Did He, Or Didn't He?

[eternally-gratefull]

Simple reality

Faith, the gift of God, is reckoned to us as righteousness. Now if this is 100% righteousness, why does Jesus's righteousness need to be imputed to us.

Now some have said this is ones own righteousness. No. It is righteousness reckoned to us because of faith.

Now this was viewed in alignment with Abraham who obeyed God and followed Gods commands and precepts.
The temptation is to say this is irrelevant.

If ones theology does not account for this view, you are missing the apostles understanding of the effect of faith.

One major flaw in your discussion

Abraham was reckoned righteous before he did one work..

It was his faith that justified him, Not his work..

Nice try though.

 

[Zmouth]

Yep we establish it, every day of every month of every year.

1. I am guilty of not being able to fulfill the law
2. Because of this guilt. I am forced to have faith in Christ, Because it is all I have.. For left on my own, I would suffer my fate,, because the law would condemn me where I stand, and I would not have a leg to stand on.

Legalism rejects this facts. They have to. it goes against their belief system,

What about the law given in Matthew 4:4 since all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Did Jesus ever tell you about the time he passed by and heard a man that was deaf from his birth?

 

[Grace777x70]

My goodness BenFTW..I was going over this thread and just saw this post from HeRoseFromTheDead that you referenced .....here is the definition of the term this poster used to refer to his brothers and sisters in the Lord .. This should not be allowed on this Christian platform. This kind of vulgar speech should be stopped and dealt with.

circle jerk

noun, Slang: Vulgar. 1. mutual masturbation among three or more persons.

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

As usual another thread that started out promising has devolved into chaos and inanity from all of the non-relevant noise that the "grace" believer circle-jerk club is unashamed to spew out.

I really wish they or some others had stayed on topic and explained how sins can be forgiven before they're committed, and provide a scriptural example of such. Also, imagine such a lawless thing happening in this world.

OMgosh! Its The Purge! haha!

PS: Someone got the movie reference, right? lol

 

[thepsalmist]

I truly know what it means now ... to "REST IN THE LORD".

So this thread brought about something really good ... Jesus brought me here, kept me here (through all the mess), and brought me a wonderful gift of greater peace here. He is the author and finisher of my faith!

So this thread served at least one good purpose ...
I still think we could all be a little more respectful in how we share knowledge with others though.

Praise the Lord for He is Good!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

My goodness BenFTW..I was going over this thread and just saw this post from HeRoseFromTheDead that you referenced .....here is the definition of the term this poster used to refer to his brothers and sisters in the Lord .. This should not be allowed on this Christian platform. This kind of vulgar speech should be stopped and dealt with.

circle jerk

noun, Slang: Vulgar. 1. mutual masturbation among three or more persons.

It's a slang term for Echo Chamber. That is the context in which it was meant. I think my post will bear this out.

Participants in online communities may find their own opinions constantly echoed back to them, which reinforces their individual belief systems. This can create significant barriers to critical discourse within an online medium. Due to forming friendships and communities with like-minded people, this effect can also occur in real life. The echo chamber effect may also prevent individuals from noticing changes in language and culture involving groups other than their own. Regardless, the echo chamber effect reinforces one's own present world view, making it seem more correct and more universally accepted than it really is.[5] Another emerging term for this echoing and homogenizing effect on the Internet within social communities is cultural tribalism.​

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm hoping that there are other meanings for this word and that it was not used in malice as it is the number one meaning of the word in the dictionary. This shocked me when I first saw it.

My goodness BenFTW..I was going over this thread and just saw this post from HeRoseFromTheDead that you referenced .....here is the definition of the term this poster used to refer to his brothers and sisters in the Lord .. This should not be allowed on this Christian platform. This kind of vulgar speech should be stopped and dealt with.

circle jerk

noun, Slang: Vulgar. 1. mutual masturbation among three or more persons.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What about the law given in Matthew 4:4 since all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Did Jesus ever tell you about the time he passed by and heard a man that was deaf from his birth?

I am not sure what you mean, in reguards to my post.. Can you explain further

 

[PeterJens]

What is disappointing is simply the lack of simple honesty.

If faith is reckoned as righteousness, in believing in Jesus we are reckoned as righteous.
Now it is just stupid to say this was done before any works were done.

The simple answer is the faith models have not taken this into account. Oops.

The real stupidity is an attempt to try and suggest I care about works justification.
What I do care about is purity and righteousness. How do we walk as Jesus called us to.

You will notice many are not interested at all in this, and slander and abuse others about their sincere desire.
This is the Lords heart, to not be interested in this is not to know the will of God.

"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Sin is not part of that kingdom. Those who claim to know the Lord and do not know this simplicity, who are they?

 

[roaringkitten]

If faith is reckoned as righteousness, in believing in Jesus we are reckoned as righteous.
Now it is just stupid to say this was done before any works were done.

But the Bible says otherwise:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.Rom 4:5-7

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is disappointing is simply the lack of simple honesty.

If faith is reckoned as righteousness, in believing in Jesus we are reckoned as righteous.
Now it is just stupid to say this was done before any works were done.

Stupid? Dude your getting out of hand,

What is stupid is to not read the bible to test what your saying is stupid.. and not find out if it is right or not.

Abraham was reckoned as righteous in Gen 15: 16 after God made a covenant with him, concerning his son. God did not say, Ok Abraham, If you do this this and that, I will make you righteous,, God said, I am going to do this (give you a son) and in this son, you will have many descendents, And this child shall come from a miracle, And Abraham BELIEVED (HAD FAITH) IN GOD, and GOD RECKONED HIM RIGHTEOUS.

As Hebrews says, He did the WORKS because he was FULLY ASSURED God would keep his promise. He was saved because he HAD FULL ASSURANCE GOD WOULD KEEP HIS WORD.

The simple answer is the faith models have not taken this into account. Oops.

Oh? What is stupid is yesterday or the day before I posted examples given in Hebrews of how Faith was the power behind the good works. and not what you want to preach. of good works behind the power of faith..

And what is stupid is scripture does not support your theory.. FAITH works. You do not say you trust (have faith) in something then NEVER DO ANYTHING THAT SUPPORTS YOUR CLAIM.

The real stupidity is an attempt to try and suggest I care about works justification.

No what is stupid is you claiming you do not teach works justification. Every word out of your mouth is works.. WORKS WORKS WORKS, ME ME ME, I I I, Those are the words we keep hearing from you.. Not GOD GOD GOD, CROSS CROSS CROSS

What I do care about is purity and righteousness. How do we walk as Jesus called us to.

Yet you spit in righteousness by watering down the law. You spit in righteousness by sayin sin is not sin.. You spit in righteousness by saying it is your righteousness, Not Gods that saves you.

And in doing so you SPIT ON THE CROSS

And you want to talk about what is stupid?

You will notice many are not interested at all in this,

Actually yeah we are, But you are to blind to see this, All you see like your buddy are calvins theories, Gnostic theories Luther's theories or whatever, and try to put people in some imaginary excel spreadsheet, and not listen to a thing people actually believe and teach

We love righteousness, We just have a heart to make sure people are SAVED before we go around teaching them how to be righteous, You do not have a new student in medicine go do heart surgery,,They have to be given the power and be trained first.

You do not tell an unbeliever or fake believer how to be righteous, You tell them how to be saved first..

and slander and abuse others about their sincere desire.

But yet it is ok for you to slander us, Call us Calvinists, Call us all kinds of names, Say we believe or teach things we do not, Say we love sin, which we do not. Say we hate righteousness, Which is an outright lie, Say we are decievers because we do not have time to break apart a response and go over everything at the moment, When you DO It ALL THE TIME.

As I said yesterday, You have no right to judge anyone of these things when you yourself are the one who does these things more than anyone in here (yes even more than HRFTD, I know. thats hard to believe, but it is)

This is the Lords heart, to not be interested in this is not to know the will of God.

"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Sin is not part of that kingdom. Those who claim to know the Lord and do not know this simplicity, who are they?

So your perfect? You must be, Because if you are not perfect. You just condemned yourself (We are used to that though, you do it all the time.)

 

[PeterJens]

The above post proves my point.

Think about this. Good works are good that anybody does them. They are not done to justify oneself or to create the "I am a nice person" impression. Now God does not say, do not do good works, carry on sinning, in fact sin some more, because if you do not believe good works mean nothing.

No God says, when sin abounds, are there any righteous people left? When Sodom and Gomorah were going to be destroyed this was the question.

So I do not care when or who does good works, it is good anybody does them. This is why for me, it is stupid to start to say this happens before that. It is like talking to a pharisee with their list of rules and judgements, yet these same people claim to be free from the law. It appears I am more free from the law than them.

And when I am honest and declare my approach to a problem that is sin. But again they are not under condemnation, but they know how to attempt to spread it around. Talk about putting burdens on people over nothing.

Whatever I say, I am the evil sinner, unsaved and lost - they are just nuts, lost in their own world.

 

[PeterJens]

A small side note, I take 10 lines to make this small point, not reams of unread stuff. I admire the effort but not the content.

 

[PoetMary]

Considering that this is a post about the salvivic work of Jesus on the Cross, and about the ultimate manifestation of God's grace to us as expressed through the work of Jesus on the Cross, I thought I'd weigh in with a few observations.

1. It seems that when CHRISTIAN people disagree on the boards the tactic is to stack up the bible verses, get out the doctrine sticks and proceed with the beatings. I find this interesting. Certainly, there's something to be said for basing one's doctrine on the bible; however, why haven't we sorted it out by now that we're using the same bibles, the same verses, and drawing different conclusions. Even PAUL claimed that "now we see but a dim reflection." So, I don't get the animosity. If people disagree philosophically, and that disagreement has been explored/explained/fleshed out and they STILL disagree, why not just leave the other person in peace? If we truly believe that person is wrong, shouldn't we be praying for that person? Has anyone really ever found this "direct attack" method to be profitable?

2. I don't find any contradiction in the idea that the work of Jesus was entirely effectual, SO THEREFORE when we experience this grace it OBLIGATES US. Jesus himself said, "If you love me you'll keep my commandments." The whole POINT of salvation wasn't to provide us with fire insurance. it was so we could have an ACTUAL WORKING RELATIONSHIP with God himself. It's impossible to have a relationship if one party does all the work and the other person does nothing. So, SALVATION means we've entered the kingdom. What's the point of being in the kingdom if you don't want to hang with the king, or please the king, or show your devotion to the king? It is LOVE that obligates us. It particularly obligates us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. God isn't some egomaniac in the sky who needs us to constantly prop him up. We have received lavish, extravagant, and abundant grace from God....so abundant that we should have lots and lots left over left to share with others. Yet sometimes we act like God has a scarcity of grace....Oh you better get yours before he runs out....and you better hoard it because you might not get more. It makes no sense to me that people who proclaim to understand the grace of God have so little of it to share with the humans for whom Jesus died. We're not called to be gracious when people are gracious to us--even pagans manage this. We're called to LOVE OUR ENEMIES (even if they are posters on chatboards).

3. I find that if I cannot be gracious to others, it's because I've somehow distanced myself from God's grace to me...and that I need to correct that.

 

[thepsalmist]

Dear PeterJens,

As you witnessed ... yesterday I was carried over the fence on this subject. Brought from an old pasture into a new one. God was with me yesterday as He is today - that has not changed - but my mindset and understanding have been upgraded....SOOOOOOOOO I do see and understand where you're coming from. But now I also see where the others are coming from.

What I want to say to you is ... walk more softly .... Do leave room for the possibility that you are mistaken.

I came to an understanding of MATT 13 yesterday that explained something to me - maybe you'll benefit from my struggles.

The parable of the sower ... the different soils are different conditions of the heart. For you to receive understanding of the word, your heart must be GOOD SOIL ------ LOVING and OPEN to learn .... right now your heart is probably the wayside.

Pray for a new heart made of good soil, full of love and willing to accept new gifts from God ...

Peace n Love~

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The above post proves my point.

Think about this. Good works are good that anybody does them. They are not done to justify oneself or to create the "I am a nice person" impression. Now God does not say, do not do good works, carry on sinning, in fact sin some more, because if you do not believe good works mean nothing.

No God says, when sin abounds, are there any righteous people left? When Sodom and Gomorah were going to be destroyed this was the question.

So I do not care when or who does good works, it is good anybody does them. This is why for me, it is stupid to start to say this happens before that. It is like talking to a pharisee with their list of rules and judgements, yet these same people claim to be free from the law. It appears I am more free from the law than them.

And when I am honest and declare my approach to a problem that is sin. But again they are not under condemnation, but they know how to attempt to spread it around. Talk about putting burdens on people over nothing.

Whatever I say, I am the evil sinner, unsaved and lost - they are just nuts, lost in their own world.

A car can not run without an engine, A plane is useless without wings, A guitar is meaningless without strings, A church is useless without truth.

In the same token, Works are meaningless, powerless and (Scripture actually calls them bloody rags) without the power of the HS in a born again believer.

Saying one can work without God is like saying a car can run without wings..

Yes, I keep askking if you are perfect. Because when you make posts like you do. That is the standard you have to follow. So if you are not perfect. You do not follow your own standard.

Like a plane without wings,, A church (gospel) without truth is meaningless..

You need to open your eyes. Not everyone is out to hate you or get you. We just want you to see what your doing.

 

[Zmouth]

Yep we establish it, every day of every month of every year.

1. I am guilty of not being able to fulfill the law
2. Because of this guilt. I am forced to have faith in Christ, Because it is all I have.. For left on my own, I would suffer my fate,, because the law would condemn me where I stand, and I would not have a leg to stand on.

Legalism rejects this facts. They have to. it goes against their belief system,

I am not sure what you mean, in reguards to my post.. Can you explain further

It is written that Jesus said neither the blind man nor his parents had sinned, you believe him right?


If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.1 Cor 15:19

 

[TruthFromFrank]

Jesus died on the cross for all our sins. First of all we need to know what sin is. That is everything done out of line of God's Will, which is documented in the Ten Commandments, nothing more or nothing less. If you have accepted Jesus as the Son of God in your life and have sinned and confessed, that sin is forgiven by grace as Jesus' death covered this forgiveness. If a sin is repeated without confessing, the punishment for sinning will be handed down to him/her which is destruction with fire and brimstone.

 

[Budman]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and the follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand..." (John 10:28)

If you believe you can abandon your salvation and walk away, you are actually claiming that Jesus lied when He said His sheep will never perish, and you are also claiming you are greater than God, because Jesus said no one (including yourself) can be lost from His, or the Father's, hand.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and the follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand..." (John 10:28)

If you believe you can abandon your salvation and walk away, you are actually claiming that Jesus lied when He said His sheep will never perish, and you are also claiming you are greater than God, because Jesus said no one (including yourself) can be lost from His, or the Father's, hand.

It is, in fact, the very will of God.....

John 6:39

"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

 

[Budman]

It is, in fact, the very will of God.....

John 6:39

"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

Indeed. If one who is saved, could be lost, even by "walking away" from God, it would make Christ out to be a liar.