When to forgive

[BeyondET]

Where sin abounds, grace did much more abound...it is biblical to forgive...how about Jesus on the cross being killed for humanities sin...Father forgive them for thy know not what they do....how about Stephen while being stoned to death..Forgive them etc.......not that we should facillitate the thief, but forgive the thief....me personally...I would shoot him or hold him at gunpoint until the cops got there.....does not mean that I cannot forgive him.......

Good post, This surely would depend on which state one lives in because in my state if I'm on my couch watching tv, and a burglar breaks in without a weapon a gun,knife,etc. and pays no mind to me doesn't threaten me in anyway I can't do anything but call the cops if I try and resist him from stealing my stuff I can be prosecuted for that. that's the Law in my state VA go figure though then again it seems that would line up with some bible thinking,, though for me it would be hard for me not to tackle the person no doubt,, but if I hurt hem or even killed them it would be on me according to the law in my state. Though its on the books sometimes people aren't prosecuted for defending their property but sometimes they are.. If they do have a gun and shoot at me or rage at me with a knife, game on better not miss for I won't. Jesus already gave his life for mine surely he would defend my life if I choose to defend my life.

 

[resurrection33]

I know many who have withheld forgiveness, waiting for the others repentance. All it did was eat their own lunch, while the one they withheld forgiveness from lived on in merry bliss totally oblivious to it all.

I forgive the fellow as soon as he stops kicking my shins. I think he should be pleased with that.

 

[resurrection33]

Do you think forgiveness is conditional, to be offered only upon repentance?
Why?
This immediately made me think of the example provided in Luke 23:34

First of all, if someone is kicking my shins, all I am thinking about is getting him to stop. If he stops, I forgive him.

Second, what good does it do him if I forgive him before he stops kicking me in the shins?

 

[resurrection33]

I've found that rather than being a form of protection, it becomes more toxic to hold on to resentment against those who have wronged us.

You shouldn't hold on to resentment towards someone who has wronged you. However, we need to protect ourselves from those who are in the process of wronging us. If someone aims a loaded revolver at me, I'll duck.

 

[AuntieAnt]

Before it was time for Christ to die on the cross, there were attempts made on the Lord's life. People wanted to throw him off a cliff and also wanted to stone him. Jesus got away from them.

 

[Miri]

It's a difficult subject and for those who have experienced violence
I cannot pretend to imagine the problems you must have.

An example which did come to mind is that of David and Saul. David was
chased and hounded for years by Saul. But David was still able to extend the
grace of God to him, even to the degree that he did not extract revenge and
kill him when the opportunity came.

Then there is Paul who persecuted the church, that must have been hard
one minute he was threatening to murder everyone, then the next he was the
main man of the moment spreading the gospel.

I also wonder about Joseph, the wine guy got out but forgot about him.
His brothers also sold him into slavery. If ever there was a person who
could have bore a grudge it was him.

Its not always an overnight thing, it can take time to heal emotionally but as
some have said, I think forgiveness is important.

Unresolved bitterness and hurt only harms the person who harbours it.
It hinders God's work in a person's life and it is always there in the
background waiting to bite you when you least expect it.

I really do think God gently leads a person into forgiveness. He does not
stand over them with a big iron bar pointing the finger, rather he works
in the back ground coaxing them to himself leading them to the right time
to deal with the issues.

I have experienced this myself. Some may have read my testimony and
know I was brought up in foster care by my aunt. I thought I had
dealt with my past but then in 2014 I discovered my real mum who I
have not seen since I was a child, had died.

This brought all sorts of unresolved issues up, it was not so much that
I had to forgive her, my real mum had schizophrenia she had nothing to
apologise for.

But I did find that I needed to forgive God, forgive myself and
forgive other members if my family aunt's and uncles, grandparents
- that is forgive them in my own mind. Some are no longer alive and
others I have not seen for 30-40 years.

The odd thing was that my mum died in 2012 but I did not find
out about this until 2014. Looking back I think God was waiting for
the right time for me to deal with everything. 2012 was not the right
time but 2014 was.

 

[AuntieAnt]

I come from a history of childhood abuse into my young adult years. In fact, by the time my eyes were clearly open to Jesus Christ, I was so conditioned to violence that my mentality was based on survival and the protection of other victims. Of course, I was ultimately diagnosed with PTSD.

Nevertheless, the Lord uses the negative things in our favor when we are given the mind of Christ. We wouldn't recognize depth of reality if everything is all light and no shadows. Through a lot of wise counseling I am able to recognize reacting to my feelings vs responding in truth.

Nobody has to teach me survival tactics. My instincts are like a cat. My adrenalin goes from zero to warp speed at the sound of trouble. I can protect others like a mother bear if I smell a snake. But I'm learning not to put my trust in my instincts because it's carnal and it robs me of peace and joy and faith. And it makes me focus on shadows rather than light.

Father God in His beautiful loving kindness to me has been showing me a much better way throughout my daily life. He is showing me Himself. I can't say enough about the miracle of love and grace and mercy of God. If there is one attribute of Christ that I glory in it is that He is faithful. I know no matter what, I can trust Him to show me the right way, in spite of what I see or feel.

I don't have to worry about what if's. There hasn't been a time in my entire life that Jesus has lied to me. For that alone, I trust Him.

 

[coby]

First of all, if someone is kicking my shins, all I am thinking about is getting him to stop. If he stops, I forgive him.

Second, what good does it do him if I forgive him before he stops kicking me in the shins?

He sees the amazing love he doesn't deserve, gets convicted and stops or he goes on lol.

 

[Depleted]

LOL - ok well- this is an extreme example - I guess an extreme reply might be appropriate?

Just think how CONFUSED a thief would be if you started handing over your stuff to him

He would be dumbfounded - he would question why --- it might even create a good opportunity to witness

At the very least God would surely be proud that you chose to give the thief your cloak as well - rather than fight over your stuff that perishes.

I yelled out to God when I was being raped. Yes, the guys paused. All of them. (I couldn't see their faces, but I saw everyone go still.) And then one raised an axe over my head and told me to shut up. I had my winter coat on (the only thing I could grab from the clothes they ripped off me.) The style back then included a hood, which, at that moment, was over my head. I had just enough movement on one hand that was held down next to me to fling the hood off my neck to give him a better shot, and told him to do it. He put down the axe as I went back to begging God again.

(At which time, he produced a baseball bat and expected a different result from me. Same result, except the hood was already off my head.)

Sometimes it's not just a walkman or a coat. I'm still verbal and offensive. (Mom taught me as I was growing up that a good defense is a great offense, so I'm usually offensing it, even defensively. lol)

I really do think stealing my stuff is way too easy for my question. How about stealing you? Who you are? Something so personally you that no way, no how are you ever giving it away?

 

[Depleted]

That's horrible. I can understand someone doesn't forgive then immediately, but there are even people who have ISIS people killing them and forgive. One got saved because of that.
Once met a rapist when I was biking in the middle of the night in the woods. I said: God is here! He got so scared, he didn't dare touch me anymore. Tried to convert him and said God could heal him from this.

And if you were with a a friend and he was planning on raping both of you, but your friend cussed him out, would you think you should ask him to forgive her? This is the other half of my question. The bulk of it.

 

[resurrection33]

He sees the amazing love he doesn't deserve, gets convicted and stops or he goes on lol.

He'd probably go on and I'd have sore shins.

 

[Grace777x70]

That's like the movie "Les Miserables" when the cardinal gave Jean the silver candlesticks when the officers came with the thief...forgiveness releases us and them to be themselves..

LOL - ok well- this is an extreme example - I guess an extreme reply might be appropriate?

Just think how CONFUSED a thief would be if you started handing over your stuff to him

He would be dumbfounded - he would question why --- it might even create a good opportunity to witness

At the very least God would surely be proud that you chose to give the thief your cloak as well - rather than fight over your stuff that perishes.

 

[Depleted]

a-a-nd now i'm crying. (and laughing)

in that context, if i were Sally asking the offenders to forgive Lynn would be my way of trying to protect her against further hurt. more colloquial than Christian-ese, if you know what i mean?

should Sally forgive mid-offense? truly, i don't know if she would be able to... you're so busy wondering if this is as bad as it's gonna get and you know how you sorta go numb? (i did) some kind of self protective mechanism? for me, it took time even to process what had happened. then all the self-blame (how was i stupid enough to 'let' that happen blah blah), i had to get past that. and as you know, we didn't have the victims advocates we do now.

i'm bad with hypotheticals... (obviously! hehe)
and i'm not brave like you. i tend to duck and cover.

I don't think what I do is brave. Maybe stupid, but I got Momma Bear instincts up the whazoo. It really is okay if you hurt me. Not ever -- ever ever -- someone near me -- family, friend or total stranger. Worse yet, I've got zero fighting skills, so I can guarantee I'll lose that fight, and yet, in the process maybe they'll forget they were planning on hurting Sally. (I really do think it out before acting. So strange, because it's only a split second. I can give you every detail of what was happening once when someone crashed into my car in the side, pushing my car and me clear across three lanes into a pole, right down to watching my glasses go the entire length of the dashboard. That accident was in the 1990's, only took 1-2 seconds, maybe, but the replay takes forever, and I remember everything I was thinking and trying to do.) No idea where that came from, because I don't remember not being that.

 

[Depleted]

Oh oh, I get your point now. I guess FreeNChrist said it all. Jesus did say "Father forgive them..." while He was on the Cross. As for asking the offender to forgive the victim... Well when Peter attacked the soldier and cut off his ear (in this case, he's the victim, the soldier was the offender for arresting Jesus), well, Jesus certainly didn't ask the soldier to forgive Peter for cutting of his ear. He did heal him, so not sure how to view that.

More he didn't ask the soldier to forgive Peter, but yeah, more like that. Good example! Thanks!

 

[Depleted]

i can tell you what i learned in church

when God forgives His children, He cancels our sin debt. (which is not the same as imputed righteousness, but it's part of the redemption package, all glory to God)

He has a perfect right to hold that debt against our account and demand payment. but that payment was made by Another, so it's Jubilee!

i can usually tell when i'm holding unforgiveness because i want that person to pay.
maybe i'm making the person pay 'merely' by refusing to associate with him/her. but by withholding my 'wonderful presence ', i am still exacting a payment.

now, perhaps that's an illustration best used for spoken offenses... i didn't want to pal around with the guy who raped me.
but by God's grace, i, like you, was eventually able to pray for his salvation.

it does get complicated! i feel certain others will take this further than i am able.

This is what I like about you. You speak my language, (after you figure out what I'm saying. lol) I shall grace you with my presence....

Just kidding, but I really do get how weird I can get for even the vaguest revenge factor.

As for those creeps? (If they are still creeps.) I'm never inviting them over for dinner. (Well, 40 years later, never did figure out who they were, so, if I still lived around there -- and I figured out where it happened ten years later when hubby and I moved into that odd little neighborhood -- I might well have without knowing it, because God did have mercy on them.) The best love and/or forgiveness I can do is pray for them. I can't do any better for my hubby or Dad so it's as good as God has given me to do.

Some very good things did come out of that though. That was my final straw for sheer-stupid decisions I made when stoned. (Sober, who is crazy enough to get into a car full of guys who are going the opposite way I'm hitchhiking to get to? I might well have been that stupid straight, but I'll never know.) I went to rehab right after that. It wasn't rape advocacy, but it sure was a place full of others who made their fair share (and someone else's fair share) of stupid decisions too. If I didn't sober up, I may have never returned to God fully, helped others, and met hubby in the church I started to go to. So, bad moment with some mighty fine examples of sheer-stupidity turned into God's full measure of good.

I just told the part where one of the guys threatened to kill me during. I was fuming with God because I'd rather die than go through that. And yet, all these years later, I see something of why he spared me even from my sheer stupidity. I see through a glass darkly. Who knows how far God took what seemed bad for his glory and my good? I suspect that's going to be another WHOA! moment when God shows me how he intertwined so many things there. Cool if he shows me and those guys together.

 

[Depleted]

I don't like ever talking about it but as a child I was sexually abused in many ways that I honestly cannot speak of in a public forum it is extremely gross and very inappropriate but if I could ever meet them again I would let them know I forgive them.
Forgiveness the kind that jesus taught is not so easy for everyone, basically from Jesus we should forgive them 70 times 7 mainly I think he said that specific number for a couple reasons I don't know if one would need to forgive the same person past seven hundred and seventy seven times and also the number itself I think has biblical meaning.

I can tell that your hurting and that you are having a hard time forgiving the one who hurt you raped you or whatever they did. But to answer the question of your title when to forgive, every time. even if they continue over and over again and even if you gain nothing in return for forgiving them think about what God did for us. We have hurt him have offended him have done horrible things to him so much that even if we were to try to make up for it for all eternity we never could make up for it.

but then he does something he forgets and forgives all of it as if our debt was never there.

No, I have dealt with that as much as one can after 40 years. This really was mostly about how far our right standing goes. Do we have the right to tell the offender to forgive the targets?

Or, to put it on a level most will get here -- no matter how humble someone acts (and I don't mean you at all, because you aren't an act) -- are we supposed to ask a recurring troll (with the same spiel and still doing the same thing after at least three various user names) to forgive the others for calling him out on his trollish ways, especially since he/she hasn't stop the con game?

Feel sorry for a troll? Sure.

Pray for the troll? Definitely!

Call the troll out for posing as yet another user? Good question. I think it's good to do so. Do you?

But to ask the troll to forgive those who are calling him out? Personally? I don't think so. I'd like proof I'm wrong from the Bible if you want to change my mind. I could be wrong.

And did this just get relatable to those reading this thread? Now that you know what it's about, is that a game changer? I don't think it should be, so I really have been asking what does the Bible say? I am not the brightest bulb in the box, so if I'm getting this wrong, let me know.

It IS personal to me. As mentioned before I am Mama Bear, so don't mess with my bros. Especially the ones who will lean over backwards to help. It irks me! It doubly irks me that someone else thinks I need to be forgiven for this, when denying what is being said. Infuriates me when we're to be forgiven all the while the troll is lying about God!

 

[Depleted]

This might disappoint you, Depleted, but I think we agree on this one. Once the person has repented of their sin, we forgive them. Until then we protect ourselves.

Not to worry. We still don't agree. lol

No, we have to forgive whether the offender repents or not. God forgave us before we repented. His forgiveness is the cause, not the effect. We don't have to forgive for the benefit of the offender, although that would be good when possible. We have to forgive to avoid the bitterness of unforgiving. Again, because God forgave us.

BUT this is more about when and to whom, and if someone else can ask the offender to forgive us of what we aren't guilty of... or might be guilty of.

This one should get you to understand my position better. Should I ask you to forgive another member on here? Do I even have the right standing to do that?

And you know I'm rough, so it's easy to say No to me doing that. Then does Blain have the right standing to ask you to forgive me while I'm still in the middle of an offense to you? (Blain* doesn't act christianly. He is one of a few people on this board who shows what Christian ought to be. If I'm not pointing to him, OldeThenNew* is also that, as is Psychmom.* We really can agree I'm not often.) Does anyone have the right standing to ask an offender to forgive a target during the offense?


*And to those I pointed to as being the Christians we could all work towards being, don't get a swelled head. I don't think you're perfect at it. I have no proof you aren't, but I just don't think anyone is perfect at it. lol

 

[resurrection33]

Not to worry. We still don't agree. lol

No, we have to forgive whether the offender repents or not. God forgave us before we repented. His forgiveness is the cause, not the effect. We don't have to forgive for the benefit of the offender, although that would be good when possible. We have to forgive to avoid the bitterness of unforgiving. Again, because God forgave us.

BUT this is more about when and to whom, and if someone else can ask the offender to forgive us of what we aren't guilty of... or might be guilty of.

This one should get you to understand my position better. Should I ask you to forgive another member on here? Do I even have the right standing to do that?

And you know I'm rough, so it's easy to say No to me doing that. Then does Blain have the right standing to ask you to forgive me while I'm still in the middle of an offense to you? (Blain* doesn't act christianly. He is one of a few people on this board who shows what Christian ought to be. If I'm not pointing to him, OldeThenNew* is also that, as is Psychmom.* We really can agree I'm not often.) Does anyone have the right standing to ask an offender to forgive a target during the offense?


*And to those I pointed to as being the Christians we could all work towards being, don't get a swelled head. I don't think you're perfect at it. I have no proof you aren't, but I just don't think anyone is perfect at it. lol

Until a person repents, we protect ourselves. Then we forgive. If someone is beating you with a baseball bat, you're not thinking about forgiveness. You're thinking about escaping the baseball bat.

 

[Depleted]

Response in red through your post.

With the mind of Christ, we can know that the truth of God is the foundation of our decision-making and that He has everything under control.

Whether we have understanding in our flesh about a situation or not, we can know of a truth in our heart that if we submit our mind to the Lord, He will work things out perfectly and we are set free to trust Him with it, 100%. Like a child holding to his or her father’s hand and not having to worry about a thing.

All things really DO work out good for those who love the Lord. Loving Him enough to trust Him with your life.

Otherwise, if it is my own understanding, I am the center of my decision-making.

The factors involved would be:
1. What emotions are motivating me at that particular moment (pride, anger, self-righteousness, shame, hate, jealousy, fear, lust, greed, doubt, unforgiveness, etc.) It's either self-righteous or righteous anger. If I knew, I wouldn't be asking.
2. Any deep-rooted bias that lies in my heart of which I don’t even perceive Always deep-rooted bias. Sometimes I perceive it.
3. The limited information I have about something or someone Yup, but it's not like I just met the person.
4. The carnal mind, which at every single moment rejects God being in control of it Not every given moment, or God doesn't have me. But I'm sure some of my old mind still lingers.

How in the world do I expect to resolve a conflict with those faulty particulars? Practice? IDK. Are you a mom? If so, haven't you resolved conflicts with your kids? If not a mom, how about at work or with your family and friends? I'll grant it's not perfect or smooth, but we really do resolve conflicts every day... if we're not hermits. It’s insane to think I can judge things or people fairly based on my own biased preconceptions! If I don’t act on things with the mind of Christ, if my decision-making isn't with God's perfect fairness, I’m in error. What if it is trying to work with the mind of Christ? I wouldn't be asking this, if I didn't want to be fair.

Mind you, I’m in error all the time.

No you're not. Sometimes, but not all the time. (Don't you hate it when someone knows you that well? lol) My flesh, that is. My flesh never shuts up proclaiming its rights and its opinions! Ah! Okay. Maybe then. Nevertheless, neither does the Holy Spirit stop overcoming my weakness at every moment. Each step we take we are learning to trust Christ Jesus in our spirit more and more and putting less and less faith in our selfish flesh. And each time we do, our spiritual life gets easier and sweeter because we see how in control God really is in us and in those around us. I have GOT to get to that easier part eventually.

 

[BeyondET]

Until a person repents, we protect ourselves. Then we forgive. If someone is beating you with a baseball bat, you're not thinking about forgiveness. You're thinking about escaping the baseball bat.

Yes I agree during the attack you do the best you can to protect yourself rather the person repents or not is up to them. in my view we should forgive though that is measured in oneself only the victim can determine that.