Did He, Or Didn't He?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Let me put it this way. In the OT fresh sin called for fresh blood. In the NT fresh sin is dealt with through the blood of Christ. Jesus doesn't have to hop back up on a cross to pay for your fresh sin. His blood is everlasting. He has an eternal priesthood and is your High Priest. He isn't like the priest of old, paying for His sins and then the sins of the people again and again. He did it once, and for all. Read Hebrews 10. So any new and fresh sin is washed in the blood of Christ thereby making Jesus' payment/sacrifice for sin take care of all sin (I.e, past, present and future).

I agree that the blood abides forever to forgive sin. But that doesn't address where is it written that a sin is forgiven before it is committed. Willingness to forgive something that hasn't happened yet is not the same thing as something being forgiven before it happens (as you folks teach).

 

[ember]

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. HEBREWS 9:12


Christ dies once for all...He died ONCE


Argueing against scripture .... makes his position more and more precarious

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Read Hebrews 10. So any new and fresh sin is washed in the blood of Christ thereby making Jesus' payment/sacrifice for sin take care of all sin (I.e, past, present and future).

Hebrews 10 is about the high priest on the day of atonement. We enter the holy place through our high priest's undefiled conscience. He is the one with no conscience of sin. As we abide in him, we become like him.

 

[BenFTW]

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. HEBREWS 9:12


Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. REVELATION 11:19



PERMANENT AND ETERNAL

I was just about to post from Hebrews 9. Check out these verses, further enhancing the point. Jesus would've suffered since the foundation of the world if His sacrifice didn't take care of all sin (past, present and future).

Hebrews 9:24-28King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[ember]

Hebrews 10 is about the high priest on the day of atonement. We enter the holy place through our high priest's undefiled conscience. He is the one with no conscience of sin. As we abide in him, we become like him.

no...you enter by Jesus blood on the altar in heaven

read it...it's in the Bible

through Jesus conscience?

and you call US gnostics?

 

[Budman]

Reading over the thread, I will never truly understand the desire of some to keep God's grace at arms length. It's akin to saying to Jesus: "You didn't do quite enough - I'll take it from here".

Does it stem from some deep rooted desire for praise? For recognition? To prove how much more "Christian" they are? Do they feel they are some shining "beacon" for weaker believers to emulate? That they are are so far above the average Christian that the very idea of unmerited favor is distasteful to them?

It rather reminds me of the Pharisees who prayed loud, complicated prayers in public so everyone could see how "holy" they were.

And it saddens me. Because they are literally preaching a different gospel. Something that brings a curse from God.

It is the height of hubris and foolishness to entertain the idea that one can contribute anything to the shed blood of Christ.

A prideful spirit is a shameful thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree that the blood abides forever to forgive sin. But that doesn't address where is it written that a sin is forgiven before it is committed. Willingness to forgive something that hasn't happened yet is not the same thing as something being forgiven before it happens (as you folks teach).

It is a little thing called justification.

When God declares us innocent based on his sons death, he means it.. It is not a partial deal. it is a done deal.

It is called , He has perfected forever by one sacrifice.

It is all over the scripture. you just have to be open to see it.. Or else it will stare you in the face and you will never see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 10 is about the high priest on the day of atonement. We enter the holy place through our high priest's undefiled conscience. He is the one with no conscience of sin. As we abide in him, we become like him.

um, Christ is the high priest not us,,

Most likely that is your problem. You think YOUR THE HIGH PRIEST??

 

[BenFTW]

I agree that the blood abides forever to forgive sin. But that doesn't address where is it written that a sin is forgiven before it is committed. Willingness to forgive something that hasn't happened yet is not the same thing as something being forgiven before it happens (as you folks teach).

Hypothetically, say you are going to get a $300 traffic ticket next week. I know this and place $300 in your car's compartment. The fact that I am paying (forgiving) your future infraction reveals that I took care of your future law breaking before it happened. I didn't need to wait until you broke the law to pay, but already provided the means to its payment. So, automatically, your future traffic violation is covered/taken away. VVhether it was paid the moment I gave you the $300 or the moment you gave the $300 to the officer is irrelevant, what matters is that its paid in full.

Its semantics, in a way. The fact, however, is that your sin has been paid by Christ's sacrifice. It isn't a matter of willingness either, He revealed His will by dying on the cross for your sins and this sacrifice was done once and established forever.


Hebrews 9:24-28King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[ember]

I was just about to post from Hebrews 9. Check out these verses, further enhancing the point. Jesus would've suffered since the foundation of the world if His sacrifice didn't take care of all sin (past, present and future).

Hebrews 9:24-28King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

yup

I would love to see an entire thread devoted to the above

I am of the thought that many believers in Christ do not actually know or understand this

It goes so far into what grace is about and the fact that Jesus is absolutely complete and we are only complete in Him

I get a bit overwhelmed when thinking about all this and how unbelievably perfect God's plan is!

I really would like to discuss all this in detail but the constant insertion of dubious beliefs that have been denied and thrown out through the centuries and the name calling and questioning of the salvation of any that point out the heresies regarding mixing the law and grace, makes for a very difficult time for what should actually be a rejoicing time and a thankful time because of all God has both done for us and provided for us!

 

[BenFTW]

Hypothetically, say you are going to get a $300 traffic ticket next week. I know this and place $300 in your car's compartment. The fact that I am paying (forgiving) your future infraction reveals that I took care of your future law breaking before it happened. I didn't need to wait until you broke the law to pay, but already provided the means to its payment. So, automatically, your future traffic violation is covered/taken away. VVhether it was paid the moment I gave you the $300 or the moment you gave the $300 to the officer is irrelevant, what matters is that its paid in full.

Its semantics, in a way. The fact, however, is that your sin has been paid by Christ's sacrifice. It isn't a matter of willingness either, He revealed His will by dying on the cross for your sins and this sacrifice was done once and established forever.


Hebrews 9:24-28King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Granted thats not how the process works (for paying a violation). LOL Details, who need 'em!? haha Replace officer with judge.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hypothetically, say you are going to get a $300 traffic ticket next week. I know this and place $300 in your car's compartment. The fact that I am paying (forgiving) your future infraction reveals that I took care of your future law breaking before it happened. I didn't need to wait until you broke the law to pay, but already provided the means to its payment. So, automatically, your future traffic violation is covered/taken away. VVhether it was paid the moment I gave you the $300 or the moment you gave the $300 to the officer is irrelevant, what matters is that its paid in full.

Its semantics, in a way. The fact, however, is that your sin has been paid by Christ's sacrifice. It isn't a matter of willingness either, He revealed His will by dying on the cross for your sins and this sacrifice was done once and established forever.


Hebrews 9:24-28King James Version (KJV)

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That's funny, A brother of mine got in a car accident, We were going to an air show and he was following us, We went over a bridge and traffic was stopped. and he could not stop because he was going to fast.

The police gave him a ticket. There was an envelope in his visor he does not remember putting there, When it was all said an done, he opened it up. Inside was a check for the exact amount of the ticket.

God does know we are going to be stupid.. But he loves us so much, He does prove that love by paying for our mistakes..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hypothetically, say you are going to get a $300 traffic ticket next week. I know this and place $300 in your car's compartment. The fact that I am paying (forgiving) your future infraction reveals that I took care of your future law breaking before it happened. I didn't need to wait until you broke the law to pay, but already provided the means to its payment. So, automatically, your future traffic violation is covered/taken away. VVhether it was paid the moment I gave you the $300 or the moment you gave the $300 to the officer is irrelevant, what matters is that its paid in full.

Its semantics, in a way. The fact, however, is that your sin has been paid by Christ's sacrifice. It isn't a matter of willingness either, He revealed His will by dying on the cross for your sins and this sacrifice was done once and established forever.

In your example, the law breaker is still responsible for breaking the law, and even though the penalty has been paid, he will still have to appear before the judge to confess his guilt. Otherwise, he will be tracked down and thrown in jail.

Settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will never come out of there until you have paid back the last penny! Matthew 5:25-26​

Likewise, those who do not acknowledge the guilt of their sin to GOD, and seek reconciliation that he offers for the offense, run the risk of getting into more trouble.

 

[ember]

In your example, the law breaker is still responsible for breaking the law, and even though the penalty has been paid, he will still have to appear before the judge to confess his guilt. Otherwise, he will be tracked down and thrown in jail.

Settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will never come out of there until you have paid back the last penny! Matthew 5:25-26​

Likewise, those who do not acknowledge the guilt of their sin to GOD, and seek reconciliation that he offers for the offense, run the risk of getting into more trouble.

your posts are reminding me more and more of a casket at a funeral that really really should not have been left open for viewing cause the accident that caused the death just did too much damage

shudder

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In your example, the law breaker is still responsible for breaking the law, and even though the penalty has been paid, he will still have to appear before the judge to confess his guilt. Otherwise, he will be tracked down and thrown in jail.

Settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will never come out of there until you have paid back the last penny! Matthew 5:25-26​

Likewise, those who do not acknowledge the guilt of their sin to GOD, and seek reconciliation that he offers for the offense, run the risk of getting into more trouble.

So the redeemer paid the price. But it will not go into effect unless the redeemed cashes in?

You do not understand redemption at all my friend.. There is no way you can possibly cash in your sin debt every time you sinned, You can not even know every sin you commit on a daily basis, all it would take was one sin to not be paid and you would be doomed forever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Granted thats not how the process works (for paying a violation). LOL Details, who need 'em!? haha Replace officer with judge.

It makes the point, God saved us KNOWING we were going to still be stupid and make wrong choices..

to say he will remove his salvation is like saying god did not know we would do something when he saved us to begin with. Talk about mocking his character.. It states God makes mistakes.

 

[thepsalmist]

Hebrews 10
26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left ...
... How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"


Grace grants us freedom from sin - through the power of the Holy Spirit... But if we use that freedom to sin deliberately we have insulted Jesus and abused the gift he offered us on the cross ... and there is no more sacrifice for sins left.

 

[BenFTW]

In your example, the law breaker is still responsible for breaking the law, and even though the penalty has been paid, he will still have to appear before the judge to confess his guilt. Otherwise, he will be tracked down and thrown in jail.

Settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will never come out of there until you have paid back the last penny! Matthew 5:25-26​

Likewise, those who do not acknowledge the guilt of their sin to GOD, and seek reconciliation that he offers for the offense, run the risk of getting into more trouble.

This goes into the error of parental/relational forgiveness. Remember when Jesus was on the cross and the veil "rent in twain"? The veil was torn signifying that which separated man from God's presence has been taken care of. VVe are reconciled to God, our Heavenly Father. Jesus took care of sin, once and for all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 10
26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left ...
... How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"


Grace grants us freedom from sin - through the power of the Holy Spirit... But if we use that freedom to sin deliberately we have insulted Jesus and abused the gift he offered us on the cross ... and there is no more sacrifice for sins left.

1 john 3:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18
[ Knowing the True—Rejecting the False ] We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

I am having trouble here. It seems John and Hebrews are apposed to each other, and contradicting.

Can you help me understand? They both can't be right can they>

 

[BenFTW]

Hebrews 10
26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left ...
... How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"


Grace grants us freedom from sin - through the power of the Holy Spirit... But if we use that freedom to sin deliberately we have insulted Jesus and abused the gift he offered us on the cross ... and there is no more sacrifice for sins left.

The willful sin was disbelief. The people were trampling underfoot the Son of God by trying to go back to temple sacrifices for forgiveness thereby treating Jesus' blood as common (I.e, like the blood of bulls and goats). Notice the "no sacrifice for sins is left", thats because Jesus paid for sin once and for all. So what does the word say?

Hebrews 10:18King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.