Forgiveness - Why do we find it so hard?

[Willie-T]

Everything I've read here doesn't explain a lot of verses.

Explain Matthew 18 where if someone doesn't listen and they keep sinning against us, we are to take two or three others and also the church at some point. The point of the passage is that if they don't listen, we are to let them be like publicans and tax collectors and Jews had no dealings with publicans or tax collectors. I was tickled at my church that they actually said we could do it because the rest of the Christian church says we can't.

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Another verse they say is to forgive as God has forgiven us. How has God forgiven us? Did we repent? Did we confess our sins to Jesus? Did we tell Jesus we were wrong?

I have a relative who says, I can't love you because you are a Christian.
It is also unsafe to be threatened with lawsuits, to have family members victims of identity theft and to be with people who are going to use and abuse you.

This is the reader's digest version. There is more involved.

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

"Put away" actually means "lift up and out".

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

You have pastors reducing sin to a misunderstanding or always teaching that we should forgive because we're wrong but the Bible says to put away that wicked person. Following Paul would split some churches and it would sound like forgiveness but how can I forgive someone who isn't wrong? If they don't admit they are wrong then what do I have to forgive them for? When you came to Christ, did you confess your sins? Did Christ forgive you? Then how am I supposed to forgive as Christ forgave me?

You have to first figure out just how Christ forgave you.

 

[Chuckt]

You have to first figure out just how Christ forgave you.

I did.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Other people wish to harm me but don't wish to confess their sin because they feel they have done nothing wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

Everything I've read here doesn't explain a lot of verses.

Forgiveness Jesus is talking about is personal sin done to you. It is talking about being judgemental against another because of hurt you have in your heart. It is related to this area alone.

Dealing with a christian who is caught in sin but refuses to repent of it, is about standards of acceptable behaviour within the body of believers. As a fellowship we are commited to walking in openness and communion with the Lord. This is only possible if we agree to walk in righteousness. To accept rebellion with the group, is to deny this fellowship so needs to be dealt with and confronted. The ultimate reason is sin destroys, corrupts, brings down those affected by it, so needs isolating and working through. If you give up at this level, you have just compromised the whole gospel.

Forgiving people who refuse to accept their sin. You are admiting the pain the action caused and getting healing of the pain. How the sinner deals with it themselves is their problem not yours.

 

[coby]

Everything I've read here doesn't explain a lot of verses.

Explain Matthew 18 where if someone doesn't listen and they keep sinning against us, we are to take two or three others and also the church at some point. The point of the passage is that if they don't listen, we are to let them be like publicans and tax collectors and Jews had no dealings with publicans or tax collectors. I was tickled at my church that they actually said we could do it because the rest of the Christian church says we can't.

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Another verse they say is to forgive as God has forgiven us. How has God forgiven us? Did we repent? Did we confess our sins to Jesus? Did we tell Jesus we were wrong?

I have a relative who says, I can't love you because you are a Christian.
It is also unsafe to be threatened with lawsuits, to have family members victims of identity theft and to be with people who are going to use and abuse you.

This is the reader's digest version. There is more involved.

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

"Put away" actually means "lift up and out".

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

You have pastors reducing sin to a misunderstanding or always teaching that we should forgive because we're wrong but the Bible says to put away that wicked person. Following Paul would split some churches and it would sound like forgiveness but how can I forgive someone who isn't wrong? If they don't admit they are wrong then what do I have to forgive them for? When you came to Christ, did you confess your sins? Did Christ forgive you? Then how am I supposed to forgive as Christ forgave me?

Treat them like a tax collector: so? We have to forgive everyone.
I think only the apostles had the authority to not forgive someone. Who you forgive they are forgiven, who you don't forgive they're not forgiven.

Matthew 5
love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h]*45*that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.*46*For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

 

[Chuckt]

Forgiveness Jesus is talking about is personal sin done to you. It is talking about being judgemental against another because of hurt you have in your heart. It is related to this area alone.

Dealing with a christian who is caught in sin but refuses to repent of it, is about standards of acceptable behaviour within the body of believers. As a fellowship we are commited to walking in openness and communion with the Lord. This is only possible if we agree to walk in righteousness. To accept rebellion with the group, is to deny this fellowship so needs to be dealt with and confronted. The ultimate reason is sin destroys, corrupts, brings down those affected by it, so needs isolating and working through. If you give up at this level, you have just compromised the whole gospel.

Forgiving people who refuse to accept their sin. You are admiting the pain the action caused and getting healing of the pain. How the sinner deals with it themselves is their problem not yours.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm not being judgmental or it is because I have hurt in my heart.

John 18:23 "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"

Jesus didn't always turn the other cheek and this verse has done wonderful work for victim's rights because Jesus pointed to their sins and didn't just forgive them.

If someone ordained in your church was to hurt children, would you forgive them or call the police and put them out?

 

[coby]

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm not being judgmental or it is because I have hurt in my heart.

John 18:23 "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"

Jesus didn't always turn the other cheek and this verse has done wonderful work for victim's rights because Jesus pointed to their sins and didn't just forgive them.

If someone ordained in your church was to hurt children, would you forgive them or call the police and put them out?

I think both.

 

[Chuckt]

Treat them like a tax collector: so? We have to forgive everyone.
I think only the apostles had the authority to not forgive someone. Who you forgive they are forgiven, who you don't forgive they're not forgiven.

Matthew 5
love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h]*45*that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.*46*For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

That isn't true.

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus said John 20:23 to his disciples. What is a disciple? Am I a disciple? Should I just remit sins to people because I have to forgive them or do I tell people their sins are retained? Telling someone their sins is retained is unforgiveness. If you had to forgive everyone's sins, what you are telling them is that their sins are remitted and that would be lying to them.

 

[PeterJens]

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm not being judgmental or it is because I have hurt in my heart.

John 18:23 "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"

Jesus didn't always turn the other cheek and this verse has done wonderful work for victim's rights because Jesus pointed to their sins and didn't just forgive them.

If someone ordained in your church was to hurt children, would you forgive them or call the police and put them out?

Forgiveness is about sin done against me. If someone assaulted anybody, they have to face justice and the police.
The issue would be was there any evidence, or is it just slander. The issues about forgiveness are the for the person hurt and in need not third parties.

 

[coby]

That isn't true.

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus said John 20:23 to his disciples. What is a disciple? Am I a disciple? Should I just remit sins to people because I have to forgive them or do I tell people their sins are retained? Telling someone their sins is retained is unforgiveness. If you had to forgive everyone's sins, what you are telling them is that their sins are remitted and that would be lying to them.

No you just forgive someone. That doesn't mean if they don't repent that their sins are retained. That can happen later because you forgave them and prayed for them.
It's not about if they ask God to forgive them, just the person they sinned against has forgiven them. An unbeliever can sin against you and you forgive that person, but that doesn't make them saved. You still have to tell them they have to repent.

 

[coby]

That isn't true.

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus said John 20:23 to his disciples. What is a disciple? Am I a disciple? Should I just remit sins to people because I have to forgive them or do I tell people their sins are retained? Telling someone their sins is retained is unforgiveness. If you had to forgive everyone's sins, what you are telling them is that their sins are remitted and that would be lying to them.

I think only the apostles could do that with the pharisees or something who couldn't be forgiven anymore anyway. There was one preacher who got mad when someone came in his house with a Newspaper. He didn't want that filth in his house. He said Hitler and Mussolini will be soon in hell. Maybe such cases in that position he could just do that.
I don't think God wants christians to forgive the antichrist, but they do forgive ISIS members that kill them and some got saved because of that.

 

[Chuckt]

Forgiveness is about sin done against me. If someone assaulted anybody, they have to face justice and the police.
The issue would be was there any evidence, or is it just slander. The issues about forgiveness are the for the person hurt and in need not third parties.

And how is that forgiveness?

 

[Chuckt]

I think only the apostles could do that with the pharisees or something who couldn't be forgiven anymore anyway. There was one preacher who got mad when someone came in his house with a Newspaper. He didn't want that filth in his house. He said Hitler and Mussolini will be soon in hell. Maybe such cases in that position he could just do that.
I don't think God wants christians to forgive the antichrist, but they do forgive ISIS members that kill them and some got saved because of that.

I require Bible verses. I don't accept what people "think". Maybe what we think is wrong. Maybe we don't think. If we thought, we would have verses to back it up.

 

[Chuckt]

No you just forgive someone. That doesn't mean if they don't repent that their sins are retained. That can happen later because you forgave them and prayed for them.
It's not about if they ask God to forgive them, just the person they sinned against has forgiven them. An unbeliever can sin against you and you forgive that person, but that doesn't make them saved. You still have to tell them they have to repent.

Coby,

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If someone doesn't believe, they are condemned already. You can't forgive them. That is the point. They have to take a step and repent and when they repent, they turn to God so they can believe in Him. You can't overrule God and say they are forgiven.

Therefore, you can't forgive them of their sin because they retain their sin.

That is unforgiveness.

Chuck

 

[coby]

I require Bible verses. I don't accept what people "think". Maybe what we think is wrong. Maybe we don't think. If we thought, we would have verses to back it up.

You already quoted it. That's the only one.

 

[coby]

Coby,

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If someone doesn't believe, they are condemned already. You can't forgive them. That is the point. They have to take a step and repent and when they repent, they turn to God so they can believe in Him. You can't overrule God and say they are forgiven.

Therefore, you can't forgive them of their sin because they retain their sin.

That is unforgiveness.

Chuck

But we have to forgive those that sin against us. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us, so it's possible. How can you pray for someone that persecutes you which we have to if you hold a grudge against them? I can't pray for someone I haven't forgiven.

 

[Chuckt]

But we have to forgive those that sin against us. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us, so it's possible. How can you pray for someone that persecutes you which we have to if you hold a grudge against them? I can't pray for someone I haven't forgiven.

In other words, you will never have church discipline because you have forgiven someone.

Forgiveness is walking with people that hurt us so non repentant people can not cooperate with forgiveness.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you."

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

It is hard for me to teach it to those who have never learned.

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[Chuckt]

But we have to forgive those that sin against us. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us, so it's possible. How can you pray for someone that persecutes you which we have to if you hold a grudge against them? I can't pray for someone I haven't forgiven.

Why do you have locks on your doors instead of practicing free love and allowing everyone to come in?

There are people who live their lives as serial abusers and a Christian psychologist in the church wrote a book called "Bounderies" and perhaps everyone has heard of that book.

The Bible does talk about having boundaries because I read parts of the book. Boundaries or rules could sound like grudges but it is really boundaries.

Non-forgiveness against serial abusers is saying, "you can go no further". If forgiveness is enablement then you are really guilty of doing the wrong thing:

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

It is wrong to enable someone and say, "I forgive you" because what you're saying is, "you have permission to hurt me again and again and again."

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

If they say, "I repent" then I have to forgive them and I will forgive them. You're saying "forgiveness" to those who aren't making a mistake but you are giving forgiveness to those who do not repent.

 

[coby]

In other words, you will never have church discipline because you have forgiven someone.

Forgiveness is walking with people that hurt us so non repentant people can not cooperate with forgiveness.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you."

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

It is hard for me to teach it to those who have never learned.

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

That was love from Paul to hand him over to satan. Because of that he got saved later. There can be church discipline if you have forgiven someone. Not saying anything and let them go on is not love.

 

[Chuckt]

That was love from Paul to hand him over to satan. Because of that he got saved later. There can be church discipline if you have forgiven someone. Not saying anything and let them go on is not love.

No. It was love and unforgiveness.

 

[coby]

Why do you have locks on your doors instead of practicing free love and allowing everyone to come in?

There are people who live their lives as serial abusers and a Christian psychologist in the church wrote a book called "Bounderies" and perhaps everyone has heard of that book.

The Bible does talk about having boundaries because I read parts of the book. Boundaries or rules could sound like grudges but it is really boundaries.

Non-forgiveness against serial abusers is saying, "you can go no further". If forgiveness is enablement then you are really guilty of doing the wrong thing:

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

It is wrong to enable someone and say, "I forgive you" because what you're saying is, "you have permission to hurt me again and again and again."

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

If they say, "I repent" then I have to forgive them and I will forgive them. You're saying "forgiveness" to those who aren't making a mistake but you are giving forgiveness to those who do not repent.

Forgiveness is not that you have no boundaries. You can forgive someone but if they want to rape you you don't have to drink coffee with them. Still you can pray that they get saved while there is no contact.