When to forgive

[Depleted]

You know God treasures a heart that honest with him and he doesn't have wrath built up for you if your angry with him. he can read your heart anyways he knows if your angry he knows your misgivings your irritation with him but he wants to hear it from you. I have been angry at him sometimes, but I always want to have an honest relationship with him and I knew he could read my heart anyways. in all honesty I let him have it I poured all my anger all my irritations and frustrations with him I did not hold back. I was angry with him for a certain issue that I have dealt with for a long time but the funny thing is I wasn't able to heal from that problem until I really told God how I was feeling how angry I was.

I mean I did not relent and knowing him I didn't fear a lightning strike, I truly believe because I was honest even with my anger in him that he and I became much closer

When angry with God, I go at it from one of two ways:

1. The right way, when I let him know everything I'm feeling and then expect an answer. (Not necessarily immediately, but quickly. And as just shown, his answer is never the answer I'm expecting, even though, when I discover it, it's always the right answer.)
2. The wrong way. I give him the silent treatment.

That's when he tends to treat me like a mouse in the house. He doesn't set traps. He just waits for me to get somewhat near a door and then sweeps me out to where I belong.

Sometimes I stay away from the door. (And, remember. He is The Door! He is The Way.) It reminds me of our old cat. We wouldn't take him on vacation with us. (He hated the car, pranced and yowled the entire time in a car, and it was 10-12 hours to where we vacationed. Once there, what if he got out? He might not find us again before we had to leave to come home.) So when we came home, unpacked and then finally settle in the living room to watch TV, he strategically placed himself between both of us and the TV, making sure his back was toward us, and his tail was furiously twitching. That kind of silent treatment. lol

Sometimes I'd forget to avoid the door.

But usually I got in the right vicinity so God could sweep me out and remind me I belong out with him, not in a foodless/waterless house.

The first way of getting angry with God is easier and quicker. Usually by the time I'm done, he's already hugging me and reminding me this is all for my good. I'm pretty sure he chuckles, since by the time it's over, I'm chuckling too. Not that it doesn't still hurt, but how can I not when Dad's hugging me and kissing the booboo when I'm in my 50's? lol

 

[Depleted]

we have (as it were) crossed swords before, You seem to think (assumed by your answers to my former posts, please forgive me if I am wrong) that I have a wishy washy attitude to sin. On the contrary, but I am going to let you in on something that happened to me, I have never written of this before in this way.

I had invited a friend of mine (we had known each other for years) to the opening of an Inn near where I lived. He bought with him four friends, 3 male and 1 female, Our history was based on narcotics of one form or another so a good night was expected by all, and the motorcycle club I was with had planned a bit of a party afterwards and the landlord had said we could use the spare rooms in the Inn to sleep off the nights revelry.

The thing was I had grown up a bit, got married and moved on, I still liked the weed and a bit of amphetamine now and then, but my focus was my wife and children and work and motorcycle. This particular evening was arranged when we met by chance while out shopping. He instantly took a dislike to my family but I did not pick up on it.

My youngest daughter fell ill the day before and she and my eldest daughter had already arranged to go to their grandmothers that weekend but the youngest ended up staying in bed at home, so when my 'friends' arrived the woman they bought stayed with my wife and all the men went to the pub for some fun.

He knew what was going to happen and had planed it accordingly, he could not bare that I was contented with my lot which did not include him so he bought with him 10 LSD microdots. He knew the pub had a special beer as a feature from which 4 pint jugs of ale would be dispensed and his plan was to sabotage the jugs with the LSD and then have fun of his own.

He knew I was not gay and that "I was still a virgin" and it was his intention to "break me in" along with any others who would be there. His plans were thwarted when his lady friend stayed at home with my wife and my youngest, because she had the LSD. By 10:30 that evening he was a bit drunk and getting angry, members of the club I was with were getting nervous and we decided to leave early, even though the driver of the rented bus had had too much to drink we left.

When I got home I found my wife sat on the stairs with the poker in her hand covered in blood mumbling "She will not get to her" meaning my youngest. there was a certain amount of confusion which lasted about 30 minutes before they left.
She, had given all the LSD to my wife in a 2Ltr bottle of beer and had then tried to erase her mind with pictures of a spider with big teeth, this ploy didn't work because my wife was insect friendly but the beating she took was meant for me, she pulled out her fingernails with pliers, she hung her by the dogs chain lead to the bannisters while she then raped her with an unopened beer bottle, the type with a metal cap. She broke her collar bone, fractured and her eye socket and this carried on all night until we got back. My wife died four years later, she developed anorexia and never really recovered.

The upshot is yes we are to forgive and we are to forgive ourselves, I think this one is one of the most important things Jesus has done with me, allowing me to forgive myself and allowing me to be able to forgive my former friend and his companions.

My life now is so far from those days as to be unreal, but those days have left a thorn in my side which by Gods grace I have to live with. I am now so blessed that my youngest daughter through her illness slept through it all and my eldest wasn't there.If anything like this were to happen now I do not know how I would react, not that I try to put my new family in harms way.

I know that I have a propensity to flare up when I feel my family is threatened and going to the cross is my only way to calm down. I know how much I have been forgiven and the things I have done although now sunk in the deepest part of the sea by His grace are still in memory and make me wince when they come to mind, and my language can be choice at times turning the air purple with pink spots, but in Christ I know that a coal from the alter has been put to my lips, and my heart and my uncleanness is made clean by His blood.

The Lord has put on my heart the salvation of 300.000.000 in Europe, and this is just my heart, I know there are more out there who feel for their continent and I know the Holy Spirit is going to make a really big splash in the sea of this world, but afterwards a great evil is going to sweep over the world, and I fear for all my children, those grown up and those still at home.

I have earnestly petitioned God to keep my children safe, I do not want my children to go through what I have or be touched by even a 100th of it. I am getting older and my strength is failing and I can not protect those I love as I used to be able to and I have to trust God to do it, I have to show my children by my actions what forgiveness is and how it encompasses everything, even those who are doing the hurting while they are doing the hurting.

I can in all honesty say I hope to hold and hug and love my former friend and his four companions within the Kingdom because then they too will know the saving power of Jesus. The holy Spirit has let me know also that If I do not forgive them I am stopping God from judging them on that point in their lives, and that even though I have forgiven them and asked God to do so, they will still have to answer to God for the lives they have lived when He returns. As will we all.

Here's as much as I think of you in reality. I have two kinds of senses with people -- a memory and a feeling.

My feeling when I see your username is warm. Warm like inside a house after being outside in a blizzard, not the warmth of a fire, but warm after a chill, nonetheless. To me, that means you're one of the good guys. We're not up to friends yet, but friendship is possible. We are bros/family. (Yeah, I'm a woman, but it's just easier to go with bros. lol)

When I saw your username before I started reading what you wrote, my mind thought, "the guy expecting a Jesus Movement in Europe." (I came out of the Jesus Movement, so that's a good thing in my mind. I really do love it when God does an honest-to-goodness revival. It truly is amazing to watch as it affects more than just Christians. It affects everyone around, even if they never plunge into The Water.) I'm not as sure as you are that that will happen again in our lifetime. Maybe your daughters' but not ours. I say that while looking at history and checking out how many there have been in just the time Europeans remembered there is a place called North America. (From around the 1600's to now.) It seems about once every 70-90 years. Then again, I only see patterns from that kind of mathematical mind, and this mind isn't a percentage of how observant God is, and he's got the ability to effect change, so mine is nothing but observing. Meaning just because I'm not as sure as you are, doesn't mean I'm right.

We have clashed. I honestly don't remember our clash, but I don't think I missed clashing on anyone I know. I'm as sure of what I know as I am unsure of what I do not know. Maybe my avatar ought to be a sign that says, "Prove me wrong," because that's what I'm after all the time. (Actually, it is there, if people get to know the teddy bears. They are me, so they're kind of soft looking, but stubborn as me. lol)

I am heartbroken by your experience. I know what it is to be powerless to protect the ones we love. We're taught we can and should by the world, yet God teaches us we can't and should go to him for protection, even when he chooses to have Pharisees kill us/let us be hung upside down on a cross (if that story is true)/get shipwrecked/get sick close to death/put in prison for what we didn't do or for what we did do/get stuck in a very tight stomach of a fish with stomach acids bleaching us and eroding our skin for three days. He never promised us a rose garden. We tend to get worn by the troubles we go through, but he is faithful to work out even the worst of things for our good and his glory.

Yeah, we're going to butt heads again. (Have I missed anyone on the head butting? Because, if I have, it was purely by accident.) Please don't confuse that with me not liking you. If I don't like you, I'll tell you in no uncertain terms.

The feelings I get when I see someone -- on here or in real life -- tell me all I need to know about a person. You are the warmth of a house after a blizzard. That's the feeling you give off when I can't remember why. And it's not your theology. I still see things in your post I disagree with, but we're bros and your warm, so we'll probably butt heads again.

And I understand why your wife went to anorexia. We think we're in control of our lives. If something horrible happens and we find out we're not, it is the human impulse to take some control over something. Food is the logical choice. I ache that she never realized her control sat on those stairs after that vicious attack. When she said the best thing she could say at that moment -- "She will not get to her." She protected her daughter despite everything. She was a hero yet never truly understood that.

I was hitchhiking to get back to my home on a deserted road late one Sunday night. Five guys in a convertible stopped as they headed the opposite way, told me they were going for a beer run and then would go back the same way, so did I want a ride? How out of control was I to say Yes? (In the US, I didn't even know any liquor stores are open late on a Sunday night. There was one, and these guys knew that.) That's the moment of sheer-stupidity. That's the moment that could have haunted me forever, and yet, with help, others, who have been just as stupid, showed me where my slim control was. Five guys. One me. One very small house in the middle of nothing, and yet -- it took them five hours. The rape wasn't very long. The five hours was mostly me trying to beat the ever-loving crap out of five guys! (And I can't fight well.) That's my moment of sitting on the steps saying, "She will not get to her." That's where I see the hero in your wife. I just wish she had learned that. At least I hope you can see the hero in her.

That said, I wasn't just asking when we should start forgiving, but when it's okay for someone else to ask the offender to forgive us while he's still offending. I know we have to forgive, but during? During would take a major miracle to get me there. During with someone asking the offender to forgive me might just go beyond parting-of-the-Red-Sea miracle-size!

 

[Depleted]

My brother lived in a house with other christian room mates years ago. A friend of him came over, I was there too and apparently he said something wrong which offended a room mate. So he said: Oh I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?
The guy, totally serious, said: Wait.
He waited a few minutes and then said: Okay, I forgive you.
Oh my goodness gracious me.

LOL I've done that! (I figure no use saying I've forgiven you, if I haven't, so give me the time to get there.) Although, most of the time it's not just minutes later.

 

[Utah]

LOL - ok well- this is an extreme example - I guess an extreme reply might be appropriate?

Just think how CONFUSED a thief would be if you started handing over your stuff to him

He would be dumbfounded - he would question why --- it might even create a good opportunity to witness

At the very least God would surely be proud that you chose to give the thief your cloak as well - rather than fight over your stuff that perishes.

It would definitely be a good opportunity to witness, and I would rejoice in doing so, however the perpetrator would be neutralized first, and if that meant severe blood loss on his part, then so be it.

 

[psychomom]

It would definitely be a good opportunity to witness, and I would rejoice in doing so, however the perpetrator would be neutralized first, and if that meant severe blood loss on his part, then so be it.

Utah, you think we don't know you're a (secret) mush?

 

[Utah]

Utah, you think we don't know you're a (secret) mush?

I'm a total mush.

 

[psychomom]

about this mama bear thing... (since i don't really know the answer to the real question Lynn is asking)...

i don't usually do it properly, regardless of what my darling husband may say.

but, i do believe the Lord would have us take up the case of the hurting and helpless.
it's what He does, isn't it? especially for His own.

i'm thinking about Zech. 3. wait, lemme get it...

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.”
Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by. (Zech 3:1-5)

sigh. 'is this not a brand plucked from the fire?' the Gospel.
the Lord's rebuke is mighty strong words. when He rebukes seas, they dry up. when He rebukes a storm, it stops. it always accomplishes what He means it to do.

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. (Ps 82:3)

(but, ellie... do it HIS way )

 

[bikerchaz]

Thank you, bless you. I look forward to a good head butt.
God bless.

 

[Blain]

dear heart, think you my natural born children never gave us any problems??

that's part of the name of the parenting game. our son had the habit of flaring into anger and biting his three older sisters when he was a year old. and that's the tip of the iceberg
(by the time said son was almost 5 and his little sister was born he nurtured her and called her his lovin' darlin' lol. he's now 28 and the kindest young man you could meet ♥ )
(of course, i'm not biased at all )

no, problems are to be expected when you have children. but God has placed such love in the heart of (sob! most) parents you deal with them gladly and with all that love behind it.

come to my house and be all the problem you want.

my heart aches just thinking of it really, as a kid I was nowhere near the person I am. I mean I was beyond hyper I never listened to anyone and I always did and said the dumbest things not mention I stole from stores a few times. Who I am now i could allow but who I was I just couldn't bear it to have you have go deal with that person I was.

To ever put a burden on you like that for you to have to deal with that person I was I just couldn't allow that I care far to much about you.

 

[Blain]

When angry with God, I go at it from one of two ways:

1. The right way, when I let him know everything I'm feeling and then expect an answer. (Not necessarily immediately, but quickly. And as just shown, his answer is never the answer I'm expecting, even though, when I discover it, it's always the right answer.)
2. The wrong way. I give him the silent treatment.

That's when he tends to treat me like a mouse in the house. He doesn't set traps. He just waits for me to get somewhat near a door and then sweeps me out to where I belong.

Sometimes I stay away from the door. (And, remember. He is The Door! He is The Way.) It reminds me of our old cat. We wouldn't take him on vacation with us. (He hated the car, pranced and yowled the entire time in a car, and it was 10-12 hours to where we vacationed. Once there, what if he got out? He might not find us again before we had to leave to come home.) So when we came home, unpacked and then finally settle in the living room to watch TV, he strategically placed himself between both of us and the TV, making sure his back was toward us, and his tail was furiously twitching. That kind of silent treatment. lol

Sometimes I'd forget to avoid the door.

But usually I got in the right vicinity so God could sweep me out and remind me I belong out with him, not in a foodless/waterless house.

The first way of getting angry with God is easier and quicker. Usually by the time I'm done, he's already hugging me and reminding me this is all for my good. I'm pretty sure he chuckles, since by the time it's over, I'm chuckling too. Not that it doesn't still hurt, but how can I not when Dad's hugging me and kissing the booboo when I'm in my 50's? lol

That is just too beautiful...

 

[Blain]

about this mama bear thing... (since i don't really know the answer to the real question Lynn is asking)...

i don't usually do it properly, regardless of what my darling husband may say.

but, i do believe the Lord would have us take up the case of the hurting and helpless.
it's what He does, isn't it? especially for His own.

i'm thinking about Zech. 3. wait, lemme get it...

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.”
Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by. (Zech 3:1-5)

sigh. 'is this not a brand plucked from the fire?' the Gospel.
the Lord's rebuke is mighty strong words. when He rebukes seas, they dry up. when He rebukes a storm, it stops. it always accomplishes what He means it to do.

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. (Ps 82:3)

(but, ellie... do it HIS way )

Something tells me he understands your motherly instincts

 

[resurrection33]

And how much space do I have in my mind to forgive? Gotta tell you, most of me is thinking of sticking something between his foot and my shin. The other part is thinking, "Ow! That hurts!"

Forgiving isn't so hard AFTER he stops kicking you in the shins. Before he stops kicking you, you're protecting yourself. I think everybody else is protecting themselves in that situation, also, even if they don't admit it.

 

[Depleted]

about this mama bear thing... (since i don't really know the answer to the real question Lynn is asking)...

i don't usually do it properly, regardless of what my darling husband may say.

but, i do believe the Lord would have us take up the case of the hurting and helpless.
it's what He does, isn't it? especially for His own.

i'm thinking about Zech. 3. wait, lemme get it...

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.”
Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by. (Zech 3:1-5)

sigh. 'is this not a brand plucked from the fire?' the Gospel.
the Lord's rebuke is mighty strong words. when He rebukes seas, they dry up. when He rebukes a storm, it stops. it always accomplishes what He means it to do.

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. (Ps 82:3)

(but, ellie... do it HIS way )

(Muttermuttermutter. Stupid rep thingy. Wants me to spread reps around. Muttermuttermutter. I do! But Mom needs a rep now!!!)

I'd so rep you if I could for this! Thank you!

 

[Depleted]

my heart aches just thinking of it really, as a kid I was nowhere near the person I am. I mean I was beyond hyper I never listened to anyone and I always did and said the dumbest things not mention I stole from stores a few times. Who I am now i could allow but who I was I just couldn't bear it to have you have go deal with that person I was.

To ever put a burden on you like that for you to have to deal with that person I was I just couldn't allow that I care far to much about you.

Pffft. Hyper and a bit of a shoplifter. So, not good nor bad.

Just to keep you up on a typical family of kids, here's the shortened version of stuff we did as kids. (There are six of us, and I'm taking a little from each -- except the youngest. He seems the only one of us born with common sense. I am permanently perplexed by him, but I'm also happy he wasn't the morons the rest of us were.)
-- There's that episode with those acres of woods were burned down.
-- Oh, and that bullet that shot out the basement window.
-- Do I mention the stamps and candy stolen from stores? Nah, how about I go with money out of our parent's wallets? Worse yet. Mom had a $10 a week allowance. (Early 60's so that's about $100 a week now, I think.) All her money was taken.
-- Smothered by a pillow, almost drowned on purpose, locked in closet often. Locked in the bathroom more often to avoid asphyxiation and claustrophobia.
-- Dad found two cases of beer in the shrubs. Two cases of beer equaled four weeks of allowance. None of us saved allowance for four whole weeks! Nor did we pitch in together to buy anything.
-- That tissue that burned way too quickly over the stove, so fell to the floor.
-- That dish towel that burned slower so made it into the sink first.
-- The neighbor's bread boxes on their front steps were all raided. We had more bread than we needed. Our neighbors had none. (Mom did find out, so the bread was taken back to where it all belonged by the culprit... in his little red wagon, no less. lol)
-- There were no pumpkins nor jack 'o lanterns outside in my neighborhood by October 29th. Almost every neighbor had at least one a week before. They all had to clean up pumpkin goop off their sidewalk though.
-- Do you know what an egg smells like if you boil it in water until the water evaporates? I hope not. I do.
-- Kids really shouldn't jump off a ten-foot-high garage roof, should they? Once wasn't enough. I lost count somewhere around the tenth time. (Three of us did that one. The only reason the other three didn't is because we moved, so they didn't have that garage to jump off.)
-- Some guy chased us for setting off a trap that made it sound like his car broke bad when he passed by two trees on either side of the road. Why did he chase us? None of the other drivers did?
-- Why was that guy so upset when we popped out of that big pile of leaves we made across the road? Just because he was driving down that road? We popped out in time!
-- Oh, oh, ohh! Then there is drug rehab. Two of us went. Three should have but either quit on their own or never quit. One never got into drugs. (I have no idea why he didn't. There are only two examples he could learn from in my family -- addicts or enablers.)

All kids are morons that do stupid things. Sometimes they grow out of it. Sometimes they don't. Most parents know this because they remember what they did as kids. They have kids knowing this before they have kids. You weren't a terrible kid. You were normal! You were acting out from frustration from other things happening to you, which actually makes you a good kid. Now you're supernaturally good.

 

[Blain]

Depleted your family... sounds fun there is no such thing as perfect family and it's the imperfections that make a family a true family. The idiotic and dumb things they do and say the awkward moments the fights and messes but at the end of the day knowing that you are loved knowing that while your family is beyond far from perfect you wouldn't trade them for the world.

This is the kind of family I have always longed for

 

[JennaLeanne]

LOL - ok well- this is an extreme example - I guess an extreme reply might be appropriate?

Just think how CONFUSED a thief would be if you started handing over your stuff to him

He would be dumbfounded - he would question why --- it might even create a good opportunity to witness

At the very least God would surely be proud that you chose to give the thief your cloak as well - rather than fight over your stuff that perishes.

Amen. I love this reply... Heap burning coals upon heads... ahhh I just love to bless those that hurt me, true love xx

 

[thepsalmist]

I yelled out to God when I was being raped. Yes, the guys paused. All of them. (I couldn't see their faces, but I saw everyone go still.) And then one raised an axe over my head and told me to shut up. I had my winter coat on (the only thing I could grab from the clothes they ripped off me.) The style back then included a hood, which, at that moment, was over my head. I had just enough movement on one hand that was held down next to me to fling the hood off my neck to give him a better shot, and told him to do it. He put down the axe as I went back to begging God again.

(At which time, he produced a baseball bat and expected a different result from me. Same result, except the hood was already off my head.)

Sometimes it's not just a walkman or a coat. I'm still verbal and offensive. (Mom taught me as I was growing up that a good defense is a great offense, so I'm usually offensing it, even defensively. lol)

I really do think stealing my stuff is way too easy for my question. How about stealing you? Who you are? Something so personally you that no way, no how are you ever giving it away?

............I'm so sorry you had to go through such a thing.

(hugs)

 

[sharkwhales]

It has come to my attention that some folks think we're supposed to forgive even as the offender continues the offense. So, if you come home and someone is robbing your house, help them take the stuff out and show them where the good stuff is. If they plan to shoot you, give them more bullets, in case they run out before they're done. If they insult you, give them more words to use. (I think I've done that one. lol) If they rape you...

Well, you get the idea.

What do you think?

Oh, and if you think we should forgive during, does that then give you the right standing to ask the offender to forgive all the other victims/targets too?

First off I don't think forgiving means cooperating or trusting. In any kind of relationship, forgiveness can be given and received freely. Trust has to be rebuilt. Forgiveness means you drop the hate or bitterness or any sort of spiritual charge against them before God. Forgiveness clears the space for God to begin working, transforming the situation, restoring relationship, or at least restoring and healing the person who forgave. This is always beneficial to us as it's not our position to judge them as good or evil, and if we do, the enemy can use our judgement against us.

However we can judge them to be dangerous or not in control of themselves and do whatever we need to, to stop them.

That is not morally judging their eternity -- which is God's position -- it is being wise and taking care of what God gave us; our bodies, our property, our children, etc.

As for giving a man your shirt when he takes your cloak, I think that is an extreme graciousness that must be heartfelt, or Spirit-led in that moment. As in you know God wants you to do that in that specific situation, or you have such a heart of compassion for a person that you will reverse their wrong by doing good to them. I do not think it means, do whatever criminals want you to do.

The reason I think that is situational, is that religious spirits can then take a person and tell them if they don't obey bad people they are a bad christian. This then can become an action out of fear and guilt instead of an action from God's heart. There is a time for gracious giving and there is a time for graciously withholding and, I guess you would say, maintaining boundaries. We should always be following God's lead regardless -- but it will not always be 'do whatever they want because that's loving'... love does bend but only if there is hope that the person's heart will be reached, and a change can occur. Past that point love does not bend. That's how I see it for now, at least.