Tongues

[Grace777x70]

Hello. This caught my eye, let's look at this.

"Though I speak with tongues of men and of angels..."

What are the opinions of this statement? I was reading in my bible last night and I saw something that gave me pause for thought, in the book of Acts, 23:8 kjv. I was trying to remember it this morning, but I didn't write it down, and as I read this statement from a post above, I remembered, oh it was about angels.

Anyway, but, as I read a bit of the comments in this thread and then was struck by the use of this statement, I thought, is that a proper use, it doesn't seem so, and I had some scripture come into my mind about angels, devils even, and doctrine, prophesying, language. I am interested in opinions of the quoted statement, what do you think?

I comprehend that when angels speak in scripture, they communicate with words through language. As I saw my thoughts over the use of the quoted scripture above, I reasoned it was a misuse of the context and a product of not keeping under the body and holding to the Head, it was sensationalizing a doctrine of men, imo. What do think?

"tongues of angels", interesting term to examine.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,[SUP]19 [/SUP]And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Let's look at the scripture in context...Paul was talking about all kinds of spiritual and natural activities..and these activities within themselves were nothing if we didn't have love..

Paul is simply stating as far as the languages ( tongues )- is that if he spoke in the tongues of men or of angels and didn't have love....he would have nothing....

this shows to me that there are angelic languages ( at least one ) just like there are human languages. Paul spoke in both types of languages when he prayed with his spirit. 1 Cor 14:2, 14-15

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.


As far as having supposed angels show up in a vision to you and tell you things ( supposedly they would be using a known language to you in order for you to understand them )...if they are against the known gospel - then they are not from God.

Satan himself has his messengers of righteousness. I noticed that these messengers would not be saying "Sin all you want..."..they would be talking about righteousness....most likely self-righteousness as opposed to relying on Christ's righteousness by grace through faith in His finished work.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

OK, do you think "tongues of angels" is a voice? Do you think, "tongues of angels" are an utterance?

Because, praying by the Spirit the scripture says, cannot be "uttered", in Romans 8.

Also, I read if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth... and that "wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... or his understanding is unfruitful. Unfruitful, period. I think some really miss the point of cannot be uttered and with my voice, when considering praying by/with the spirit.

I know a man who is coming out of this thing, "tongue talking", he is quite honest with the experience and what he sees he gave himself too. Very humbling testimony, I can appreciate the love and kindness and humility of the God of charity.

 

[Stephen63]

Another classic deflection. I have not done an despite to the scriptures in fact I have honored them as Gods perfect word. The church comprised of blood bought believers is a small remnant compared to the billions of unsaved people out in the world.

The Holy Spirit never acts in contradiction to the word of God. I have yet to see anyone demonstrate from the bible that what is going on in the modern church is even remotely akin to what was demonstrated in the apostolic church. There are no evidences of angelic tongues. It is evident that Paul was speaking hyperbole when he mentioned angelic tongues. There is not a single scripture of an angel speaking in anything except a human tongue. You can only speculate about angelic tongues or more reasonably use angelic as an adjective not a noun.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You sir, are NOT whom you say you are.

Every time you make statements like these, you totally contradict scripture while arguing with someone who rarely uses scripture at all.

Acts 10:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Now, care to tell us why you BAREFACE LIED to us? Perhaps you're one of the hired trolls Mitzpa warned us about.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

this shows to me that there are angelic languages ( at least one ) just like there are human languages. Paul spoke in both types of languages when he prayed with his spirit. 1 Cor 14:2, 14-15

This, where does the connection of "unknown tongue" and the "tongues of angels" happen? Any other scripture to interpret espousing of this doctrine? Thx I'll be looking and considering this, in all honesty, myself. ttyl

 

[Grace777x70]

OK, do you think "tongues of angels" is a voice? Do you think, "tongues of angels" are an utterance?

Because, praying by the Spirit the scripture says, cannot be "uttered", in Romans 8.

Also, I read if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth... and that "wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... or his understanding is unfruitful. Unfruitful, period. I think some really miss the point of cannot be uttered and with my voice, when considering praying by/with the spirit.

I know a man who is coming out of this thing, "tongue talking", he is quite honest with the experience and what he sees he gave himself too. Very humbling testimony, I can appreciate the love and kindness and humility of the God of charity.

I think speaking in tongues is done with a voice...hence the term "speaking"...

Again we have to look at the scripture about the mind being unfruitful is in relation to the assembly setting...where people can "benefit" or edification of the church from the tongues being spoken.

Contrast that with the personal devotional tongues where our spirit is speaking to God in 1 Cor 14:2 and it is not for the edification of the church but to the believer only. 1 Cor 14:4 says that the one speaking in tongues edifies himself spiritually.

( I have heard some teach that even in devotional tongues we may ask for the interpretation )

1 Corinthians 14:9-18 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

Romans 8 :26 is a different type of praying whereby it refers to groanings by the Holy Spirit

Romans 8:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Do you yourself pray in tongues now?

 

[Grace777x70]

This, where does the connection of "unknown tongue" and the "tongues of angels" happen? Any other scripture to interpret espousing of this doctrine? Thx I'll be looking and considering this, in all honesty, myself. ttyl

"unknown" simply means that it is unknown to the one speaking the tongues...for example I speak English and some French...but I have spoken in tongues in my devotional time with the Lord probably around 15 or so different languages that I could discern anyway. ( some or one may have been an angelic one for all I know...).

All of then were definitely unknown to me... ( someone that could have heard me that knew of one of the languages I was speaking could have identified it...but not me..I use them to speak mysteries by my spirit to my Father and Lord..1 Cor 14:2 )

There is no other scripture that I know of about the language being angelic..to me it's irrelevant whether it's an angelic or an ancient Inca dialect...the purpose is to pray with my spirit to the Lord.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

Contrast that with the personal devotional tongues where our spirit is speaking to God in 1 Cor 14:2 and it is not for the edification of the church but to the believer only. 1 Cor 14:4 says that the one speaking in tongues edifies himself spiritually.

Ok(thx!), but in 1 Cor 14:2,4; it says "unknown tongue", is that the "tongues of angels", where is the scripture to interpret this connection? And, if we have the "mind of Christ" and the "spirit that is of God", how is our praying, 14v2 "in the spirit he speaketh" and 14v14 "my spirit prayeth", different than "ourselves also which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves", when speaking to God(edit post).

I think keeping all things in subjection to "a more excellent way" according to "the increase of God" in faith, hope, love 1 cor 13, for the accomplishment of 1 cor 14 "let all things be done decently and in order", is the goal of the entire thought. (edit post )

I have to go, nice chat.

 

[chancer]

Nice try at the red herring. The Gentiles who spoke were a witness to Jews that were present. Paul attested to such when he recounted the events before James and the other apostles in Jerusalem.

Demonstrate one instance in the modern church where tongues are spoken that resemble Pentecost. I would love to hear of one instance where a speaker spoke and others heard him in their native tongue.


Sad fact remains that none of the tongues followers can even show what the early church spoke in tongues. I really doubt that ecstatic utterances would be convincing even back then.

Jesus never said we would need a secret language to pray. The writer in Hebrews writes that we are to come into the presence of God and to come boldly. We come as children to our heavenly Father not as strangers but as beloved children. My Father in heaven knows my every hearts desire.

You dont demonstrate the supernatural power of God in theory

If you want to speak in tongues its available, if you want to defend your position and deny the power of God with human reasoning, that's also available.

But remember to check your heart, perhaps you aren't open to it because you have put God in a box that makes you feel comfortable, and feel 'hyper spiritual' in ones own understanding. Perhaps there's a little inadequacy, and pride involved? Its rhetorical ...

To be honest I don't mind whether you speak in tongues or don't, doesn't affect me in the slightest, I don't even care if you believe in it or not, what I don't like is when people pretend they are the final authority in all spiritual and scriptural matters. And it certainly comes across, by the manner and attitude within peoples writing. #alluppetyinonesmanner

 

[Complete_In_Him]

"unknown" simply means that it is unknown to the one speaking the tongues...for example I speak English and some French...but I have spoken in tongues in my devotional time with the Lord probably around 15 or so different languages that I could discern anyway. ( some or one may have been an angelic one for all I know...).

All of then were definitely unknown to me... ( someone that could have heard me that knew of one of the languages I was speaking could have identified it...but not me..I use them to speak mysteries by my spirit to my Father and Lord..1 Cor 14:2 )

There is no other scripture that I know of about the language being angelic..to me it's irrelevant whether it's an angelic or an ancient Inca dialect...the purpose is to pray with my spirit to the Lord.

Oh, just seeing this. I'll have to come back to it... maybe. I love Christian discussion! Anyway, I'm back to work, since getting home, adjusting to life take it easy, have a nice day.

 

[BeyondET]

Ok(thx!), but in 1 Cor 14:2,4; it says "unknown tongue", is that the "tongues of angels", where is the scripture to interpret this connection? And, if we have the "mind of Christ" and the "spirit that is of God", how is our praying, 14v2 "in the spirit he speaketh" and 14v14 "my spirit prayeth", different than "ourselves also which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves", when speaking to God(edit post).

I think keeping all things in subjection to "a more excellent way" according to "the increase of God" in faith, hope, love 1 cor 13, for the accomplishment of 1 cor 14 "let all things be done decently and in order", is the goal of the entire thought. (edit post )

I have to go, nice chat.

Unknown tongue is only unknown to those who don't know

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh, just seeing this. I'll have to come back to it... maybe. I love Christian discussion! Anyway, I'm back to work, since getting home, adjusting to life take it easy, have a nice day.

Sounds good...have a great rest of the day. Bless you!...

 

[Grace777x70]

We do have the mind of Christ ( in our inner man ) but we need to have our own mind ( soul) renewed to the truth that is in Christ. This was we will not be double-minded s James talks about.

I have experienced a "groaning" type of praying while praying in tongues but it has been rare for that to occur. I can tell you that it was completely coming from my spirit because my mind was saying while it was happening.."this is different..must be the groaning I have heard others and red about that is happening now )

Jesus Himself "groaned" and sighed in the spirit a few times in the gospels. It is an interesting study.

Have a great work day!...

Ok(thx!), but in 1 Cor 14:2,4; it says "unknown tongue", is that the "tongues of angels", where is the scripture to interpret this connection? And, if we have the "mind of Christ" and the "spirit that is of God", how is our praying, 14v2 "in the spirit he speaketh" and 14v14 "my spirit prayeth", different than "ourselves also which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves", when speaking to God(edit post).

I think keeping all things in subjection to "a more excellent way" according to "the increase of God" in faith, hope, love 1 cor 13, for the accomplishment of 1 cor 14 "let all things be done decently and in order", is the goal of the entire thought. (edit post )

I have to go, nice chat.

 

[wolfwint]

You're mixing up the charismatic movement with the Pentecostal revival. They are nothing alike.

Hm, not really. I know their are partly very big differences and ways how they practice their teaching, and sometimes their are contradict in their teaching to other groups, but what they both have common is that they believe that the gifts of healing, speaking in tongues and the gift of prophecie is today the same like in the time of the apostolic church. A big different of course is that pentecostals have their own church und charismatics going as revivals into ohter churches/denominations. So you can find charismatics ore today called revival groups in nearly every denomination.

 

[jaybird88]

mat 6 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Jesus IMO makes it very clear that our Lord will hear us just fine when we pray. if our Lord hears our prayers in our common language then whats the point of the prayers in the tongue language. does our Lord hear us better? this is what i dont get and what no one seems to be able to explain. if there is a benefit, what is it and why can that benefit not be obtained through praying normally, you know the way Jesus prayed.

 

[HappyGuy]

Paul speaks on tongues in 1 corinthians
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


and then paul speaks on tongues in the body (Believers) of Jesus Christ
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

 

[wolfwint]

I don't know of any pagan groups or your heretic groups that speak in tongues....but IF there is such a thing...it is a counterfeit..satan counterfeits what the Lord does....just look at the miracles that were done by the enemy in front of Pharaoh and Moses.

Anyway -- if you don't want to pray with your spirit to your Lord..you don't have to receive it....it's called a gift for a reason....The HolyuSpirit will not force it on anyone...

when people outright reject scripture then I have as much interest in talking further on this subject as I do wanting to know the ant population of Africa.

Here are some resources for anyone wishing to look at speaking in tongues in church history.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church

Brother, my questions are serious. Why you dont answer them?
I dont believe that the Holy spirit is acting according to which denomination a beliver belongs. If the Charismatic/pentecostal doctrine about the gifts is right, then automaticly all denominations which are not teaching this are wrong! It is not like the doctrines which mennonites distinguish from calvinist ore lutheran f.e. Either the Holy spirit gives his gifts according his will to all believers, doesnt matter which denominations he belongs ore he dont gives it. But he is not giving them according the denomination.

Yes the early church had this gifts in their churches, but they often also were missused and they stopped anyhow after some centurys. Maby they dont need because they had finalized the canon of the scripture.
Heretic groups like the Montanists in the 2nd century you can find in the church history till the Irvingians and so on, but never the sign giftd were teached in the official church (and i dont mean RCC).
From the 4th centuy on we can find a growing movement in the volks with believing in miracles, if they have relikts from the Holys ore from Jesus and what belongs to him. This is shurely not biblical and has nothing to do with god.
I suppose the people today searching also for special events in their spiritual life.
Jesus said: blessed are those who believe without seeing (John 20)

so it would be kind if you please give me answer to my questions

 

[BeyondET]

mat 6 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Jesus IMO makes it very clear that our Lord will hear us just fine when we pray. if our Lord hears our prayers in our common language then whats the point of the prayers in the tongue language. does our Lord hear us better? this is what i dont get and what no one seems to be able to explain. if there is a benefit, what is it and why can that benefit not be obtained through praying normally, you know the way Jesus prayed.

Speaking in tongues is for those that hear it and speak it which God grants for his purposes, one should ask God for the answer if one wants to know

 

[jaybird88]

Speaking in tongues is for those that hear it and speak it which God grants for his purposes, one should ask God for the answer if one wants to know

and exactly what purpose would that be? how does it serve the will of the Father?

 

[BeyondET]

and exactly what purpose would that be? how does it serve the will of the Father?

thats a great question for I'm not God only he knows. I don't want to know myself it may be grand or it maybe a nightmare

im not much on chance I'll just listen and obey.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

mat 6 6
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Yes, our heavenly Father knows what things we need even before we ask him . . . but apparently he wants us to ask him! Many many times we are told to ask in Jesus name. God wants us as His children to come to Him, to converse with Him. If we follow to the "t" the above scripture - we would be in our closet continually for we are told in 1 Thess. 5:17 to pray without ceasing!!
Jesus IMO makes it very clear that our Lord will hear us just fine when we pray. if our Lord hears our prayers in our common language then whats the point of the prayers in the tongue language. does our Lord hear us better? this is what i dont get and what no one seems to be able to explain. if there is a benefit, what is it and why can that benefit not be obtained through praying normally, you know the way Jesus prayed.[/QUOTE]
The point of praying in a tongue is to edify the believer . . . that is the benefit - that is the "profit" for the believer.

He that speaks in an tongue edifies himself; (by himself in prayer to God)

but he that prophesies edifies the church. I would that you all spake with tongues, but rather that you prophesied (in the church): for greater is he that prophesies (in the church) than he that speaks with tongues unless he interprets, that the church may receive edifying. 1 Cor. 14:4,5 . . . In the church, the body of believers, prophesying is greater UNLESS the one who speaks in tongues interprets . . . .

But you beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith praying in the holy Spirit. Jude 20