A believer is not sinless., A believer is guiltless...

[LeeUK]

We all know that Grace is a free gift that we recieve by repentance, therefore I think the question should be...Can we lose salvation for lack of works?

I believe that if we truly repent and become a new creation we MUST live as Christ says we should. Hence the term "Christ"-ian. Is it a sin to not feed the hungry when you are in a position to do so? Or to not clothe the poor when you are in a position to do so? What did Jesus say?

[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: [SUP]42 [/SUP]for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Then they also will answer Him,[SUP][d][/SUP] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ [SUP]45 [/SUP]Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ [SUP]46 [/SUP]And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That actually isn't what is being put forth. Grace believers are secure in their salvation not because of themselves but because of what Jesus did at the cross. VVhether our spirits are incorruptible or not is irrelevant to my faith in Jesus, my Savior. I am saved because of Him, my ignorance on the incorruptibility of my spirit doesn't affect my assurance because my assurance relies on God. It is my faith in Christ that saves me, by His grace. Salvation doesn't result from focusing on identity, rather we gain our identity in the salvation the Lord offers (I.e, made new creations).

That may be your particular interpretation, or version, of 'grace' teachings, but it is not the norm.

 

[psalm6819]

so for this very reason, We must all reject grace, and teach works..

sometimes your irony just tickles me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like they, Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

you would not call a river in egypt an ocean. Stop calling what is not grace, grace..

All you do is confuse people when you do that..

Grace is grace, your attempts to destroy grace teaching is for the birds.. Stop calling what is not grace, grace..

 

[RobbyEarl]

Did God show Nineveh grace? Did He show grace to the fallen Angels? Doe's Satan have grace? The only reason that Israel is shown grace is by the faith of their fathers. Faith in what, the promise of a redeemer. Look Abraham had faith in God that the redeemer would come from his loins. Can you read with a spiritual mind? By faith Joseph said carry my bones to the promised land. BY faith Job said I know my redeemer lives. To OT guy's knew that they were undone and needed a redeemer. They gave sacrifice of bulls and lambs and pigeons . Symbolic of Christ and the cross. Look how Abel offered a Lamb and Cain offered the worst of his fruits. Which was accepted?

As men we want to offer our works and God will not accept the work of flesh. It by God and through God and to God. That is the work of the cross

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That may be your particular interpretation, or version, of 'grace' teachings, but it is not the norm.

rolls eyes.

Grace means unmerited favor based on TRUE faith in Christ, . Anyone who does not teach this, does not teach grace.

your arguments against the only thing which can save us is getting old!

 

[BenFTW]

There are those who say Christians are to rid themselves of sin consciousness, but then they turn around and say they will and do sin, yet with no consciousness of sin, how are they to be made aware of it, or repent of it? I have even been told it is wrong (a sin) to identify as being a sinner! The ridiculousness that comes out of this type of thinking is never ending, it seems. These people contradict themselves all over the place and therefore make no sense. But of course they do not see it. They are blind to their own folly while they are tripping all over themselves.

You have misunderstood what it means to be sin-conscious. They aren't saying to not recognize sin in your life. The problem with sin-consciousness is not a matter of identifying sin, but focusing on sin. For some teachers sin is the entire message and their remedy to sin is the law. This fails. It doesn't work and only buries them in condemnation. The victory found in Christ is tossed aside for morality. This is not how we are sanctified, and replaces the work of the God for self-righteousness.

The idea is to get your eyes off of sin and get them on Jesus ("as beholding in a mirror") to be transformed. He imputed His righteousness to you. You are not a sinner, but a saint, and a child of God washed in the blood of Christ. You are dead to sin and alive unto God. VVhy identify as a sinner when Jesus has taken those shackles off of you? He calls you clean, holy, and irreproachable. You are the child of the King who wishes to continue to be called a pauper.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

In Christ means our position in him through the covenant. That doesn't change unless we apostatize. That position guarantees everlasting freedom from the condemnation of GOD's wrath. This is what Romans 8:1 refers to.

Walking in Christ pertains to our behavior, whether we are obedient to the spirit or to the flesh. Walking in the flesh produces disapproval from GOD and the condemnation of our own heart and conscience. This is what Romans 8:4 refers to.

However, it appears that someone may have modified Romans 8:1 in order to conflate the two.

The New Covenant is written on the tables of our heart by the Spirit of God. And our behavior changes when we are given a new heart and mind and when we are made a new creation in Christ by the Spirit of God. Christ dwells in us by the Spirit. We are enjoined and baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit, and have communion with God by the Spirit.


It all comes down to being born again from above by the Holy Spirit, and thus passing from the power of sin and death, to the power Christ's righteousness working in us unto Eternal Life.

 

[psalm6819]

That may be your particular interpretation, or version, of 'grace' teachings, but it is not the norm.

not Ben's interpretation.... HIS Word confirms HIS grace

 

[FreeNChrist]

You have misunderstood what it means to be sin-conscious. They aren't saying to not recognize sin in your life. The problem with sin-consciousness is not a matter of identifying sin, but focusing on sin. For some teachers sin is the entire message and their remedy to sin is the law. This fails. It doesn't work and only buries them in condemnation. The victory found in Christ is tossed aside for morality. This is not how we are sanctified, and replaces the work of the God for self-righteousness.

The idea is to get your eyes off of sin and get them on Jesus ("as beholding in a mirror") to be transformed. He imputed His righteousness to you. You are not a sinner, but a saint, and a child of God washed in the blood of Christ. You are dead to sin and alive unto God. VVhy identify as a sinner when Jesus has taken those shackles off of you? He calls you clean, holy, and irreproachable. You are the child of the King who wishes to continue to be called a pauper.

Excellent response, Ben.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen..well said..it is the word of His grace that is able to build us up and give us the inheritance that he has for us. it's all by grace through faith in His finished work.

Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

not Ben's interpretation.... HIS Word confirms HIS grace

 

[PeterJens]

The title is walking with Christ is not walking righteousness but not being guilty about the sin you are doing.

Now this is just stupid. I cannot stop stealing, I just see things and I must have them, but God forgives me because I know Him.

This is called hypocracy. This is willful sin, rebellion while claiming you know God.

The truth is hyper-grace is hyper forgiveness, you are forgiven no matter what you do, because morality no longer applies to you. If at any point in your life you could get forgiveness no matter what you do in the future, it is a total denial of what is being in the Kingdom of Heaven, and what is wrong with sin. On this basis I could go, I am forgiven so I can now murder everyone who disagrees with me, and God will forgive me.

Now the hyper-grace hyper forgiveness crowd have not answered this point other than saying ofcourse they would not do this. But this is not refuting the statement it is actually agreeing with it. It is saying in reality is Gods representatives are hypocrites and have not overcome sin. On the day of judgement why should any non-christian be judged for sin and rejected?

Oh they cry because they did not believe in Jesus. But believing in Jesus made zero difference, so it is irrelevant.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The title is walking with Christ is not walking righteousness but not being guilty about the sin you are doing.

Now this is just stupid. I cannot stop stealing, I just see things and I must have them, but God forgives me because I know Him.

This is called hypocracy. This is willful sin, rebellion while claiming you know God.

The truth is hyper-grace is hyper forgiveness, you are forgiven no matter what you do, because morality no longer applies to you. If at any point in your life you could get forgiveness no matter what you do in the future, it is a total denial of what is being in the Kingdom of Heaven, and what is wrong with sin. On this basis I could go, I am forgiven so I can now murder everyone who disagrees with me, and God will forgive me.

Now the hyper-grace hyper forgiveness crowd have not answered this point other than saying ofcourse they would not do this. But this is not refuting the statement it is actually agreeing with it. It is saying in reality is Gods representatives are hypocrites and have not overcome sin. On the day of judgement why should any non-christian be judged for sin and rejected?

Oh they cry because they did not believe in Jesus. But believing in Jesus made zero difference, so it is irrelevant.

Well, of course, you've missed the "Christ in you" part of what it is to be a Christian. But then, Pelagian missed that too.

 

[RobbyEarl]

We are not excluded from sin. To sin is in our power. To say that we cannot sin is not biblical. The cross of Christ gives the freedom from sin of which before were slaves and had no power over it. However our faith in Christ has freed us from the power of sin, meaning that it no longer rules over us. We still sin and it is not imputed to us if we ask forgiveness. For the Holy Spirit now works in us yet we are not perfect. We remain in the flesh.

If our faith is misguided by deceit and placed in something we do the sin nature revives in us and it's end is death. You can omly please God by faith. Faith in what. the finished work of Christ. What can we boast in? We can only Boast in Christ and nothing we do.

 

[PeterJens]

You have misunderstood what it means to be sin-conscious. They aren't saying to not recognize sin in your life. The problem with sin-consciousness is not a matter of identifying sin, but focusing on sin.

Sin consciousness means being conscious or aware of sin. To not be sin-conscious is not to know sin in your life.
The underlying theology as you Ben uphold, is everyones sin is already forgiven even when they sin.

No christian preacher preaches law, they preach walking in the Spirit in obedience to the law of the Spirit.

What we are saying is love of Christ empowers you to be clean, holy, irreproachable.

We do not choose to be called paupers, we walk as child of the Living God.

 

[PeterJens]

Well, of course, you've missed the "Christ in you" part of what it is to be a Christian. But then, Pelagian missed that too.

What are you saying? Because you sin as a sinner while being called a saint, Christ in you makes you righteous?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well, of course, you've missed the "Christ in you" part of what it is to be a Christian. But then, Pelagian missed that too.

LOL. Yes, Pelagian, the artifice of Augustine and company, missed it, but Pelagius, who struggled to thwart the infiltration of Manichean gnosticism into the RCC, didn't miss it at all.

 

[FreeNChrist]

What are you saying? Because you sin as a sinner while being called a saint, Christ in you makes you righteous?

I'm pretty sure what I was saying is exactly what I said. And yes Christ the Righteous One in me makes me righteous.

 

[Ahwatukee]

We are not excluded from sin. To sin is in our power. To say that we cannot sin is not biblical. The cross of Christ gives the freedom from sin of which before were slaves and had no power over it. However our faith in Christ has freed us from the power of sin, meaning that it no longer rules over us. We still sin and it is not imputed to us if we ask forgiveness. For the Holy Spirit now works in us yet we are not perfect. We remain in the flesh.

If our faith is misguided by deceit and placed in something we do the sin nature revives in us and it's end is death. You can omly please God by faith. Faith in what. the finished work of Christ. What can we boast in? We can only Boast in Christ and nothing we do.

Amen to that!

Regarding those in Christ:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

 

[FreeNChrist]

LOL. Yes, Pelagian, the artifice of Augustine and company, missed it, but Pelagius, who struggled to thwart the infiltration of Manichean gnosticism into the RCC, didn't miss it at all.

Spoken like a true Pelagian