Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[FreeNChrist]

"In Romans 6, Paul deals with the natural mind’s tendency to misunderstand the grace of God. “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may increase?”… The natural mind thinks, “If grace covers my sin, why not continue so that grace can be magnified?” Its definition of grace would be that grace frees me from the penalty of sin, so I can go satisfy myself with no fear of punishment. This is obviously tempting to those of us who experience the painful compulsion to indulge in addictive behaviors. But such an assumption is a total misunderstanding of the grace of God.

The focus of God’s grace is not just on the penalty of my sin, but my bondage to sin on this side of heaven. Grace did not come just to pay my penalty so I could live in the bondage of working sin. It came to set me free from the power of sin in self-consciousness in my own life and even from my bondage to those who have sinned against me… God desires not only to free you from the penalty of sin but to free you from the power of sin. That’s why it is foolish to believe you can be a partaker of grace and continue on nonchalantly in a life of ungodliness."

Dudley Hall, Grace Works

 

[Nikki84]

well, apart from the grace of God, without which none of us would be here, how do you see this> that is, maybe answer your own question please?

we also have grace to be civil even if we disagree...that is the bond of peace...we must each apply it

I believe one way of Grace is through repentance and forgiveness. I believe it can be replenished when sin gets in the way

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Excellent word...

Actually if you do a study of Jude 1:4 the Greek word for "turn" ( in KJV ) the grace of God into licentiousness -- the Greek word means "to exchange"..

In Jude 4 he was saying that there are those that "exchange" the grace of God for licentiousness. It doesn't say that the people are using grace to do what they want..it actually says they are exchanging it...or another term is "replacing" grace.

Every other place in the NT where this word was used it means " to take the place of"...it's really interesting to study the use of the word.

These people Jude was warning about were not under grace at all nor where they trying to make it something else. They were "exchanging" it for doing what they want.

...another profound point. Thank you Grace777x70--I am continually blessed by your input in these threads.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Not sure what you mean..

Licentious is same as OSAS?

It's not the same unless you consider OSAS to be "extreme grace" or "hypergrace" (ie License to Sin).

I have seen folks refer to OSAS and Hypergrace as "extreme grace" here in these threads.
When they do this, I think this shows a misunderstanding of the OSAS doctrine (and it's [rarely] clearly defined in these threads).

A common mistake I see, is people seem quick to jump on some specific wording and immediately "call someone out" and lump them in with one extreme crowd or the other--when really the issue is simply a misuse of words, using inaccurate words, or a simple misunderstanding between two parties.

I sincerely hope this is not the case with you and PeterJ, but I fear it is. He still hasn't revealed any personal details to me concerning his background in the English language--but many of his posts are very difficult to understand. I fear some (including you) may have jumped to conclusions before seeking further clarification. I truly do not know if this is the case, and it would be futile for me to attempt to figure this out by my own abilities.

At this point, all I can do is pray. My hope is that God will reconcile you two in such a way that you are both seeing eye-to-eye and understanding each other.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's not the same unless you consider OSAS to be "extreme grace" or "hypergrace" (ie License to Sin).

I have seen folks refer to OSAS and Hypergrace as "extreme grace" here in these threads.
When they do this, I think this shows a misunderstanding of the OSAS doctrine (and it's never clearly defined in these threads).

A common mistake I see, is people seem quick to jump on some specific wording and immediately "call someone out" and lump them in with one extreme crowd or the other--when really the issue is simply a misuse of words, using inaccurate words, or a simple misunderstanding between two parties. I sincerely hope this is not the case with you and PeterJ, but I fear it is. He still hasn't revealed any personal details to me concerning his background in the English language--but many of his posts are very difficult to understand. I fear some (including you) may have jumped to conclusions before seeking further clarification. I truly do not know if this is the case, and it would be futile for me to attempt to figure this out by my own abilities. At this point, all I can do is pray. My hope is that God will reconcile you two in such a way that you are both seeing eye-to-eye and understanding each other.

Some of us here have been dealing with PeterJens for many months, we have not 'jumped to any conclusions', and would have stopped EG if he had done so himself. You, OTOH, have jumped to conclusions. Just sayin'.

 

[Budman]

Two can play this game

Oh, indeed.

Your game: Making statements such as we have to abstain from sin or we lose our salvation, and that God gives you the power to obey and not sin.

Then admitting you sin every day.

You are one of the most grandiose hypocrites on this board.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Some of us here have been dealing with PeterJens for many months, we have not 'jumped to any conclusions', and would have stopped EG if he had done so himself. You, OTOH, have jumped to conclusions. Just sayin'.

I entered the conversation much later than some of you, yes.
The conclusions I am drawing are based on what I have seen during my time here.

The more important conclusion is that both "sides" (Peter et al) could stand to improve in their public interactions with others -- myself included!

 

[ember]

I believe one way of Grace is through repentance and forgiveness. I believe it can be replenished when sin gets in the way

do you have a definition from scripture?t

the main problem here, is that folks (don't take that personally) are presenting their own ideas

I provided two post...two identical posts...both with a link...that provide the answer to what constitutes grace

can't you see that if it were not for grace we could not even repent of sin?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Extreme Grace: "I have a 'license to sin' because no matter what I do in this life, Christ has already saved me."

Extreme Legalism: "I have to be careful all my actions and words are perfect, or I will burn in Hell."

The first is correct. This also applies to OSAS. A person holding these beliefs may or may not adopt such an attitude, but they will certainly use this belief to excuse sin.

The second is more of a mischaracterization than not. Godly people also avoid sin in order to avoid hell. So extreme legalism can be better described as only doing things that you think make you righteous.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Oh, indeed.

Your game: Making statements such as we have to abstain from sin or we lose our salvation, and that God gives you the power to obey and not sin.

Then admitting you sin every day.

You are one of the most grandiose hypocrites on this board.

And you are contrary. If we sin, we have cleansing. It is GOD's will that we remain holy. So I am not a hypocrite even if I sin.

 

[PeterJens]

I entered the conversation much later than some of you, yes.
The conclusions I am drawing are based on what I have seen during my time here.

The more important conclusion is that both "sides" (Peter et al) could stand to improve in their public interactions with others -- myself included!

English is my first language, but I suffer from over thinking things and let ideas work their way out in typing. Because I touch type it means things appear often without enough consideration. Sometime re-reading it helps.

No I do not have a mormon or SDA background. I went to an anglican church, then a open brethren, charismatic congregational, house church, and then an charismatic Baptist church. I am more an ideas thinker type of person, so pursue different ideas.

No I am not extreme legalist. I walk under grace and understand how much the Lord loves me. More than anything I spent years talking to muslims who reject ones conscience plays a role and are extreme legalists in the more fundamental interpretations. It makes you very sensitive to these issue, and super sensitivity to criticism by people.

Unfortunately the extreme grace crowd showed these traits. What was strange was a contradiction. They claimed to not be under condemnation, but often talked about the sins they were doing. Some where totally wrapped up in not walking in the flesh but in the spirit in their daily walk. It appeared like legalism but under different labels. Any pointing out of sin became evil, so your conscience was condemned as satan, and the Holy Spirit never convicted of sin.

It later transpired even reading the law brought condemnation, and the sermon on the mount was meant to condemn me into accepting it is impossible to walk in righteousness, so grace is the only answer. Now I know this feeling, but I do not feel it anymore because I understand the sermon on the mount.

I would not take the advice of man who confessed to be conquered by sin and still does not have victory.

Now I asked a simple question about loving your enemies, but the crowd so not want to answer. I have found this time and again because they actually have no commitment to work through their position because they are scared it will actually fall apart.

Can I loose my salvation? Not if I stay in communion with Christ. All His promises are for those who believe.

 

[PeterJens]

At this point, all I can do is pray. My hope is that God will reconcile you two in such a way that you are both seeing eye-to-eye and understanding each other.

PW I have tried to understand EG position, but he has just repeated the same story.

The truth is when you leave the faith you have some tell tell signs. One is victory over sin. Failure. The second is reducing the power of the cross and significance of love. The third is an emotionally hard heart. EG has shown all these three signs.
Is it possible to grow up in a church, son of the pastor and miss Jesus all together? It appears so.

I am becoming convinced unless you clean your heart and begin to face who you are emotionally, spiritually and physically you never really see the truth. Jesus and the Holy Spirit provide the means, we have to choose and act.

Now all I have done is express my understanding and spiritual walk. I have not done anything else. EG decided because I did not believe in OSAS I was not saved.

 

[Nikki84]

do you have a definition from scripture?t

the main problem here, is that folks (don't take that personally) are presenting their own ideas

I provided two post...two identical posts...both with a link...that provide the answer to what constitutes grace

can't you see that if it were not for grace we could not even repent of sin?

Yes, i do see that. Sorry if I have not made that clear.I also like these words "How precious did that Grace appear, the hour I first believed"

 

[Budman]

And you are contrary. If we sin, we have cleansing. It is GOD's will that we remain holy. So I am not a hypocrite even if I sin.

That is NOT what you keep preaching here. You said, to quote:

You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.

To abstain means to not do something. Yet, you DO NOT abstain from sin, because you've admitted that you sin every day. You keep trying to wiggle out of your statement, but it stands on it's own.

You are, and will remain, a hypocrite, until you admit your theology is aberrant.

 

[PeterJens]

The trap of negation.

If you deny something you can avoid the discussion by just not including it.
I saw this trick used in these statements. We are a religion of peace. We do not murder people. We execute traitors.
Now each of these statements is only half a story. We believe in peace but only to our fellow believers, the rest we are in a total state of war.
We do not murder people. We execute people who disagree with us for blasphemy, and anyone who has gone apostate.
So murder has been redefined. Individuals can kill who they feel has commited blasphemy or apostacy.
Traitors are anyone deemed to have betrayed the faith. This again is fairly random, depending on who you talk to.

Now a statement a believer or the gospel is those who are saved are those who believed on Jesus and nothing more.
But we do believe you should not sin, and you should obey Christ. But we have redefined sin, and repentance, and obedience, and which things you should obey and which not. And we will not tell our definitions and say you are lying if you guess any of them or try and define them, you heathens, who always want to define faith.

And because you dare to define your faith, you legalists, you are not following Christ, because it is all mysterious and undefined. As one leader described his conference "Mystics conference"

One layer down they have positive things are of the Spirit and negative things of the devil. So asking for definition or pointing out problems is evil. Notice a redefinition of spiritual reality and morality.

You cannot critise leaders unless you are a leader, because you have to have equivalent authority. Now this is just off the spectrum of insane junk. But that was a defence used against Joel Ostene and Joyce Meyer. Who are you to question their authority. Go to them in person, and then see how they respond. Now we know how they will respond just like the guys here. Who are you to question me?

This spiritual world has rules all of its own but it is not biblical or of the Lord. It is a mixture of new age, mysticism and any new trend people are into at the moment. And there defence will always be, you are lying, you slanderer. At least we know where these guys are coming from, and it is not a good place.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I don't know if anybody caught it, but on a video I posted recently in which Michael Brown answered questions about hyper grace, the one time he mentioned the gnostic nature of hyper grace was when someone asked why hyper grace rejects both old covenant and Christ's pre-cross teachings.

Who is Michael Brown?

 

[PeterJens]

Who is Michael Brown?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAtlMPvZGxg

This is Michael Brown

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That is NOT what you keep preaching here. You said, to quote:

To abstain means to not do something. Yet, you DO NOT abstain from sin, because you've admitted that you sin every day. You keep trying to wiggle out of your statement, but it stands on it's own.

You are, and will remain, a hypocrite, until you admit your theology is aberrant.

I getting ready to put you on ignore. The will of GOD is to be cleansed when we fail. I have never said that I'm perfect. Doing the will of GOD is to abstain from sin and to repent and be cleansed when we fail.

Goodbye.

 

[Grace777x70]

Who is Michael Brown?

Dr. Brown is the one to come up with the term "hyper-grace"..basically he doesn't agree with some things concerning grace so he used his platform to attack it. He is an Armenian and doesn't believe in the security of the believer in Christ which of course grace-believers do.

Many now use the term hyper-grace in a derogatory way now to malign people that believe in the grace of Christ as Paul preached.

He posted some questions in Charisma Mag on what he called hyper-grace. Here are some rebuttals to his arguments. Most of his accusations are false assumptions. Some other ones he just doesn't agree with, which is fine. All of us have different beliefs in some areas but we all agree on the sacrifice of Jesus at the cross for our sins.

Here are some articles concerning him and a grace believer's response to his acccusations.

“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown – Escape to Reality


Some Honest Answers for Michael Brown – Escape to Reality

 

[Budman]

I getting ready to put you on ignore. The will of GOD is to be cleansed when we fail. I have never said that I'm perfect. Doing the will of GOD is to abstain from sin and to repent and be cleansed when we fail.

Goodbye.

You are putting me on ignore because I've chased you around with your quote that exposes you as a hypocrite, and you have no satisfactory answer for it. You keep trying to add and modify what you clearly said, but your thousands of other posts on this forum say the same thing. You teach if one sins, they forfeit their salvation. You preach that God gives you the power to not sin.

But, of course, you still sin.

You love to point your finger at everyone else, from your lofty, self-righteous throne, and condemn them for doing the exact same thing you are doing; sinning.

So go right ahead and put me on ignore. I consider it a badge of honor. But know this; everyone here has now witnessed your blatant, naked hypocrisy - and you can't squirm your way out of it.