Paster Women?

[Grace777x70]

I don't see where an elder is any different then the term pastor or bishop in the NT. I don't believe there is supposed to be one person that rules the roast in an assembly of believers. That is not a construct of the New Testament church but a man-made tradition coming from the OT.

I see elders that are plural and shepherd the flock together watching over them ( bishop ).

An elder, pastor and bishop are all the same thing - just describing a name, function and office within the local assembly.

Acts 20:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock ( what pastors do ), over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers ( what bishops do ), to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Peter 5:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] shepherd ( same word as for pastors in Eph 4:11 ) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight ( same root word for bishop ) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.

 

[KJV1611]

of the KJV Bible you mean

No, I'm pretty sure they all say the woman should remain silent in the church.

 

[KJV1611]

But you don't have the NBG and the Statenvertaling.

Hey I found one text finally for KJV1611:

Luke 2

36*Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;*37*and this woman*was a widow of about eighty-four years,*who did not depart from the temple, but served God*with fastings and prayers night and day.*38*And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem

Again, women aren't forbidden to talk, they're just not allowed to speak in church.

 

[KJV1611]

maybe you mean the KJV1611 bible - the one that omits all the verses that don't fit so conveniently with a doctrine built solely on Pauls' recommendations.

It's interesting to me that Paul said 'I do not permit' instead of saying 'God does not permit' or 'You must not permit'. As if there was some recognition that it was situational.

If you feel like Paul is just expressing his opinion, the verse below should clarify God's stance on the issue. Don't hate me because of what God said in the bible, just believe your bible.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[KJV1611]

Thanks for the references -- but regardless of Paul's wording or how many times he said it, I consider the Holy Spirit to be the ultimate authority, and we can observe the Holy Spirit making exceptions, even if it's generally a good policy for men to be in positions of leadership.

Paul was a human like any other apostle, and everyone willing to has received the same Holy Spirit as Paul did. I do not consider Paul's directions to the churches under his care, to be on the same level as commandments from Christ. I don't consider them to be meaningless either. And I don't consider a dogmatic, hard-line approach to scriptures on this, to be spirit-led or fruitful. I think you and I have made our positions clear -- but if not, my first post in this thread was several paragraphs, you're welcome to read and respond.

I have gotten a bit glib and my posts became less constructive, so I'm going to do like I said and take a break for now.

I'm glad that at least you will admit it... you don't believe the bible.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

If you feel like Paul is just expressing his opinion, the verse below should clarify God's stance on the issue. Don't hate me because of what God said in the bible, just believe your bible.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Paul to the church in Corinth.
Good thing we're not Corinthians.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I'm glad that at least you will admit it... you don't believe the bible.

Are you glad? Is this something worth your rejoicing?

 

[Budman]

I do not consider Paul's directions to the churches under his care, to be on the same level as commandments from Christ.

God, the Holy Spirit, inspired the Scriptures. Jesus is also God. So, what Paul wrote is indeed on the same level as what Christ said, because God said it through Paul.

 

[KJV1611]

Are you glad? Is this something worth your rejoicing?

I appreciate honesty. At least he admits that the bible teaches that women are to remain silent in church... he just believes the "Holy Spirit" over rules the scripture.

Edit to say: Too bad others on this thread arent as honest.

 

[coby]

Again, women aren't forbidden to talk, they're just not allowed to speak in church.

Huh? What's the difference? She prophecied to everyone about Jesus. She didn't just say: oh what a sweet baby! Or you mean that this was in the temple instead of a church?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I appreciate honesty. At least he admits that the bible teaches that women are to remain silent in church... he just believes the "Holy Spirit" over rules the scripture.

Edit to say: Too bad others on this thread arent as honest.

Does the Bible also teach that women are not to wear braids in their hair?
Do we consider context, when we study the Bible--or do we simply take every word literally?

"Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again." (Lev 24:20)

 

[coby]

Does the Bible also teach that women are not to wear braids in their hair?
Do we consider context, when we study the Bible--or do we simply take every word literally?

"Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again." (Lev 24:20)

Yup no braids and a covering. Why don't we wear coverings anymore? That's a nice can of worms to open. I'll call Baboo to make a new thread.

 

[KJV1611]

Huh? What's the difference? She prophecied to everyone about Jesus. She didn't just say: oh what a sweet baby! Or you mean that this was in the temple instead of a church?

She witnessed about salvation through Christ in a synagogue... no different than you witnessing about Christ in a church building.

 

[coby]

She witnessed about salvation through Christ in a synagogue... no different than you witnessing about Christ in a church building.

So prophesy is no problem and sharing is no problem, only teaching with authority over men. I agree then.

 

[phil112]

my mistake.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

So prophesy is no problem and sharing is no problem, only teaching with authority over men. I agree then.

What does "with authority" mean?

 

[phil112]

To avoid responding to this thread I'd have to leave CC. Hate to do that right now.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Paul got his gospel from Christ. Something a believer cannot doubt or refute.
Paul tells us that women speaking, and being obedient, as the bible tells us here also aligns, agrees with the law.
Why don't you women that are so angry, so upset, do some research and come back and tell us what the law says about it.
Then let's hear your arguments.

 

[JosephsDreams]

Thanks for the references -- but regardless of Paul's wording or how many times he said it, I consider the Holy Spirit to be the ultimate authority, and we can observe the Holy Spirit making exceptions, even if it's generally a good policy for men to be in positions of leadership.

Paul was a human like any other apostle, and everyone willing to has received the same Holy Spirit as Paul did. I do not consider Paul's directions to the churches under his care, to be on the same level as commandments from Christ. I don't consider them to be meaningless either. And I don't consider a dogmatic, hard-line approach to scriptures on this, to be spirit-led or fruitful. I think you and I have made our positions clear -- but if not, my first post in this thread was several paragraphs, you're welcome to read and respond.

I have gotten a bit glib and my posts became less constructive, so I'm going to do like I said and take a break for now.

I don't consider Paul an apostle, btw, but that is really neither here nor there. It can be reasonably debated. Some say just about any early Christian missionary was an apostle, and some say only the 12 who were with Jesus at the time of His ministry. On to the main point of this...
Paul was one of the most, if not the most, knowledgeable men of his day. It may be part of the reason, in almost definitely is part of the reason that Jesus gave him a mighty push to conversion. It is no coincidence that Paul wrote 13 of the 27 NT books. Romans is widely considered the encapsulation of the spirit of the entire NT.
God said my people perish because of lack of knowledge. We have can all personally attest to that.
I am saying all this because it is true that we have the same spirit as Paul. What sets us apart as Christians is our devotion to that spirit, and our knowledge. Some of us have salvation, some sanctification, some consecration. Or some combination of the latter two, with always the former, of course.
So it does not surprise me that we Christians may be in disagreement on this woman pastor thing. The spirit of understanding and discernment is not equal among us. Some are baby Christians, some are back sliders, some have not pursued wisdom and knowledge in a way that corresponds with their years in the Lord. Some of us do not pray enough.
Paul is speaking in the context of the situation and the times of the culture.
It is not a contradiction to propose that woman pastors are something the word validates. In fact, it is a confirmation of the spirit that dwells within us that God is a God of equality, not of domination.
I am of the firm opinion that if Paul had a spirit of equality and encouragement and humility, and if he were living here today, he would approve of woman pastors.

 

[JosephsDreams]

Phil112 and KJV1611.
KJV1611, I have specifically requested that you answer my question regarding the exegesis aspect of what Paul was saying. You essentially blew me off. You did not answer it. I forgot your exact words, but something like, 'look man, this is what the bible says.'
All I am asking both of you (and Chuck, whose personal kindness to me I publicly thank him for) is to please get into a study bible, or on your computers, and at least investigate what I am putting forth. I am not asking you all to mutiny the word of God.
I am just asking you to check it out.
I have stated the reasons I believe Paul was implying through his actions and reasoning of his intellect and prompting of the Spirit why I think Paul was implying (if one extrapolated his reasoning) woman could preach and pastor in today's society. i put it out there in a way which you can dispute it point by point. I have stated historical facts about what was going on at the time Paul wrote this that influenced his reply.
If you don't want to confirm the accuracy of what I am stating , or if you already have, then reply to me in a corresponding manner. Just saying it is Gods word is a gross display of your either a) ignorance, or b) laziness. If after you respond to me in a literary fashion and still think I am on the wrong side of the word, then fine, we will just have to disagree.
But until you do, be it you respond to me or someone else in such a way, I am telling you, (and I have not polled anyone, so while I strongly believe I am speaking for most, if not all of the other posters here, forgive me for the liberty if I am wrong) while we may respect you guys as fellow Christians (actually some of the other posters may not even give you that after some of your previous comments, but I think most will), no one, or almost no one, is going to give you any credibility until you do. I am one of these.
Maybe you have delved into it. But if you have, then why haven't you answered me directly?

 

[phil112]

I don't consider Paul an apostle, btw, but that is really neither here nor there. ..................

Seriously? Seriously????

Romans 1:1,2 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures.............................
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,...............
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,.......................
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father....................
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God......................
Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God...........................
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ........
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God........................
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

Why do you bother with the bible when Paul, whom you believe to be a liar, wrote so much of it?
Are you on some kind of illicit substance? I mean, Seriously?