" is on the hands of evolutionists who will face judgment from an outraged God.

True science backs up the Genesis account of creation and the flood, the beginning only about 6,000 years ago. The Genesis account of origins defines good science. The Bible provides the only logical explanations of what people should know. Creation scientists fill in the rest of the story, which actually enables good modern science, as God is still awarding discovery of truth.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

What is very interesting is whether the earth is 6000 years old, or 4+ billion years old does not change the fact that God is God. I believe the earth and universe are billions of years old which is a long time to us yet barely a moment to God. God has reviled many wonders to us though out understanding of science, but our measurements fall short. Calculus teaches us no matter how close we get to something, we still have infinity to go. Science now teaches us we might be in a bubble surrounded by an infinite amount of other bubbles (personally that sounds like cellular activity to me). The point is the more we understand science, the more powerful and greater God becomes. Is radio dating useful...yes. Is it flawed...yes. Do the ideas behind it paint a picture of a God even more incomprehensible than ever before...yes!!! I will say this though...the ideas presented by science are defeating the free will church, but there is nothing science can do to defeat the all powerful God the bible truly talks about. God ordained the beginning from the end and everything in-between (Isaiah 46:10-11...What a God!!!)

The laws of physics are being used more these days to limit earth's age to thousands of years, not millions or billions. For you to be right would require reversibility of entropy, defying the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. To remain stable, the energy of earth out have to be equal to incoming energy from outside earth. Incoming energy is far less than energy changed to heat and magnetism, making life on the surface possible. There you have a short explanation of why earth's magnetic field must deteriorate, and can't possibly restore itself.

There is nothing that can defeat the Church. We can suffer persecution, while God will not let us face more than we can endure.

Take heart. Christian scientists, and even many secular scientists are seeing the fact of Biblical creation, and the necessity of there being but a literal day between each step God took during that first week during which this planet revolved 7 times. For instance, God didn't have to form man from the soil, then wait a few million years for Adam to be able to be human. He is God, he is almighty, he is sovereign over his creation, and had/has not had to tell us a fable to learn truth about our origin.

The "Gap Theory" some insist was a period of billions of years long, was offered as a compromise by preachers who were overwhelmed by Darwin and others, the Church having no satisfactory answer other than the Bible. All that has changed.

Jesus (and the apostles) endorsed Genesis, and is the one our salvation is based upon. The is the truth, and cannot lie.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The answer to this is staring right at you. Look into the sky at night. Some of those stars are so far away that their light takes more than 10k years to reach your eyesight. How long do you think the human race would have survived had we lived at the same time as dinosaurs? You would have been a tasty snack for T-Rex.

Edwin Hubble first described star "red shift, blue shift". Most stars are still moving away from Earth, the universe expanding. It appears it all began in our vicinity. The exception is the Andromeda Galaxy is coming out way on a collision course way into the future. Those stars show "blue shift". The majority are proved to be going away from us by their "red shift". Have you heard a police siren coming, the sound growing louder, then immediately upon passing the sound suddenly drops way down? You will still hear it perhaps miles past. It's the Doppler effect. Light behaves like that appearance-wise. The shortened sound waves of the approaching siren would help understand light's "blue shift", while the receding longer sound waves help understand "red shift" astronomers can measure.

Now, if a star is going out and away, it is a light source that could be seen here on earth on day one. As it moves away at the speed of light, it still would leave a trail of light energy coming back at earth. The faster it goes, the longer the light waves (red). No matter how fast it travels through space, that trail of light will be reaching earth without interruption. It might be going 100 times the speed of light, but would still be leaving a trail of light.

So nobody can truly certify how far away a star might be based on observations from earth. In addition to the physics involved, the Bible tells us God spoke it all into existence. It isn't beyond my imagination to believe he could make and speedily send a newly born star millions of light years away instantly simply by authority of his word, leaving us viewing the track record. What light we see of each star that left thousands of years ago is the evidence of the fact the stars are expanding out from us. There is no proven science that could dispute instant creation of stars by God who has left them continually moving into deeper space.

As for dinosaurs and man coexisting, even today people live with some terrible animals such as monster crocodiles, tigers, lions, and other carnivores. Man learns to avoid their immediate homes. After the flood of Genesis there could easily have been difficulty finding released animals that grew up, as those moved away from people that likely would kill them for food. Bears mostly learn to avoid people until forced to search for food near us. There's no good reason to assume dinosaurs also would not have avoided man, having a dread of men put in them by God after the Fall of man.

Fossil remains of dinosaurs are mostly located away from typical human environments, in places like swamps, dense jungles and remote mountains where people couldn't grow crops. They simply lived by the same dread most wild animals today live by for survival.

 

[Miri]

I posted this a while back on another thread, for those who believe in
evolution/old earth, it would be interesting to hear how this fits in with
your theory's.


I came across this a while back and I've never noticed it before.
The realm was created, then 3 days later the ruler was created.

So day 1 light was created
day 4 the ruler of it was created is sun, moon, stars,

day 2 sky and oceans, then day 5 birds and fish,

day 3 dry land, then day 6 animals and people.

I found this really interesting as Jesus was in the tomb 3 days and
Jonah in the whale 3 days etc. Was this to show Jesus was now the ruler
over the realm, over all things etc when he rose from the dead.

The ultimate 3 is in 1 John 5 there are three that bear witness in heaven
the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.



One thing which always seems to get left out of these discussions, is God
is outside of time and space as we perceive it. He is the Alpha and the Omega.
He is eternal.

We are like Lego brick people trying to look up at a Lego brick sky, sun stars etc
and trying to work out how big the universe is and where did the bricks come from.
Or using the biblical term we are like the grass which is here today and gone
tomorrow.


Picking and choosing what bits of the bible to believe, is a slippery slope. If as
a human being with limited strength and resources, I can build a wall in a
day, then why can't God create the universe in 6 days. If anything the question
we should ask is why did he take so long.

Oh the earlier comments from bowman that Eve grew up because she was
"brought to Adam". This is pure opinion without any evidence. The bible says
Adam was put in a deep sleep, it is therefore entirely plausible that God brought
Eve to Adam once he had woken up! Just had to comment on this as I've never
heard such a lot of hokom in my life.



Isaiah 40:12,21-23 NKJV
[12] Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with
a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains
in scales And the hills in a balance? [21] Have you not known? Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the
foundations of the earth? [22] It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And
its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. [23] He brings the princes to nothing;
He makes the judges of the earth useless

Psalm 8:3-4 NKJV
[3] When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars,
which You have ordained, [4] What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son
of man that You visit him?

Revelation 6:14 NKJV
[14] Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and
island was moved out of its place.


Psalm 19:1 NKJV
[1] The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Isaiah 48:13 NKJV
[13] Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched
out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.


Isaiah 64:8 NKJV
[8] But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all
we are the work of Your hand.


Psalm 95:4-5 NKJV
[4] In His hand are the deep places of the earth; The heights of the hills are His also.
[5] The sea is His, for He made it; And His hands formed the dry land.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Bowman, you stand up for the Koran so often, I'm starting to think you're a Muslim pretending to be a Christian. And your hatred for biblical creationists is noted and not very Christian. Grow up. You should've been banned a long time ago.

I keep wondering myself how he is still here..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Studying the Koran has made me a stronger Christian.

Now, I can defend my faith more than ever before when challenged by followers of islam...





So...

Since, I'm not Jewish, am I also an anti-Semitic and a bigot?

Any other names you want to call me because we share a different worldview?

well lets see.

You think Satan is bound

Which means you must believe in replacement theology.

Which means you believe in a man made anti-Semite doctrine of end times.

So yeah...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The laws of physics are being used more these days to limit earth's age to thousands of years, not millions or billions. For you to be right would require reversibility of entropy, defying the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. To remain stable, the energy of earth out have to be equal to incoming energy from outside earth. Incoming energy is far less than energy changed to heat and magnetism, making life on the surface possible. There you have a short explanation of why earth's magnetic field must deteriorate, and can't possibly restore itself.

There is nothing that can defeat the Church. We can suffer persecution, while God will not let us face more than we can endure.

Take heart. Christian scientists, and even many secular scientists are seeing the fact of Biblical creation, and the necessity of there being but a literal day between each step God took during that first week during which this planet revolved 7 times. For instance, God didn't have to form man from the soil, then wait a few million years for Adam to be able to be human. He is God, he is almighty, he is sovereign over his creation, and had/has not had to tell us a fable to learn truth about our origin.

The "Gap Theory" some insist was a period of billions of years long, was offered as a compromise by preachers who were overwhelmed by Darwin and others, the Church having no satisfactory answer other than the Bible. All that has changed.

Jesus (and the apostles) endorsed Genesis, and is the one our salvation is based upon. The is the truth, and cannot lie.

I remember the first time I heard the gap theory. I could answer where dinosours came from. Why the earth was so old. but man was so young. All these questions I had from science class I could not answer..

That's what we get when we lower our standards, and do not stand tight on our basic tenants.. We make things up to make us feel Good.

 

[kodiak]

Re: What a joke...

Still waiting for you to directly address me with your so-called evidence...

It has been put right in front of you multiple times....but you dont even see it...or you do and are ignoring it, so have a good day

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: What a joke...

It has been put right in front of you multiple times....but you dont even see it...or you do and are ignoring it, so have a good day

With people like Bowman, You can post evidence till your blue in the face. if he does not agree with it, He will keep asking you to post evidence.

It is a waste of time.

 

[Dan_473]

The Triune God is who created and formed Adam & Eve, thus, it is fitting that this same God was their parent.


And Yahweh Elohim built (way·yi·ḇen) the side which He had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her (way·ḇi·’e·hā) to the man. And the man said, This now at last( hap·pa·‘am) is bone from my bones, and flesh from my flesh. For this shall be called Woman, because this has been taken out of man. (Gen 2.22 – 23)


As the first human clone, three things in these two passages indicate that Eve was created as a child needing to be raised separate from Adam before she was presented back as an age-appropriate mate.


· The Hebrew verb ‘banah’, employed for the creation of Eve, carries with it the meaning to ‘have children’ and ‘obtain children’.

· The Hebrew verb ‘bo’ informs the reader that after Eve was created from Adam, she then had to be brought back to Adam because she was not with Adam.If Eve had been created as a same-age-adult as Adam, then why would Adam have not woken up with Eve by his side to begin with?

· The exclamation ‘hap·pa·‘am’ (at last!) by Adam indicates that he had been waiting for his mate for a very long time.‘Paam’ carries with it the definition of ‘annual’ and ‘time’, indicating long duration.

thanks! so, it sounds like God forms adam and eve as children, though not as babies. if that's the case, then God is forming something new which appears old than it is.

 

[Dan_473]

John 2 marks this event as a miracle....not deception.

well, I'm not sure that something couldn't be both a miracle and a deception...

but assuming it's not a deception, it would seem then that the best way to view the story is that Jesus makes real wine out of water.

real wine has the appearance of being aged, so it would be a good possible parallel with making a universe that appears aged.

 

[Dan_473]

Again...

That is why Einstein's Relativity is so vitally important to understand....it does not matter what your vantage point is...the speed of light ALWAYS remains the same.

suppose the vantage point moves, and the speed of light changes. how would one calculate the speed of light?

Your smart phone uses relativity in order to work. Is your phone on the move?

yes, my phone is on the move... it's also working in the present time. I don't doubt that Relativity gives predicable results in the present time.

the question is were things different in the past.

suppose several laws of physics were different in the past. how would one know which ones were different, using only present observable findings?

 

[Dan_473]

Even scripture talks about the fixity of the laws of nature.

sounds interesting! details, plzzzz

 

[Dan_473]

The answer to this is staring right at you. Look into the sky at night. Some of those stars are so far away that their light takes more than 10k years to reach your eyesight. How long do you think the human race would have survived had we lived at the same time as dinosaurs? You would have been a tasty snack for T-Rex.

how has your position impacted your interpretation of scripture?

 

[Dan_473]

You will find plenty of actual science, and Wisdom, at ICR.org (Institute for Creation Research) to settle the issue of evolution and old earth age, then move on to other issues.

skimming an article at irc.org, Earth's Young Magnetic Field | The Institute for Creation Research

I found this

"Since the early 1970s it has been widely known and published that the earth’s magnetic field is decaying exponentially."

but I couldn't find a place in the article where the writer says what date the magnetic field yields for the earth.





the question in the op,

"what dates are arrived at with proper carbon-dating etc?"

is what really interests me, though of course we would change that to "proper measurements of the magnetic field."

 

[Dan_473]

True science backs up the Genesis account of creation and the flood, the beginning only about 6,000 years ago.

do you know of things that actually point to the 6,000 year date? there's lots of stuff about how the billions of years must be wrong... but things that put the date at 6,000?

 

[DP]

I can see that as a possibility.

then going with that idea, "science" couldn't be used to support young earth ideas. or undermine old earth ideas.

You hit it on the nail with that. Can't completely rely on the carbon dating process, it's only an assumption tool.

What can we rely on then? God's Word as written, and God's Word shows that this earth is very ancient.

The 6,000 year old idea actually came from an assumption too. In bishop Ussher's 17th century work History of The World, the time of the man Adam in God's Garden is as far back as he could go to using God's Word from the time of Christ to Adam per all the begats and such. He dated the time of the man Adam in God's Garden as 4004 B.C. Problem with that is that's not proof of how old the earth is; it's proof of how far back it was when God formed the man Adam in His Garden.

Then others took that 4004 B.C. date from Ussher's book, and based on modern times added roughly 2,000 years to it and presto, saying the earth is only 6,000 years old.