Where the apostles righteous - John the Baptist sinless?

[PeterJens]

The original sin doctrine was communicated by Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Why am I condemned? I didn't sin in the garden? Why don't I get a chance? I am just a prototype of Adam and I can't do better than the prototype. Adam acted as the federal head and therefore we all die because Adam sinned.



Romans 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I am using scripture. You are using outside movements to define your theology such as gnosticism and the reformed movement as indicated in your post. I am going by the Bible.

Death entered the world because Adam chose to take responsibility for his choices on himself without communing with God.
That is rebellion and rejection. We inherit this rebellion and lack of communion.

It leads to sin, and hurt. We need communion with the Lord and love to get our perspective. What does Christ bring us?
Not just forgiveness but also the ability to have a relationship.

So what I am saying fulfills the scriptures you are quoting. Without communion we are lost, because the Lord is the source of life, and without that source we will always die.

What the theological concept of inability is to say even when our sin is forgiven and we have communion we cannot walk righteously. But Jesus did, in human from, Moses did, the apostles did etc. Nowhere is sin acceptable. When it appears they have to repent or are thrown out. But somehow the idea you can sin and be accepted has been taken as the normal state which is a denial of the cross and victory. Why? Because it is easier to give up than believe there is such a thing as purity and righteousness.

 

[PeterJens]

We know because the scripture say:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Ofcourse people have sinned past tense, but there is not a certainty for sin the in future.

Why do you think people will be able to walk into the Kingdom of heaven? Will they magically be changed so they now are able to walk righteously while before they stumbled and fell? In reality you need to be able to see Jesus properly and have communion. If you cannot walk properly now, why when you meet Him?

 

[Chuckt]

Death entered the world because Adam chose to take responsibility for his choices on himself without communing with God.
That is rebellion and rejection. We inherit this rebellion and lack of communion.

Adam did communicate. God said:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam was not deceived because he knew what God said because Adam did communicate.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

And you think that God can only forgive sinless people? No. Exodus says God keeps mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin:

[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading"]Exo 34:7[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
You're not sticking to the scriptures.

 

[Chuckt]

Ofcourse people have sinned past tense, but there is not a certainty for sin the in future.

Why do you think people will be able to walk into the Kingdom of heaven? Will they magically be changed so they now are able to walk righteously while before they stumbled and fell? In reality you need to be able to see Jesus properly and have communion. If you cannot walk properly now, why when you meet Him?

Because God will give me a glorified body that has a spirit drive and the old body has a corruptible blood drive.

 

[Joenah]

Hello PeterJens,
i have read many of your posts in several threads and though I don't always totally agree with your views, I like the substance of many of your posts.
Was John the Baptist sinless? Possibly, I mean he was Jesus' cousin. Lol.

Sorry brother, I have to side with the rest on the question of John being sinless.

1. Jesus said that among those born of women, there was none greater than John the Baptist. This means he was not born of the Spirit. Not really sure what this implies... I'm thinking out loud.
2. Jesus had John baptise him, but John said that he needed to be baptised by Jesus. John's was a baptism of repentance from sin.
3. I'm not sure, but could John's question to Jesus from prison about whether he was the "One who was to come, or should we expect someone else?" be considered sin? After all, the bible does say that, " whatever is not of faith is sin."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Adam did communicate. God said:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam was not deceived because he knew what God said because Adam did communicate.

I believe what Peter meant is that at the moment Adam was contemplating the situation that his wife had just disobeyed GOD, for some reason related to the longings of his body and soul, he chose to disobey GOD's word rather than consulting (communing as Peter put it) with GOD on the matter.

 

[nu2see]

----( From the first paragraph of post #2 )----
---------------------------
This is so true. Love is the reason God created us, in love, for love, to love Him and be loved by Him, and we exist all the days of our lives hoping for love, desiring love, believing ourselves unworthy of love, wounded by our own understanding of love.
---------------------------
I'm screaming it ...

LOVE! LOVE! LOVE!

(Sorry, not screaming, just ahhh, what's the word...)

 

[KenAllan]

Everybody is a sinner today. Every person born today is a sinner. Its the Blood of Jesus that has taken away our sins. In the eyes of God we who truly follow Jesus are sinless. This is because when God looks at us He is also looking at His Son Jesus who died for all our sins.

John the Baptist was a sinner. Mary was a sinner.

All those who teach they were people born sinless really have not read the Scriptures for God has clearly said for all have sinned.

 

[4enlightment]

he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Luke 1:15

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
John 15:3

John the baptist did not choose to follow Jesus, he was born as a follower. I assume he walked in righteousness and not sin. Jesus recognised his special status by saying any member of the Kingdom of Heaven would be greater than John the Baptist because they chose to walk with Jesus, John the Baptist did not.

The apostles when they were actually following Jesus, they were "clean" as Jesus said. The cup had been cleansed on the inside. They were walking in righteousness. They had repented of their sin, given up everything and were following Jesus.

Jesus described this as being perfect, to the rich young man. People forget even though the young man walked away because he was wealthy. The disciples had done all this so were perfect by Jesus's words.

Now in the letters written by the apostles they confirm that it was their experience, that they were walking in obedience to Jesus's commands. For so long people have denied this reality in the early church. And yes Pauls churches had struggles, and the argument was between walking in love or walking in licensiousness. Paul came down on the side of walking in righteousness, love and purity. It is odd so many deny this or that it is even possible.

I have never understood original sin doctrine from scripture but have only recently understood its gnostic origins and the foundation in Augustine and the reformed movement. What I have learnt from being a father, is one of the biggest problems we all face is love betrayal as a human. One young man fell in love but was betrayed by his girl friend. From then on he decided to use partners, and not risk such hurt again.

The nature of peoples hearts appears though they need love and support, they easily close down and get lost in layers of defence and insecurity. This leads to sin and failed relationships. So the source of lostness appears to be our need and acceptance of failure and being vulnerable. We are made in the image of our Father, with a heart of love. But love betrayed leads to sin and death. We feel God has betrayed and hurt us. Jesus came to demonstrate this is not true, and we can be free.

Righteous is someone that has made more right choices than wrong in their lives.

Matthew 11: 2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

4 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

1 Kings 19:And the word of the Lord came to him: “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

10 He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”


11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.”


Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.


Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Matthew 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

 

[FreeNChrist]

Righteous is someone that has made more right choices than wrong in their lives.

That is just terribly wrong.

 

[Chuckt]

Righteous is someone that has made more right choices than wrong in their lives.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So do you think God grades on a curve and Hitler doesn't make it in but you make it in because you sin less? No. The wages of one sin is death.

 

[PeterJens]

Righteous is someone that has made more right choices than wrong in their lives.

In one of the apocraphal writings Abraham is measured by weighing the good against the bad actions done in their life.
This is pure relativism and not holiness or righteousness and God describes.

You are righteous because you only do right things, or the wrong things you have done are forgiven either through the temple sacrifice or through faith in Jesus.

The principle is no sinful actions in thought or deed. Anything else is not biblical.

 

[valiant]

In one of the apocraphal writings Abraham is measured by weighing the good against the bad actions done in their life.
This is pure relativism and not holiness or righteousness and God describes.

You are righteous because you only do right things, or the wrong things you have done are forgiven either through the temple sacrifice or through faith in Jesus.

The principle is no sinful actions in thought or deed. Anything else is not biblical.

I thank God that I am righteous because Jesus Christ has been 'made unto me righteousness.' (1 Cor 1.30) He has 'covered me with a robe of righteousness', (Isaiah 61.10) the only righteousness satisfactory to God. As He was made sin by imputation, I have been made righteous by imputation (2 Cor 5.21),

 

[PeterJens]

I thank God that I am righteous because Jesus Christ has been 'made unto me righteousness.' (1 Cor 1.30) He has 'covered me with a robe of righteousness', (Isaiah 61.10) the only righteousness satisfactory to God. As He was made sin by imputation, I have been made righteous by imputation (2 Cor 5.21),

Imputed righteousness is an odd concept. It is saying I am perfect because Jesus is perfect. But that is a lie if I am commiting sin. But the problem again is the word perfect which is always used as a 100% behaviour mark to any standard.
So the question then becomes what is this mark. If the answer is simple how you do everything, everyone will answer that is impossible, because we all have different standards and very rarely we do anything 100%.

This is a total deviation from the example of Abraham. He was reconned as righteous because of his faith, and he kept the law.

Paul is arguing the Jews desired to establish righteousness by obeying the law without knowing God, so failed. Because we know God through Jesus we are counted as righteous, not because of obedience to the law, but because of faith.
We obey the moral law because we know God, as a part of this dynamic relationship.

Imputed righteousness seems to ignore the relationship, but appears a legal agreement, not based on love and communion but theology. What is acceptable to God is we believe Jesus.

Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.
Gen 26:5

If you do whatever I command you and walk in obedience to me and do what is right in my eyes by obeying my decrees and commands, as David my servant did, I will be with you.
1 Kings 11:38

Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.
Job 1:8

whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:16

so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.
Rom 6:19

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Rom 10:10

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Rom 1:17

 

[mpaper345]

John the Baptist was not saved the entire time he was on earth,but was saved after Jesus shed His blood,which washed away John's sins.

John the Baptist had the Spirit at birth,but it did not save him,but he received power by the Spirit,to prepare the way for Jesus in the future.

Jesus said that born of women,there has never been a greater than John the Baptist,because he received the Spirit at birth,but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him,which goes to prove that he did not receive the Spirit to save him.

 

[Chuckt]

Imputed righteousness is an odd concept. It is saying I am perfect because Jesus is perfect. But that is a lie if I am commiting sin. But the problem again is the word perfect which is always used as a 100% behaviour mark to any standard.
So the question then becomes what is this mark. If the answer is simple how you do everything, everyone will answer that is impossible, because we all have different standards and very rarely we do anything 100%.

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

It is an accounting term. He takes your sin and adds the sin to Jesus' account and takes Jesus's righteousness and adds it to your account just as if you never sinned if you will trust in Him.

 

[valiant]

Imputed righteousness is an odd concept. It is saying I am perfect because Jesus is perfect.

It says that as my sin is imputed to Jesus, so His righteousness is imputed to me. That is why I am justified in His sight.

But that is a lie if I am commiting sin.

tell that to God'

But the problem again is the word perfect which is always used as a 100% behaviour mark to any standard.

That's your problem. You make words mean what you want them to mean. Perfect does not mean 100% Behaviour. It means full grown, adult behaviour.

So the question then becomes what is this mark. If the answer is simple how you do everything, everyone will answer that is impossible, because we all have different standards and very rarely we do anything 100%.

we NEVER do anything 100% morally speaking

This is a total deviation from the example of Abraham. He was reconned as righteous because of his faith, and he kept the law.

He was 100% righteous because he believed God. His faith was COUNTED as righteousness, The law didn't come into it. It was an act of grace, not a matter of debt(Rom 4.4-5). He trusted Him who counted as righteous the ungodly.

Paul is arguing the Jews desired to establish righteousness by obeying the law without knowing God, so failed. Because we know God through Jesus we are counted as righteous, not because of obedience to the law, but because of faith.

Paul is not replacing keeping the law by acting in faith. He replaces it by an act of justification, received through faith. Faith is the channel, not the means, through which we are justified,

We obey the moral law because we know God, as a part of this dynamic relationship

.

true, but this has nothing to do with our being justified or counted as righteous. We are counted as righteous because we accept God's grace, not because we keep the moral law.

Imputed righteousness seems to ignore the relationship, but appears a legal agreement, not based on love and communion but theology.

Imputed righteousness IS a legal agreement. It is totally forensic. dikaio-o means to see as righteous in the eyes of the law regardless of actual righteousness, to COUNT AS righteous,