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Here is a scriptural look at "does the Holy Spirit convict the believer of sin".... like we have been led to believe from some of our church teachings in the past?...... look at the video below..only 6 minutes long..
..when you see the finished work of our Lord Jesus for us.. you will fall deeper in love with Him and you will live a holier life - because you will know who you are in Him because of His life in you!
Watch the "they" and the "you" in this scripture and you can see that Jesus is talking about 2 different groups of people.
John 16:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; ( the world )
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; ( the disciples AKA believers in Christ )
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
[video=youtube;QfNxVy4sDfI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfNxVy4sDfI[/video]
..when you see the finished work of our Lord Jesus for us.. you will fall deeper in love with Him and you will live a holier life - because you will know who you are in Him because of His life in you!
Watch the "they" and the "you" in this scripture and you can see that Jesus is talking about 2 different groups of people.
John 16:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; ( the world )
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; ( the disciples AKA believers in Christ )
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
[video=youtube;QfNxVy4sDfI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfNxVy4sDfI[/video]
The video is just more 'grace' believer lies.
It's pretty obvious that the holy spirit convicts (exposes and proves wrong) believers of sin. Then the conscience judges and condemns.
The holy spirit convicts the world of sin
Jesus through the holy spirit convicts believers of their sin
Reprove and rebuke in the verses above are the same word.
Reprove/Rebuke
G1651 ἐλέγχω elegcho (el-eng'-kho) v.
1. to confute, admonish
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω (elénchō)
2. In the NT the use is restricted. With the accusative of person it means “to show people their sins and summon them to repentance,” either privately (Mt. 18:15) or congregationally (1 Tim. 5:20). The Holy Spirit does this (Jn. 16:8), as also Christ does both now (Rev. 3:19) and at the parousia (Jude 15). No one can do it to Jesus himself (Jn. 8:46). Sinners experience this exposure when faced by the prophetic call (Lk. 3:19), divine instruction (Heb. 12:5), or the law (Jms. 2:9). perí is used to denote the fault (Lk. 3:19), with hóti for elaboration (Jn. 16:9ff.). Correction as well as exposure or conviction is implied; the corresponding action is élenxis (2 Pet. 2:16) or elegmós (2 Tim. 3:16).
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains
33.417 ἐλέγχω; ἔλεγξις, εως f; ἐλεγμός, οῦ m: to state that someone has done wrong, with the implication that there is adequate proof of such wrongdoing—‘to rebuke, to reproach, rebuke, reproach.’
ἐλέγχω: ὁ δὲ Ηρῴδης ὁ τετραάρχης, ἐλεγχόμενος υ’π̓ αυ’τοῦ περὶ Ηρῳδιάδος ‘Herod the tetrarch was rebuked by him because of Herodias’ Lk 3:19; μᾶλλον δὲ καὶ ἐλέγχετε ‘but rather rebuke them’ Eph 5:11.
ἔλεγξις: ὃς μισθὸν ἀδικίας ἠγάπησεν ἔλεγξιν δὲ ἔσχεν ἰδίας παρανομίας ‘who loved the money he would get for doing wrong and was reproached for his transgression’ 2 Pe 2:15–16.
ἐλεγμός: πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος καὶ ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν, πρὸς ἐλεγμόν ‘all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for rebuking’ 2 Tm 3:16.
A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω (aor. pass. ἠλέγχθην ) show (someone his) fault or error, convince (someone) of (his) fault or error; show (something) up for what it is; prove guilty, condemn; rebuke, reprove
Synonyms of the New Testament, 9th ed.
... ἐλέγχειν is a much more pregnant word; it is so to rebuke another, with such effectual wielding of the victorious arms of the truth, as to bring him, if not always to a confession, yet at least to a conviction, of his sin (Job 5:17; Prov. 19:25), just as in juristic Greek, ἐλέγχειν is not merely to reply to, but to refute, an opponent.
... ἔλεγχος implies not merely the charge, but the truth of the charge, and further the manifestation of the truth of the charge; nay more than all this, very often also the acknowledgment, if not outward, yet inward, of its truth on the part of the accused; it being the glorious prerogative of the truth in its highest operation not merely to assert itself, and to silence the adversary, but to silence him by convincing him of his error.
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
CONVICT (including the KJV, “convince”)
1. elencho (ἐλέγχω, 1651) signifies (a) “to convict, confute, refute,” usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Matt. 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of “convicting” of sin, John 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Titus 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jas. 2:9; some texts have the verb in John 8:9; (b) “to reprove,” 1 Cor. 14:24, RV (for KJV, “convince”), for the unbeliever is there viewed as being reproved for, or “convicted” of, his sinful state; so in Luke 3:19; it is used of reproving works, John 3:20; Eph. 5:11, 13; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:13; 2:15; all these speak of reproof by word of mouth. In Heb. 12:5 and Rev. 3:19, the word is used of reproving by action. See FAULT, REBUKE, REPROVE.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty obvious that the holy spirit convicts (exposes and proves wrong) believers of sin. Then the conscience judges and condemns.
The holy spirit convicts the world of sin
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8
Jesus through the holy spirit convicts believers of their sin
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:19
Reprove and rebuke in the verses above are the same word.
Reprove/Rebuke
G1651 ἐλέγχω elegcho (el-eng'-kho) v.
1. to confute, admonish
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω (elénchō)
2. In the NT the use is restricted. With the accusative of person it means “to show people their sins and summon them to repentance,” either privately (Mt. 18:15) or congregationally (1 Tim. 5:20). The Holy Spirit does this (Jn. 16:8), as also Christ does both now (Rev. 3:19) and at the parousia (Jude 15). No one can do it to Jesus himself (Jn. 8:46). Sinners experience this exposure when faced by the prophetic call (Lk. 3:19), divine instruction (Heb. 12:5), or the law (Jms. 2:9). perí is used to denote the fault (Lk. 3:19), with hóti for elaboration (Jn. 16:9ff.). Correction as well as exposure or conviction is implied; the corresponding action is élenxis (2 Pet. 2:16) or elegmós (2 Tim. 3:16).
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains
33.417 ἐλέγχω; ἔλεγξις, εως f; ἐλεγμός, οῦ m: to state that someone has done wrong, with the implication that there is adequate proof of such wrongdoing—‘to rebuke, to reproach, rebuke, reproach.’
ἐλέγχω: ὁ δὲ Ηρῴδης ὁ τετραάρχης, ἐλεγχόμενος υ’π̓ αυ’τοῦ περὶ Ηρῳδιάδος ‘Herod the tetrarch was rebuked by him because of Herodias’ Lk 3:19; μᾶλλον δὲ καὶ ἐλέγχετε ‘but rather rebuke them’ Eph 5:11.
ἔλεγξις: ὃς μισθὸν ἀδικίας ἠγάπησεν ἔλεγξιν δὲ ἔσχεν ἰδίας παρανομίας ‘who loved the money he would get for doing wrong and was reproached for his transgression’ 2 Pe 2:15–16.
ἐλεγμός: πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος καὶ ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν, πρὸς ἐλεγμόν ‘all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for rebuking’ 2 Tm 3:16.
A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament
ἐλέγχω (aor. pass. ἠλέγχθην ) show (someone his) fault or error, convince (someone) of (his) fault or error; show (something) up for what it is; prove guilty, condemn; rebuke, reprove
Synonyms of the New Testament, 9th ed.
... ἐλέγχειν is a much more pregnant word; it is so to rebuke another, with such effectual wielding of the victorious arms of the truth, as to bring him, if not always to a confession, yet at least to a conviction, of his sin (Job 5:17; Prov. 19:25), just as in juristic Greek, ἐλέγχειν is not merely to reply to, but to refute, an opponent.
... ἔλεγχος implies not merely the charge, but the truth of the charge, and further the manifestation of the truth of the charge; nay more than all this, very often also the acknowledgment, if not outward, yet inward, of its truth on the part of the accused; it being the glorious prerogative of the truth in its highest operation not merely to assert itself, and to silence the adversary, but to silence him by convincing him of his error.
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
CONVICT (including the KJV, “convince”)
1. elencho (ἐλέγχω, 1651) signifies (a) “to convict, confute, refute,” usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Matt. 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of “convicting” of sin, John 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Titus 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jas. 2:9; some texts have the verb in John 8:9; (b) “to reprove,” 1 Cor. 14:24, RV (for KJV, “convince”), for the unbeliever is there viewed as being reproved for, or “convicted” of, his sinful state; so in Luke 3:19; it is used of reproving works, John 3:20; Eph. 5:11, 13; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:13; 2:15; all these speak of reproof by word of mouth. In Heb. 12:5 and Rev. 3:19, the word is used of reproving by action. See FAULT, REBUKE, REPROVE.[/QUOTE]
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The word " convict/reprove/convince/expose" in question has many meanings attached to it as well.
It is only used 1 time in KJV as "convict"....it is used more often with the word "to reprove/rebuke/convince"...the word needs to be looked at in the "context" that it is used...
It is a revealing of things.....to the world the Holy Spirit reveals/convinces/expose their sin of unbelief in Jesus..
.to the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as an Advocate.
John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;
Here are a few examples of the same exact word ( convict/convince/rebuke ) used in other scriptures...as one can clearly see..this word has many uses depending on the context
1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
John 8:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
English Words used in KJV: reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
It is only used 1 time in KJV as "convict"....it is used more often with the word "to reprove/rebuke/convince"...the word needs to be looked at in the "context" that it is used...
It is a revealing of things.....to the world the Holy Spirit reveals/convinces/expose their sin of unbelief in Jesus..
.to the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as an Advocate.
John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;
Here are a few examples of the same exact word ( convict/convince/rebuke ) used in other scriptures...as one can clearly see..this word has many uses depending on the context
1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
John 8:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
English Words used in KJV: reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
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We need to be careful when discussing/debating what is termed hypergrace or exagerated grace. One thing is that they have a lot of good things to say ragrding grace.. we can all agree that it is all of grace..even faith is a gift of grace.
We all should believe that we stand in the already but not yet, in other words that although we await glorification we have 'in Christ' all the benefits of grace now. We cannot seperate Christ and the benefits of His good news as Jesus is the gospel, the benefits being -reconciliation, justification, adoption etc etc (in no particualr order).
The benefits come with our union in Christ not through Christ but 'in Him' [union].
We shouldn't be focusing on our sin but our life in Christ, who bore the burden of our guilt of sin and took upon himself God's wrath for sin, for His sheep. That is why and how we are free from the burden of sin. In Christ we are free from that natural inclination of being 'continually evil'. The chains have been broken.
So alot of what the hyper grace guys say is actually good. However, what I do see is that those of a hyper grace persuasion seem to have it in their heads that those not of the same persuausion are legalists and don't believe in the freedom Christ has wrought for us. There are of course legalists who still believe that its what they have to do that earns them merit. I would suggest that we all have had legalist tendancies at some time or other....and on the other hand a tendancy to antinomianism (no law/rules).
The differences are really in the areas of obedience, the believers sin, repentance snd confession. And what these terms mean. An example would be -did Jesus free you from following any rules/law (I am refering to moral rules/law), if he did not then we are free'd to uphold the law in Christ. If not, then what is your morality base? and the list goes on and on.
Since Jesus is the gospel, the two can't be seperated, this then makes it an important issue, it is not a new issue, its an old one with a new slant. Sine Jesus is the gospel, who revealed His gospel himself then it is an issue even on the person and work of Christ.
We all should believe that we stand in the already but not yet, in other words that although we await glorification we have 'in Christ' all the benefits of grace now. We cannot seperate Christ and the benefits of His good news as Jesus is the gospel, the benefits being -reconciliation, justification, adoption etc etc (in no particualr order).
The benefits come with our union in Christ not through Christ but 'in Him' [union].
We shouldn't be focusing on our sin but our life in Christ, who bore the burden of our guilt of sin and took upon himself God's wrath for sin, for His sheep. That is why and how we are free from the burden of sin. In Christ we are free from that natural inclination of being 'continually evil'. The chains have been broken.
So alot of what the hyper grace guys say is actually good. However, what I do see is that those of a hyper grace persuasion seem to have it in their heads that those not of the same persuausion are legalists and don't believe in the freedom Christ has wrought for us. There are of course legalists who still believe that its what they have to do that earns them merit. I would suggest that we all have had legalist tendancies at some time or other....and on the other hand a tendancy to antinomianism (no law/rules).
The differences are really in the areas of obedience, the believers sin, repentance snd confession. And what these terms mean. An example would be -did Jesus free you from following any rules/law (I am refering to moral rules/law), if he did not then we are free'd to uphold the law in Christ. If not, then what is your morality base? and the list goes on and on.
Since Jesus is the gospel, the two can't be seperated, this then makes it an important issue, it is not a new issue, its an old one with a new slant. Sine Jesus is the gospel, who revealed His gospel himself then it is an issue even on the person and work of Christ.
This and the video you posted are good examples of the poor job 'grace' believers do expounding on scripture. John 16:8 says that the spirit convicts the world.
On one hand, 'grace' believers say that John 16:8 means that the spirit doesn't convict believers of sin because that verse is talking about the world; then on the other hand, they say that the spirit convicts believers of righteousness, even though John 16:8 is referring to the world.
Then based on this inconsistent mode of interpretation, they teach that the holy spirit doesn't convict believers of their sin, but does convict them of their righteousness.
And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8
On one hand, 'grace' believers say that John 16:8 means that the spirit doesn't convict believers of sin because that verse is talking about the world; then on the other hand, they say that the spirit convicts believers of righteousness, even though John 16:8 is referring to the world.
Then based on this inconsistent mode of interpretation, they teach that the holy spirit doesn't convict believers of their sin, but does convict them of their righteousness.
Hi HeRose
Although I agree with what you are basically saying HeRose, there is a difference between the unbeliever and the believer, one is guilty and the other is not..in the sense of original sin and their own sin.
As believers we are righteouss the Holy Spirit does not need to convict us of that, we just need to remind ourselves of it daily, i.e. preach the gospel to ourselves daily. However, the spirit does convict the believer of sin not in the sense of that original guilt but of our committment to persevere in the familal relationship with the father in christ, A commitment to obedience and Holiness.
Where the hyper grace go wrong is that they suggest we believe in saying such things we mean we are losing our salvation, this is just utter nonsense, Once you are Christs you are always Christs. However, we are not to be like the antinomians (no law/rules) and not be faithfully obedient in response to God's gracious hand to us.
Although I agree with what you are basically saying HeRose, there is a difference between the unbeliever and the believer, one is guilty and the other is not..in the sense of original sin and their own sin.
As believers we are righteouss the Holy Spirit does not need to convict us of that, we just need to remind ourselves of it daily, i.e. preach the gospel to ourselves daily. However, the spirit does convict the believer of sin not in the sense of that original guilt but of our committment to persevere in the familal relationship with the father in christ, A commitment to obedience and Holiness.
Where the hyper grace go wrong is that they suggest we believe in saying such things we mean we are losing our salvation, this is just utter nonsense, Once you are Christs you are always Christs. However, we are not to be like the antinomians (no law/rules) and not be faithfully obedient in response to God's gracious hand to us.
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I think that John 16:8 just means the world in general; both believers and unbelievers together. I think Jesus was simply juxtaposing the worldly order with the heavenly order, and was not referring to just unbelievers by calling them the world.
Case in point: When I was a new believer, reading the bible brought me under lots of conviction of sin. That's consistent with John 16:8 because I am a member of the cosmos (κόσμος), i.e., the orderly arrangement of the natural world.
Case in point: When I was a new believer, reading the bible brought me under lots of conviction of sin. That's consistent with John 16:8 because I am a member of the cosmos (κόσμος), i.e., the orderly arrangement of the natural world.