Please Interpret Matthew 5:38-48

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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#21
If you look at what He said in context, He was speaking about the whole notion of "revenge".... I think He was trying to teach us the principle of forgiveness.

Our "natural man" response to being wrongly treated, whether it's at work, or someone mouthing at you in the parking lot, is to give it right back to them... to "win".
I think Jesus is teaching us to let stuff like that slide, and don't get all worked up over it. It's damaging to our well-being, and is damaging to our being witnesses of Christ to the world. (I have difficulties with this when I'm driving :eek:)

I don't think it means that we should not defend ourselves against violence, whether in our personal lives, or as citizens of our country.

A slap on the face is only a threat to your pride... let it go.
Good post! Agree with all of what you've said. Turning the other cheek for a slap, or not getting ruffled over somebody taking clothing, are not mortal violence. The principle is we should be people of peace, not dog eat dog, that, if we're to be children of our Lord and forgiving, as He is, that we have to go the world one better, show we're made of different stuff involving light, as opposed to darkness, have some selflessness, as opposed to selfishness.

On other hand, it's clearly part of the responsibility of a family man to protect his family, and God has not been opposed to government He ordains executing criminals or warring against evil, that there is a time for mercy, another time for justice. It's also always occurred to me there's a distinction between being martyred for Christ and being the victim of some criminal thug, don't see where God gets any glory for us being crime victims nor that it's right to allow more victims: it's not loving your neighbor to give the evil a pass, to move on to victimizing your neighbor. Like anything, we have to take the whole world of God, the context of the entire Bible, to see the big picture, and we can't say those verses are ordaining total pacifism, in all situations, or God Himself would be in breach of such a doctrine.

You can't argue protecting your family is not part of providing, that it would be some piece of work, any person who would not defend his or her own, as if some misplaced self-righteousness rules over the mandate to love others, no greater love than to give your life for others, even,

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

We're to live peaceably, as far as is possible, but peace is not some absolute mandate, in all circumstances,

Romans 12:17-18 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

There's also a vast difference between being hateful and vengeful, and doing the ugly task of having to stand up to evil you'd rather not have to deal with, the thoughts and motivations of our hearts, the inner man, who we are: protecting yourself or your family, or your nation, for a righteous indignation against evil offenses, to thwart evil, is not being vengeful. Though these verses involve doctrine, they also point out a general principle that wishing the evil God speed is partaking of their evil,

2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


Hitler would have had no power at all, if it weren't for the fact he had a lot of "good Nazis" at his beck and call. Lastly, the Christian is not called upon to be a friend of the world, which would be enmity with God.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#22
I am lazy. I do like to believe (whether it's true or not) that I am not the only lazy one, so for all the other lazies, here's the verses copy/pasted (without removing extras added by the ESV):
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[a] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[b] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There, that makes it easier.

So when to turn a cheek and when to set your face like flint? Easy one to say, but hard to do.

Decide who is being treated poorly while remember the two commandments. The lazy version -- Love God fully and love others.

Has anyone swatted your face to hurt someone else? I haven't had that experience, although I've seen scenes on TV where interrogators point the gun at a love one to make someone talk.

So I think this is don't ever defend yourself. Matter of fact, give more instead of defending yourself. (Back in those days, common folk only had two tunics, so giving the other one away was very much a huge giving. Today that equals hand over your whole wardrobe.) But, oh yeah! If you need to love God or someone else by openly going to war, go to war.

Jesus was telling us to move away from considering ourselves first. He told us not to consider ourselves at all, "merely" love God fully and others fully.

See? Easier said than done! BUT it is the goal. The real argument against it is, "but I want to love myself first." I truly get that from the bottom of my corrupted heart, but that's not what Jesus wants us to do at all. It is 180 degrees from what he wants us to do!

It's not just hard to do. It's impossible to do, unless we trust him enough to guide us from the inside out. (And even that comes from him.)

Jesus knocked over tables to love his father. It wasn't about him.

He is God so he never needed to stand in front of that court sentencing him to death that whole night. He could have defended himself, but that would not have been loving his Father nor loving others. That would be doing what we would do in his shoes at that moment. He could have kneed the guy about to whip him. He could have headbutted the guy who placed that crown of thorns on his head. He could have dropped the cross and told the Romans to carry it themselves, but all of that would have been loving himself, not loving the Father fully or others fully.

He walked the walk after talking the talk, showing us his way.

For the life of me, I cannot imagine anyone convincing me to carry the cross they're about to hang me on. Then again, I'm not God and God would want me to do just that, if I ever got stuck in that position. That's how impossible this is with God working in us.

Take war itself one side is fighting the other side both sides are shooting and killing each other on both sides, in the mist of this on person on one side throws a Grenade into the other side to wipe out many but one person throws himself on top of the Grenade to save many on thier side.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#23
There's another thread that talks about are we the center of Gods purpose, is this true? for isn't it true that Jesus not only came to save us but to throw himself on top of a grenade to save us?
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#24
There's another thread that talks about are we the center of Gods purpose, is this true? for isn't it true that Jesus not only came to save us but to throw himself on top of a grenade to save us?
Except only those who accept His work get into heaven.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#25
Except only those who accept His work get into heaven.
So do you except that Jesus came to do the battling for us and that the War has been won? If it's not over yet then does one have a choice to either set on the sidelines and watch the battle rage or does one join the fight and fight for a side.
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#26
So do you except that Jesus came to do the battling for us and that the War has been won? If it's not over yet then does one have a choice to either set on the sidelines and watch the battle rage or does one join the fight and fight for a side.
Jesus won the war with the devil and provided salvation for everyone that believes.
The war we fight is for good to get other people to believe and be saved.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#27
Kingdom of Heaven doctrine being taught when Jesus is King of Kings and ruling with a rod of iron. In this economy, one would not resist evil but turn the other cheek. Let the King handle the discipline, don't take matters into your own hands.

Paul says to the Church:

Romans 12:18, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." We should do everything possible to live at peace with one another, however, sometimes it's not possible because the other party does not want peace. In this case, the Holy Spirit has allowed for self defense or whatever necessary to restore peace. Since the kingdom was postponed, God knew the day would be evil. He would not allow the body of Christ to be the doormat of society.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#28
Kingdom of Heaven doctrine being taught when Jesus is King of Kings and ruling with a rod of iron. In this economy, one would not resist evil but turn the other cheek. Let the King handle the discipline, don't take matters into your own hands.

Paul says to the Church:

Romans 12:18, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." We should do everything possible to live at peace with one another, however, sometimes it's not possible because the other party does not want peace. In this case, the Holy Spirit has allowed for self defense or whatever necessary to restore peace. Since the kingdom was postponed, God knew the day would be evil. He would not allow the body of Christ to be the doormat of society.
This makes sense to me Brovo
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#29
So, if you are out shopping with your wife, and a violent criminal drags her into the alley and rapes her, you would do nothing about it? Would you tell him you are going to pray for him, that he really shouldn't do all those bad things?
Turn the other cheek would mean give him your daughter as well...

just kidding... don't hit me!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#30
If someone where to hurt someone I loved/cared about...they would lose their life or get maimed bad...that is my turning of the cheek or in reality (their cheek, punch on left and right cheek) lol. I don't know if this verse was manipulated or not....but the OT was full of violence so how can God contradict himself???? OT said if your neighbor killed someone you kill that murderer...no turning other cheek but stones to the cheek!
I never thought about it like that. When someone smacks you on the left cheek turning your head to the right, you turn your right cheek to him as you let him have it with a right roundabout. :cool:
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#31
If you look at what He said in context, He was speaking about the whole notion of "revenge".... I think He was trying to teach us the principle of forgiveness.

Our "natural man" response to being wrongly treated, whether it's at work, or someone mouthing at you in the parking lot, is to give it right back to them... to "win".
I think Jesus is teaching us to let stuff like that slide, and don't get all worked up over it. It's damaging to our well-being, and is damaging to our being witnesses of Christ to the world. (I have difficulties with this when I'm driving :eek:)

I don't think it means that we should not defend ourselves against violence, whether in our personal lives, or as citizens of our country.

A slap on the face is only a threat to your pride... let it go.
This isn't a counterpoint nor an argument. This is a gal who's never been punched in the face asking a guy, because sometimes guys do get punched in the face.

Does what you say change if it's a punch vs. a slap?

Truthfully, my reaction to slaps (albeit I've only physically been slapped in the face once or twice in my life) is such stunned surprise, my jaw just stays stuck like this


By the time I snap out of it, it's too late to slap back. So I'm honestly asking if you've ever experienced the punch vs. the slap to know what your first reaction is. I tend to think punch back as pure instinct, but I don't know.

And I'm not saying that's the right reaction either. I'm asking, practically speaking, at what point do you react? And at what point is it reasonable to react with a good sock-it-to-'em reaction. (I knee for personal safety reasons only, but I'm not a guy, and I doubt most guys even consider that because you're guys and know how much that hurts. We gals, fortunately, have no idea how much that hurts. lol)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#32
You wouldn't get much.:) I would not enforce this doctrine on the Church, the body of Christ. I know I get a lot of push back concerning my dispensational views, but that's where I stand.
LOL Same thing I was thinking -- no one wants to waste their time to steal my stuff. LOL
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#33
What concerns me is that Christians are overrun in other countries and have become extinct.
An old friend of mine was born and raised in Lebanon as a Christian. In Lebanon, when they speak of ethnical groups, Christian is one. His family left Lebanon during their civil war, about the time of the Marine Barrack's bombing, because it was no longer safe to be a Christian there. Just saying, so you know God does get his people into safer places if the need arises and it is part of his will. (Sometimes his will is for his believers to be wiped out, as happened in the first century in Alexandria.)

God will always have a remnant, no matter what the world plans.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#34
Wow this is a great debate....I personally don't care to turn the other cheek anymore....people just walk over you like a doormat if you do that...yes now all the Christians on the forum will throw verses at me....but hold on....there is another verse which says the Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force....matthew 11:12 ...I don't entirely know what that verse means but it sounds totally opposite to being a pacificist....

Pacificist christians get run over in society because we don't stand up for what we Believe in and let people say all sorts of junk about us....Now granted we aren't going to go cuss someone out...but there is a way of being affirmative in a good way but still getting your point across...aka not just taking punches but at least blocking them!

If someone where to hurt someone I loved/cared about...they would lose their life or get maimed bad...that is my turning of the cheek or in reality (their cheek, punch on left and right cheek) lol. I don't know if this verse was manipulated or not....but the OT was full of violence so how can God contradict himself???? OT said if your neighbor killed someone you kill that murderer...no turning other cheek but stones to the cheek!
Jesus did what he told us we ought to do. Can you show me any evidence that he was a doormat? He did stand up to those who would have him quiver. He simply didn't strike back -- verbally or physically.

When I was young I taught something called "effective education." It was basically humanism to get people to feel good about themselves. (Hey! I was young. I didn't get it until later. But I did catch the setup trap and taught it differently than what the book told me to teach.
) My lessons would go something like this:
It's midnight on a Sunday night and your loved one is violent sick. He/she needs a prescription immediately, but the pharmacy is closed. What do you do? Break into the pharmacy or wait until the next day?

Seems like an either/or choice right? And, according to the curriculum "no answer is wrong."

BUT after letting the students dicker over the two choices for a while, they'd ask me what I'd do.

I told them I'd find the nearest hospital and go to their pharmacy, because hospital pharmacies are open 24/7.

They'd tell me I can't do that because that's not one of the choices given. I'd teach them to think outside the box, don't let the two common choices dictate the only choices, and come up with a choice that isn't against the law or hurts anyone a moral choice!

You're falling for the same trap. You think the two choices are doormat or beligerant. Noper. Christ showed us the right choice. He was neither.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#35
...The principle is we should be people of peace, not dog eat dog,...
Wait! Dog eat dog is bad?



(This is the image in my head when I hear that line. Sorry 'bout that. Couldn't resist.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#36
So do you except that Jesus came to do the battling for us and that the War has been won? If it's not over yet then does one have a choice to either set on the sidelines and watch the battle rage or does one join the fight and fight for a side.
We always have choice, just like Jonah did. (We always have choice, but ultimately God will get us to where he planned us to be at the right time and in the right frame of mind long enough to carry out his will.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#37
Kingdom of Heaven doctrine being taught when Jesus is King of Kings and ruling with a rod of iron. In this economy, one would not resist evil but turn the other cheek. Let the King handle the discipline, don't take matters into your own hands.

Paul says to the Church:

Romans 12:18, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." We should do everything possible to live at peace with one another, however, sometimes it's not possible because the other party does not want peace. In this case, the Holy Spirit has allowed for self defense or whatever necessary to restore peace. Since the kingdom was postponed, God knew the day would be evil. He would not allow the body of Christ to be the doormat of society.
I did google the phrase but found so many divergent sites, I still don't know what you mean. What is "Kingdom of God doctrine" to you? (Never heard the phrase before.)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,255
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#38
Kingdom of God is the invisible kingdom where we are placed spiritually, not physically. The literal, physical kingdom of heaven has been postponed because the nation of Israel, as a whole, rejected their messiah. Both aspects of the kingdom will be realized at the 2nd coming Jesus Christ.

I did google the phrase but found so many divergent sites, I still don't know what you mean. What is "Kingdom of God doctrine" to you? (Never heard the phrase before.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#39
Kingdom of God is the invisible kingdom where we are placed spiritually, not physically. The literal, physical kingdom of heaven has been postponed because the nation of Israel, as a whole, rejected their messiah. Both aspects of the kingdom will be realized at the 2nd coming Jesus Christ.
Ah, definitely wouldn't call that doctrine. I tend to think doctrine are the particulars all believers must believe. That is so not what I believe. But, I'm glad I asked because I was going for 2-3 other choices of what that meant before thinking this was the choice.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,255
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#40
Doctrine, or direct teaching to an individual or group from the Bible, to be taken literally as direction from God.

Ah, definitely wouldn't call that doctrine. I tend to think doctrine are the particulars all believers must believe. That is so not what I believe. But, I'm glad I asked because I was going for 2-3 other choices of what that meant before thinking this was the choice.