Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[roaringkitten]

To deny the finished work of Christ by grace through faith alone and to "add" your own self-righteous/holiness works to the equation - IS denying the Lord Jesus.

Amen. To do that is to trample on the precious blood of Jesus.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen. To do that is to trample on the precious blood of Jesus.

That's true...the very worse offenders are those that outright reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross like some of the Hebrews did and were trusting in the temple sacrifices instead.

The works-based salvationists "add" their own works to the blood sacrifice of our Lord. This is one is a lot more subtle then the outright "denying of our Lord" like the Hebrews did.

 

[roaringkitten]

That's true...the very worse offenders are those that outright reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross like some of the Hebrews did and were trusting in the temple sacrifices instead.

The works-based salvationists "add" their own works to the blood sacrifice of our Lord. This is one is a lot more subtle then the outright "denying of our Lord" like the Hebrews did.

Yes, that is plainly disrespectful to the Lord by minimizing His completed work of redemption.

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:21

Us grace believers have always asked with Rom 5:21 in mind:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom 6:1

We keep answering the question with:

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:2

Even the blood of Christ calls for us to serve the living God!

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:14

 

[Angela53510]

You may not want anyone to come back quoting the Word from the Prophets and the Writings. There are volumes written by men of the Holy Spirit who know far more than anyone posting in a forum online.

You could begin with Psalm 119, then checkout Isaiah, Jeremiah, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zacheriah, and all who have witnessed to the goodness and the righteousness conatined in the wisdom of the law, but these all could see without the veil of Moses.

Abraham, hundreds of years before teh law was given, obeyed God. You see there was an oral tradition of the law long before Moses that began with Adam through Noah to Moses.

Again, Jesus Christ teaches in the Gospel, just how to obey the law, and which may be overlooked. Again all may begin with exercising faith, mercy and justice.........this sheds the Light of Christ on all of the law. Living in grace is most natural in observing the law in this manner, but do not believe me, read how Jesus Christ teaches.........

Sorry Jaume, but you have twisted hermeneutics here. You are viewing the New Testament through the eyes of the Old Testament.

We are supposed to instead use the revelation of the New Testament to view the Old Testament. So because the new covenant has been fulfilled by the blood of Christ, it is the lense through which everything was spoken. The Old Testament is not there so we can have 613 laws to follow. It is not even to be used as the basis of warnings to New Testament believers about how to live. The prophets were not speaking to us, but the people of Israel. By thinking they are speaking to us, today, you have taken their words out of context, and twisted it into something that God never meant it to be.

The Old Testament has a clear purpose. It is the history of God's people, before Christ came. The prophecies about Christ, show us how God fulfilled everything in the Old Testment through Jesus. The Old Testament is quoted so many times in the New Testament, because that was the revelation they had in the first century. It is inspired, there is no doubt about that. But it is not meant to supersede anything in the New Testament. And yes, I do believe God can speak to us from the Old Testament, but it must be viewed through the eternal truth of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matt 5:17

You answered Grace's New Testament quotes with Old Testament quotes. That is backwards. Unless you are showing how those quotes point forward to Jesus Christ.

I do respect your faith and love, but you do have your theology backwards. We are not Jews, we are Gentiles, grafted into the vine. (Unless you are actually a Jew who found Christ, but even then, the New Testament needs to be the main source for your theology!)

 

[Angela53510]

Yes dunamis has shades of meaning. I based my comment primarily on TDNT.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

Words of this stem all have the basic sense of ability or capability. dýnamai means a. “to be able” in a general sense, b. “to be able” with reference to the attitude that makes one able, hence sometimes “to will,” and c. (of things) “to be equivalent to,” “to count as,” “to signify.” dynatós means “one who has ability or power,” “one who is powerful”; the neuter adjective signifies “what is possible or practicable.” dynatéō means “to have great ability.” adýnatos means “one who has no ability or strength”; the noun tó adýnaton signifies “impossibility” and adýnatón esti “to be impossible.” adynatéō means “not to be able.” dýnamis, the most important word in the group, means “ability,” then “possibility,” then “power” both physical and intellectual or spiritual. dýnastēs has the sense of “one who can do something” and was early used for “ruler” (including God as ruler). dynamóō and endynamóō both mean “to give power,” “to make strong,” “to strengthen.”​

IMO GOD is more interested in our having ability, than power. That was one of the most important revelations ever.

And [GOD] said [to Elijah], Thou shalt go forth to-morrow, and shalt stand before the Lord in the mount; behold, the Lord will pass by. And, behold, a great [and] strong wind rending the mountains, and crushing the rocks before the Lord; [but] the Lord [was] not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake; [but] the Lord [was] not in the earthquake: and after the earthquake a fire; [but] the Lord [was] not in the fire: and after the fire the voice of a gentle breeze; there was the Lord. ​ 1 Kings 19:11-12​

The minute I read this, and saw the source, I knew what the issue was. A LIBERAL view of Scripture. One which in fact downplays the power of God, and upgrades the "power" or man. Meaning the independence and self sufficiency. Here is a brief review, which made sense after I compared Bauer's definition's with Kittel's above.

If you are looking for an exhaustive reference work for NT Greek usage, then Kittel & Friedrich provide it in their Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Nothing even comes close to the scope of scholarship in this work. However, one note of caution is in order. Many of the theological points made in the work are from a liberal, Neo-orthodox point of view. Therefore, this type of reference is for the advanced Bible or seminary student that possesses a strong foundation in the Christian faith and at least a working knowledge of New Testament Greek.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 Volume Set): Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich: 9780802823243: Amazon.com: Books

So you are basing your theology on liberal scholarship, which really helps me understand why you have such deep and basic flaws in your approach to God, and especially salvation. (I'm really glad I read both your excerpt of Kittle and the review on Amazon, as I will never feel obligated to buy it)

So let us look closely at your twisted theology, one last time. (I am pretty much through with showing you the truth over and over in the Word, in scholarly books, and have you not read it or even try and dispute it Biblically!)

First - your definition is just wrong. it is the most minor part of the meaning of the word "dunamis" in English. It totally denies the power of God - and that it the main definition of all those 6 I posted. And "Power" NOT "ability" it also the majority of uses of the word in the New Testament, and probably in the LXX, although I confess I didn't look for those references, although they were there.But then, what do you expect from someone who reads liberal sources?

Next, you quote 1 Kings 19:11-12. It is a great verse, and it has really spoken to me in amazing ways. Why? Because it is about the way God reveals himself to us.

It is NOT and NEVER WILL BE, about us! It is not about our ability, or us speaking in the small, still voice, as KJV puts it. It is about one of the many ways GOD chooses to speak to us. That is not ability, that is God's sovereign will and choice. God can use whatever method he wants to talk to us. Sometimes that is signs and wonders, like during Jesus ministry, sometimes it is the small still voice, and sometimes it is Balaam's donkey.

So basically, what you have twisted above is the same as if you somehow posted the following to prove your point about ability.

" And the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?” And he said, “No.”31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face."Numbers 22:30-31


Is your ability found in the mouth of a donkey? Or is it God using the donkey, just as God used the metaphor of speaking to Elijah in the gentle wind. As I have said with others, when people come up with such twisting and misuse of the Word of God, it makes me no longer believer anything they write.

Oh yes, I have read a few of the works of Augustine. I also did a paper on his influence on the church with regards to theology. What you keep harping on is pure garbage. It's not that I believe Augustine, or use him as my first reference with regards to theology. But you seem to think all of us have been subtlety influenced by him, and your quotes are so out of order. Do you have a book you read that you keep finding all this questionable material??

Anyway, if you use Augustine as a rebuttal anymore, esp in the flimsy way you keep doing it, not quoting him directly, or the people that have been influenced in their theology, you are going on ignore.

You misquote the Bible to your own ends, you have a very limited understanding of anything theological, mostly based on heretical sources, not the actual Bible, and you have an agenda which is based on the weakest of arguments.

Like others, I am pretty fed up with you. I will pray that God will prick your conscience, so that you will be encouraged to read the Bible and stay away from all these questionable sources and references. And that you will understand the power of God in your heart and life, and this delusion that sanctification is all about "you" is a lie from the devil.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The minute I read this, and saw the source, I knew what the issue was. A LIBERAL view of Scripture. One which in fact downplays the power of God, and upgrades the "power" or man. Meaning the independence and self sufficiency. Here is a brief review, which made sense after I compared Bauer's definition's with Kittel's above.



Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 Volume Set): Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich: 9780802823243: Amazon.com: Books

So you are basing your theology on liberal scholarship, which really helps me understand why you have such deep and basic flaws in your approach to God, and especially salvation. (I'm really glad I read both your excerpt of Kittle and the review on Amazon, as I will never feel obligated to buy it)

So let us look closely at your twisted theology, one last time. (I am pretty much through with showing you the truth over and over in the Word, in scholarly books, and have you not read it or even try and dispute it Biblically!)

First - your definition is just wrong. it is the most minor part of the meaning of the word "dunamis" in English. It totally denies the power of God - and that it the main definition of all those 6 I posted. And "Power" NOT "ability" it also the majority of uses of the word in the New Testament, and probably in the LXX, although I confess I didn't look for those references, although they were there.But then, what do you expect from someone who reads liberal sources?

Next, you quote 1 Kings 19:11-12. It is a great verse, and it has really spoken to me in amazing ways. Why? Because it is about the way God reveals himself to us.

It is NOT and NEVER WILL BE, about us! It is not about our ability, or us speaking in the small, still voice, as KJV puts it. It is about one of the many ways GOD chooses to speak to us. That is not ability, that is God's sovereign will and choice. God can use whatever method he wants to talk to us. Sometimes that is signs and wonders, like during Jesus ministry, sometimes it is the small still voice, and sometimes it is Balaam's donkey.

So basically, what you have twisted above is the same as if you somehow posted the following to prove your point about ability.

"And the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?” And he said, “No.”31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face."Numbers 22:30-31


Is your ability found in the mouth of a donkey? Or is it God using the donkey, just as God used the metaphor of speaking to Elijah in the gentle wind. As I have said with others, when people come up with such twisting and misuse of the Word of God, it makes me no longer believer anything they write.

Oh yes, I have read a few of the works of Augustine. I also did a paper on his influence on the church with regards to theology. What you keep harping on is pure garbage. It's not that I believe Augustine, or use him as my first reference with regards to theology. But you seem to think all of us have been subtlety influenced by him, and your quotes are so out of order. Do you have a book you read that you keep finding all this questionable material??

Anyway, if you use Augustine as a rebuttal anymore, esp in the flimsy way you keep doing it, not quoting him directly, or the people that have been influenced in their theology, you are going on ignore.

You misquote the Bible to your own ends, you have a very limited understanding of anything theological, mostly based on heretical sources, not the actual Bible, and you have an agenda which is based on the weakest of arguments.

Like others, I am pretty fed up with you. I will pray that God will prick your conscience, so that you will be encouraged to read the Bible and stay away from all these questionable sources and references. And that you will understand the power of God in your heart and life, and this delusion that sanctification is all about "you" is a lie from the devil.

What a breath of fresh air you are. I just want you to know that I recognize how much time and work went into a post like that, and even if it goes right over HR's head, as it probably will, you should know it is much appreciated and has much value for those other than HR, myself included. Thank you.

*Ditto that for your post to Jaume. Great stuff!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.

Wow Angela, I am appalled at your tone and judgmental attitude. Up until this moment I have respected you. You have called what I post nonsense, without providing substance as to why. That's just the modus operandi of people here.

Please put me on ignore. I would be honored.

The minute I read this, and saw the source, I knew what the issue was. A LIBERAL view of Scripture. One which in fact downplays the power of God, and upgrades the "power" or man. Meaning the independence and self sufficiency. Here is a brief review, which made sense after I compared Bauer's definition's with Kittel's above.



Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 Volume Set): Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich: 9780802823243: Amazon.com: Books

So you are basing your theology on liberal scholarship, which really helps me understand why you have such deep and basic flaws in your approach to God, and especially salvation. (I'm really glad I read both your excerpt of Kittle and the review on Amazon, as I will never feel obligated to buy it)

So let us look closely at your twisted theology, one last time. (I am pretty much through with showing you the truth over and over in the Word, in scholarly books, and have you not read it or even try and dispute it Biblically!)

First - your definition is just wrong. it is the most minor part of the meaning of the word "dunamis" in English. It totally denies the power of God - and that it the main definition of all those 6 I posted. And "Power" NOT "ability" it also the majority of uses of the word in the New Testament, and probably in the LXX, although I confess I didn't look for those references, although they were there.But then, what do you expect from someone who reads liberal sources?

Next, you quote 1 Kings 19:11-12. It is a great verse, and it has really spoken to me in amazing ways. Why? Because it is about the way God reveals himself to us.

It is NOT and NEVER WILL BE, about us! It is not about our ability, or us speaking in the small, still voice, as KJV puts it. It is about one of the many ways GOD chooses to speak to us. That is not ability, that is God's sovereign will and choice. God can use whatever method he wants to talk to us. Sometimes that is signs and wonders, like during Jesus ministry, sometimes it is the small still voice, and sometimes it is Balaam's donkey.

So basically, what you have twisted above is the same as if you somehow posted the following to prove your point about ability.

" And the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?” And he said, “No.”31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face."Numbers 22:30-31


Is your ability found in the mouth of a donkey? Or is it God using the donkey, just as God used the metaphor of speaking to Elijah in the gentle wind. As I have said with others, when people come up with such twisting and misuse of the Word of God, it makes me no longer believer anything they write.

Oh yes, I have read a few of the works of Augustine. I also did a paper on his influence on the church with regards to theology. What you keep harping on is pure garbage. It's not that I believe Augustine, or use him as my first reference with regards to theology. But you seem to think all of us have been subtlety influenced by him, and your quotes are so out of order. Do you have a book you read that you keep finding all this questionable material??

Anyway, if you use Augustine as a rebuttal anymore, esp in the flimsy way you keep doing it, not quoting him directly, or the people that have been influenced in their theology, you are going on ignore.

You misquote the Bible to your own ends, you have a very limited understanding of anything theological, mostly based on heretical sources, not the actual Bible, and you have an agenda which is based on the weakest of arguments.

Like others, I am pretty fed up with you. I will pray that God will prick your conscience, so that you will be encouraged to read the Bible and stay away from all these questionable sources and references. And that you will understand the power of God in your heart and life, and this delusion that sanctification is all about "you" is a lie from the devil.

 

[Grace777x70]

What a breath of fresh air you are. I just want you to know that I recognize how much time and work went into a post like that, and even if it goes right over HR's head, as it probably will, you should know it is much appreciated and has much value for those other than HR, myself included. Thank you.

*Ditto that for your post to Jaume. Great stuff!

Ditto........

 

[roaringkitten]

Amen to post #505!

Couldn't have said it better myself Angela!

It's all about Him!

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen...it's more like acknowledging that we are in fact dead....but yet now alive to God....for we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3[/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6[/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Amen to post #505!

Couldn't have said it better myself Angela!

It's all about Him!

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[PeterJens]

So, you look only to the historical Jesus and not the living, risen Jesus. That explains much.

I am sorry. I am shocked. Not just a little reaction, what are you saying but shocked.

Jesus showed His love for us to die upon the cross. The creator, the Lord made man died that we might live.
It shows the living love in His heart. History echoes leading up to this point and away from it. It is the centre piece of creation. The lamb who was slain, the eternal sacrifice, brokeness made whole.

If you have never experienced this, or know it in your heart, something is missing from who you are. Yes Jesus is alive and risen, but because so many have liked your comment, I now understand you academic assention to the Lord rather than grief and hurt at what the Lord did for you and me.

One christian asked the question, why did Jesus have to die on the cross, could he not have died anywhere?
You may not be aware but the reason why the cross, why the Jews, is because these people claimed to know God with head knowledge and trying to follow Gods ways, but when tested killed God. This example should make everyone wary of where they stand and who they oppose.

 

[PeterJens]

you're starting to sound like a "gnostic" Peter, hahaha!!
it is the inside of the cup that needs to be cleaned, amen.
and no man can do that to Himself -- instead, it is God who cleans us on the inside, and who gives us a new heart, which is obedient and delights in doing God's will.
this is a change that is done to us - not by us. it is a circumcision not done with human hands, but with divine ones; a thing unseen, which we ought all to then manifest through our lives and conversation, so that it is seen by others, and God can be praised for the works He does in and through us.

in John 13, Christ washes the apostles feet - and He says that whoever has been washed is already clean, and only needs to wash their feet - it's another place where He calls them clean. it stands out to me now, in the context of this discussion, that it is Christ who washes their feet - He does not tell them, "wash your own feet or you will have no part with me!" -- but He does the washing. He says that if He does not wash them, they have no part with Him.
it is a power greater than us who washes us, our hearts, our whole bodies, and even our feet. it is a righteousness that we submit to, rather than establish

Two things strike me. Jesus washing the feet of the disciples is about service to a need of the disciple to have their feet washed was the teacher was serving the pupil. This was the example of leadership.

Now washing of your heart is something the Lord does but we are also involved with. Our thoughts are under our control. Whether we defend our feelings or open up and face what we are and what we are doing in our hearts is our will and control. What I am hearing is people ignore who they are, their reactions and histories and expect the Lord to transform them without any participation from themselves. It is like saying if you have dirty hands you leave them dirty unless the Lord washes them for you. Jesus said this,

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matt 23:25-26

Jesus's criticism of the pharisees in they were full of greed and self-indulgence. Now is it a impossible thing for people to stop dwelling on greed and desiring to indulge themselves or you need the Lord to do this. These are issues of repentance, of confession, of humbleness, yet what I am hearing is the believer cannot do this, only the Lord.

This is the problem of talking in general ideas and not specifics. Repentance is about asking the Lord to search our hearts and show us our areas of failure and need for healing. I get the feeling people now reject identifying obvious sin, just ignore it because only the positive ideas make as go to Christ. But as Jesus is talking about, clean your heart throught repentance so you can see the Lord and know His will. But it is obvious this is not the spirit of many who claim to follow Jesus.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I am sorry. I am shocked. Not just a little reaction, what are you saying but shocked.

Jesus showed His love for us to die upon the cross. The creator, the Lord made man died that we might live.
It shows the living love in His heart. History echoes leading up to this point and away from it. It is the centre piece of creation. The lamb who was slain, the eternal sacrifice, brokeness made whole.

If you have never experienced this, or know it in your heart, something is missing from who you are. Yes Jesus is alive and risen, but because so many have liked your comment, I now understand you academic assention to the Lord rather than grief and hurt at what the Lord did for you and me.

One christian asked the question, why did Jesus have to die on the cross, could he not have died anywhere?
You may not be aware but the reason why the cross, why the Jews, is because these people claimed to know God with head knowledge and trying to follow Gods ways, but when tested killed God. This example should make everyone wary of where they stand and who they oppose.

I am not at all surprised at your shock.

Jesus is risen!

 

[FreeNChrist]

.

Wow Angela, I am appalled at your tone and judgmental attitude. Up until this moment I have respected you. You have called what I post nonsense, without providing substance as to why. That's just the modus operandi of people here.

Please put me on ignore. I would be honored.

And there you have it...vvvvrrrrrooooommmmm.....right over his head.

 

[psalm6819]

I am sorry. I am shocked. Not just a little reaction, what are you saying but shocked.

Jesus showed His love for us to die upon the cross. The creator, the Lord made man died that we might live.
It shows the living love in His heart. History echoes leading up to this point and away from it. It is the centre piece of creation. The lamb who was slain, the eternal sacrifice, brokeness made whole.

If you have never experienced this, or know it in your heart, something is missing from who you are. Yes Jesus is alive and risen, but because so many have liked your comment, I now understand you academic assention to the Lord rather than grief and hurt at what the Lord did for you and me.

One christian asked the question, why did Jesus have to die on the cross, could he not have died anywhere?
You may not be aware but the reason why the cross, why the Jews, is because these people claimed to know God with head knowledge and trying to follow Gods ways, but when tested killed God. This example should make everyone wary of where they stand and who they oppose.

God chose the Jews and Jesus sacricficed Himself noone killed God (LOL killed God?????)

and you should take your own advice and be wary of the sinking sand that you stand on...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

it is the inside of the cup that needs to be cleaned, amen.
and no man can do that to Himself -- instead, it is God who cleans us on the inside, and who gives us a new heart, which is obedient and delights in doing God's will.

That's true, but man can keep from doing things that defile the cup.

Do you agree, or are you like the Christian gnostics who don't believe any behavior can defile their vessel?

 

[psalm6819]

@peterjens

Quote

"One christian asked the question, why did Jesus have to die on the cross, could he not have died anywhere?
You may not be aware but the reason why the cross, why the Jews, is because these people claimed to know God with head knowledge and trying to follow Gods ways, but when tested killed God. This example should make everyone wary of where they stand and who they oppose. This example should make everyone wary of where they stand and who they oppose. "

End quote

So, the answer to the question "why the cross instead of Jesus dying anywhere?"

One it fulfilled prophecy in Psalms

Two it breaks curses "cursed is he...."

NOT because of some flaky theory you have about Jews killing God because you think they thought they had head knowledge and tried to unsucessfully followed...blah, blah, blah

 

[Budman]

The minute I read this, and saw the source, I knew what the issue was. A LIBERAL view of Scripture. One which in fact downplays the power of God, and upgrades the "power" or man. Meaning the independence and self sufficiency. Here is a brief review, which made sense after I compared Bauer's definition's with Kittel's above.



Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 Volume Set): Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich: 9780802823243: Amazon.com: Books

So you are basing your theology on liberal scholarship, which really helps me understand why you have such deep and basic flaws in your approach to God, and especially salvation. (I'm really glad I read both your excerpt of Kittle and the review on Amazon, as I will never feel obligated to buy it)

So let us look closely at your twisted theology, one last time. (I am pretty much through with showing you the truth over and over in the Word, in scholarly books, and have you not read it or even try and dispute it Biblically!)

First - your definition is just wrong. it is the most minor part of the meaning of the word "dunamis" in English. It totally denies the power of God - and that it the main definition of all those 6 I posted. And "Power" NOT "ability" it also the majority of uses of the word in the New Testament, and probably in the LXX, although I confess I didn't look for those references, although they were there.But then, what do you expect from someone who reads liberal sources?

Next, you quote 1 Kings 19:11-12. It is a great verse, and it has really spoken to me in amazing ways. Why? Because it is about the way God reveals himself to us.

It is NOT and NEVER WILL BE, about us! It is not about our ability, or us speaking in the small, still voice, as KJV puts it. It is about one of the many ways GOD chooses to speak to us. That is not ability, that is God's sovereign will and choice. God can use whatever method he wants to talk to us. Sometimes that is signs and wonders, like during Jesus ministry, sometimes it is the small still voice, and sometimes it is Balaam's donkey.

So basically, what you have twisted above is the same as if you somehow posted the following to prove your point about ability.

"And the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?” And he said, “No.”31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face."Numbers 22:30-31


Is your ability found in the mouth of a donkey? Or is it God using the donkey, just as God used the metaphor of speaking to Elijah in the gentle wind. As I have said with others, when people come up with such twisting and misuse of the Word of God, it makes me no longer believer anything they write.

Oh yes, I have read a few of the works of Augustine. I also did a paper on his influence on the church with regards to theology. What you keep harping on is pure garbage. It's not that I believe Augustine, or use him as my first reference with regards to theology. But you seem to think all of us have been subtlety influenced by him, and your quotes are so out of order. Do you have a book you read that you keep finding all this questionable material??

Anyway, if you use Augustine as a rebuttal anymore, esp in the flimsy way you keep doing it, not quoting him directly, or the people that have been influenced in their theology, you are going on ignore.

You misquote the Bible to your own ends, you have a very limited understanding of anything theological, mostly based on heretical sources, not the actual Bible, and you have an agenda which is based on the weakest of arguments.

Like others, I am pretty fed up with you. I will pray that God will prick your conscience, so that you will be encouraged to read the Bible and stay away from all these questionable sources and references. And that you will understand the power of God in your heart and life, and this delusion that sanctification is all about "you" is a lie from the devil.

Amazing and devastating critique!

As usual, HeRose had no coherent or rational response. When he gets backed into a theological corner, he threatens to put the person who put him there on ignore.

Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the Bible, can see that HeRose's position is completely bankrupt. You are absolutely correct in your observation that it's all about "him". He seems to relish in his pride and egotism. He feels salvation is his "right" because he has earned it through his own labors.

Like a child, he cannot grasp the simple notion that if salvation is a gift initially, it must always remain as such. To add a single work to it makes it a gift no longer.

We should all take a moment to pray for this man. He is so lost in spiritual darkness, and heading for a cliff he cannot see.

 

[Budman]

are you like the Christian gnostics who don't believe any behavior can defile their vessel?

None can.

You have absolutely no idea what justification actually is. It means "as if we have never sinned". We have been made perfect forever.

If one could lose their salvation because of sin, then Jesus did not pay for all sin as the Bible teaches - but only those sins up to salvation.

God will not charge sin to a believer. Ever. The sin issue was dealt with at the cross. It's finished.

HeRose, you teach one cannot sin and still be saved. So tell me, how many times do you lose and regain your salvation in a day?

Five times? Ten? Twenty or more?

 

[PeterJens]

Nobody here is teaching against obeying Christ. So........

Unfortunately this may appear true, but actually for some is true and for other not.

If I say all Jesus said is something to take into our hearts and obey. But clarity needs to be given as to what it actually is and what it means.

Now some would disown a lot of Jesus's words to them, but directed at others. So their obedience is different.

So unfortunately your words ignore these differences.