Paster Women?

[Depleted]

What does "with authority" mean?

Your teachers in school had it. Your bosses have it. Your pastor has it. God has it. Authority gives the listener the ease to trust the words being said and to do what is being said. No authority. No trust. Not to say you cannot trust even without authority, but you're supposed to figure out if the words are worthy of being trusted then.

That's the authority women do NOT have over men. Listen to us all you want, but then think for yourself to decide if you believe it. Authority means that trust was earned and the people listening ought to do what is being told.

And, if you have a pastor who was an electrical engineer two years ago, (don't laugh. I had him as a pastor), then there is no authority in him either. The trust is earned by background too. Authority is earned.

Check out the Bible stories for why women don't earn it -- Eve, Lot's wife, Sarah, Delilah -- we have a gender-specific flaw. (Not saying women only have this, nor that we all do this all the time, but we do have the lineage to prove the flaw.) We have the skill sets to talk a man into anything without him even realizing he's been snookered. NOT a good trait for authority figures.

 

[Depleted]

Phil112 and KJV1611.
KJV1611, I have specifically requested that you answer my question regarding the exegesis aspect of what Paul was saying. You essentially blew me off. You did not answer it. I forgot your exact words, but something like, 'look man, this is what the bible says.'
All I am asking both of you (and Chuck, whose personal kindness to me I publicly thank him for) is to please get into a study bible, or on your computers, and at least investigate what I am putting forth. I am not asking you all to mutiny the word of God.
I am just asking you to check it out.
I have stated the reasons I believe Paul was implying through his actions and reasoning of his intellect and prompting of the Spirit why I think Paul was implying (if one extrapolated his reasoning) woman could preach and pastor in today's society. i put it out there in a way which you can dispute it point by point. I have stated historical facts about what was going on at the time Paul wrote this that influenced his reply.
If you don't want to confirm the accuracy of what I am stating , or if you already have, then reply to me in a corresponding manner. Just saying it is Gods word is a gross display of your either a) ignorance, or b) laziness. If after you respond to me in a literary fashion and still think I am on the wrong side of the word, then fine, we will just have to disagree.
But until you do, be it you respond to me or someone else in such a way, I am telling you, (and I have not polled anyone, so while I strongly believe I am speaking for most, if not all of the other posters here, forgive me for the liberty if I am wrong) while we may respect you guys as fellow Christians (actually some of the other posters may not even give you that after some of your previous comments, but I think most will), no one, or almost no one, is going to give you any credibility until you do. I am one of these.
Maybe you have delved into it. But if you have, then why haven't you answered me directly?

Just to give you a heads up, if I respond to you again. You are currently addressing two people I ignore now.

Again, if they won't listen, why talk? (That's the reason I ignore them. That is not saying you should too. Although, you might want to reconsider, if you want to, based on my question.)

 

[coby]

What does "with authority" mean?

Taking authority over people, authorative. You have to listen! Lol or Benny Hinn in Holland with the kids who just made noise and run around, because the parents thought that was normal. QUIET!!!

 

[coby]

To avoid responding to this thread I'd have to leave CC. Hate to do that right now.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Paul got his gospel from Christ. Something a believer cannot doubt or refute.
Paul tells us that women speaking, and being obedient, as the bible tells us here also aligns, agrees with the law.
Why don't you women that are so angry, so upset, do some research and come back and tell us what the law says about it.
Then let's hear your arguments.

I did that a few pages back. It's only in the Jewish oral law and Genesis or something says they have to obey their own husbands. Quiet in the Synagogue is only in Jewish oral or man made law. And I'm not angry although you don't read my posts lol.

 

[JosephsDreams]

Just to give you a heads up, if I respond to you again. You are currently addressing two people I ignore now.

Again, if they won't listen, why talk? (That's the reason I ignore them. That is not saying you should too. Although, you might want to reconsider, if you want to, based on my question.)

Lynn, at the end of the day, we are all in one camp here together, I pray and hope. Even these two guys. I try to focus on the unity, not the differences. John 17.

John 17 -
6. “I have manifested your name to the people ewhom you gave me out of the world. fYours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything fthat you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them gthe words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that hI came from you; and ithey have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. jI am not praying for the world but for those kwhom you have given me, for lthey are yours. 10 mAll mine are yours, and yours are mine, and nI am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but othey are in the world, and pI am coming to you. qHoly Father,rkeep them in your name, swhich you have given me, tthat they may be one, ueven as we are one. 12 vWhile I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have wguarded them, and xnot one of them has been lost except ythe son of destruction, zthat the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now aI am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have bmy joy fulfilled in themselves.14 cI have given them your word, and dthe world has hated themebecause they are not of the world, fjust as I am not of the world. 15 I gdo not ask that you htake them out of the world, but that you ikeep them from jthe evil one.1 16 kThey are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 lSanctify them2 in the truth; myour word is truth. 18 nAs you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And ofor their sake pI consecrate myself,3 that they also qmay be sanctified4 in truth."

I am hoping that Phil and KJV will take this opportunity to clarify themselves in an academic manner, so at least they can regain some respect of their fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. What should have been a friendly, scholarly discussion devolved into something not appropriate for this site.
The thread was funny, and I had some laughs, but the underpinning was not sightly.
These two brothers have a chance to either redeem themselves (if they agree or disagree does not really matter, it is the spirit they do it in) or put the last knot in the noose.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They can preach the word of God. They are just not allowed to teach doctrine from the pulpit and have authority/responsibility over men and a flock.

Why? Because men will listen to the voice of women and choose woman over God and truth. Men have a weakness towards women. We go into 'protection mode' even if we know they are wrong.

Adam was truly not deceived, in any area. He knew exactly what he was doing and willingly choose to listen to the voice of his wife who was deceived.

12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

New American Standard Bible
Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

It is an indictment on men that women can't have authority/responsibility over a man or a flock. Men are shirking their responsibility to teach and we will protect the woman even if we know they are wrong.

Men will choose woman over God and truth.

In what part of this has Christ come and done anything new?
If we are still under those curses from that day, how are we free indeed?

 

[JosephsDreams]

It is a new covenant.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Liberal Theology always leans towards ordaining women as well as homosexuals and other forbidden groups.
Liberalism is an arch enemy of God's Word ...always questioning it, doubting it, making ungodly allowances...etc.

This is a bit ridiculous. There are valid verses and questions concerning women, such as, no more free and slave, no more male and female - and how there seems to be a commanding that goes against this, and all out of the same horses mouth! This is a valid searching and questioning, asking and seeking to comprehend this.

To lump it in with something that has no valid verses or no verses that bring up the questions is not the same thing.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No one is talking about women burying their gifts.
The issue is can a woman be a pastor thus having authority over a man.
Scripture is crystal clear on this as laid out in the letters of Paul to Timothy and Titus.

Maybe that is not the real question. Maybe the real question is brought up by Yet in many threads, though you don't like the WAY he says or asks the question...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I know the scriptures say that a women cannot be in authority over a man but it doesn't seem right something seems to be missing. I know father he is not sexist and doesn't play favorites he will use whoever he sees fit for whatever he sees fit and knowing his nature I can't buy this whole sexist thing.

true enough it does make the scriptures seem like that is how he feels but even so something doesn't sit right with me on this.
But as for authority wise I wouldn't say that a pastor is in a state of authority, a church to me is like family and everyone plays their part in it and is just as important as the next. If anyone is in authority within a church it's God not the pastor or anyone else, i think that the pastor is a teacher but I don't think that a pastor alone can run a church they need the rest of the family.

If God ever wanted me to build a church it would work like a family not an organized group, there wouldn't be sense of authority or anyone being above anyone else but everyone would have different jobs.

There is a lot of biblical agreement with the way you say you would run a church.

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, at the end of the day, we are all in one camp here together, I pray and hope. Even these two guys. I try to focus on the unity, not the differences. John 17.

John 17 -
6. “I have manifested your name to the people ewhom you gave me out of the world. fYours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.7 Now they know that everything fthat you have given me is from you.8 For I have given them gthe words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that hI came from you; and ithey have believed that you sent me.9 I am praying for them. jI am not praying for the world but for those kwhom you have given me, for lthey are yours.10 mAll mine are yours, and yours are mine, and nI am glorified in them.11 And I am no longer in the world, but othey are in the world, and pI am coming to you. qHoly Father,rkeep them in your name, swhich you have given me, tthat they may be one, ueven as we are one.12 vWhile I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have wguarded them, and xnot one of them has been lost except ythe son of destruction, zthat the Scripture might be fulfilled.13 But now aI am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have bmy joy fulfilled in themselves.14 cI have given them your word, and dthe world has hated themebecause they are not of the world, fjust as I am not of the world.15 I gdo not ask that you htake them out of the world, but that you ikeep them from jthe evil one.116 kThey are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.17 lSanctify them2 in the truth; myour word is truth.18 nAs you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.19 And ofor their sake pI consecrate myself,3 that they also qmay be sanctified4 in truth."

I am hoping that Phil and KJV will take this opportunity to clarify themselves in an academic manner, so at least they can regain some respect of their fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. What should have been a friendly, scholarly discussion devolved into something not appropriate for this site.
The thread was funny, and I had some laughs, but the underpinning was not sightly.
These two brothers have a chance to either redeem themselves (if they agree or disagree does not really matter, it is the spirit they do it in) or put the last knot in the noose.

That's my problem. I don't think either of them are in our camp, nor are they interested in this camp. They do worship someone, but it's not God. There is no unity with those outside of the camp, otherwise, why have camp?

Just because someone spends time on here doesn't automatically make him/her a believer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If I was to be a pastor I would want to be the kind that makes a spark in people, I would speak from my heart if I worry about what to teach and how to do it then the passion will begin to fade ppl will go to church but how can one make that spark and ignite the Fire if you don't speak from your heart?

That spark would be...the Holy Spirit - and relying on Him, not on a planned saving program you were taught.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I guess as of now I don't have the understanding to be able to read such scriptures. the scriptures say women cannot have authority over men but even so why does something inside me keep telling me this is wrong?
Is just because I grew up seeing women just as good as men? or is the holy spirit trying to tell me something?

I think you are on to something here!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So, we're back to the organized church situation again, huh? Things that are seen. Credibility and self-identification and who submits to whom according to man's understanding. Religious doctrines and laws and cares of this life and churchy taboos formulated in man's mind. *sigh*

Praise God for the liberty we have in Jesus Christ!

We walk by faith and not by sight.

In the world, but not of it. \/ YAY!!!

Yes, straight back to The Law of Paul. Can't do without our laws can we? That whole freedom thing is just too scary.

 

[Depleted]

I think you are on to something here!

Only because you agree with him. Not a good strategy for figuring out what scripture really says.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

as a serious response to this.... I don't know for sure.

I was raised to believe that women were not to be "preachers", as in, pulpit type, over groups/churches...

Of course, there was Priscilla, who taught on an individual basis with her husband, which Paul was apparently ok with.

I'm getting to the point (slowly) that we as Christians have set up many of the teachings of Jesus and Paul as our own "new" Law, just like the Old Law. We worry about nit-picky details, and whether we are following what was taught us "exactly".

I'm not sure that was God's intention. We are under grace, not law. We are to be in the process of "becoming" more IN Jesus. Is it that important what the gender is of the person that helps others in their process of becoming?

Like I said, I don't know, at this point... my understanding is evolving, hopefully growing, and I'm still working on it in my mind.

Are we to be Christian "literalists" or "legalists"... or are we to be more in Christ?

Bravo, hornet guy.

 

[JosephsDreams]

That's my problem. I don't think either of them are in our camp, nor are they interested in this camp. They do worship someone, but it's not God. There is no unity with those outside of the camp, otherwise, why have camp?

Just because someone spends time on here doesn't automatically make him/her a believer.

I hope your wrong. Maybe I am being naive.
I see no reply from them in a while. Maybe they are actually looking into it?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My, my, my..... here we go again, the woman can't usurp authority over the man blah,blah,blah,blah.

WHERE in scripture does it say that a MAN CAN? Lemme guess..... didn't look that one up, did you?

Matthew 20:25-28 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; [SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 9:33-35 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? [SUP]34 [/SUP]But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:42-45 (KJV)
[SUP]42 [/SUP]But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. [SUP]43 [/SUP]But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: [SUP]44 [/SUP]And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. [SUP]45 [/SUP]For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luke 17:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? [SUP]8 [/SUP]And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? [SUP]9 [/SUP]Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. [SUP]10 [/SUP]So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

John 13:12-17 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Haven't you read the parables of Jesus? Do you know how many of them (most) talk about servants?

It sickens me when men step on women to elevate themselves. Don't you know that when you lower them below yourselves, you lower Christ?

Tell me..... whose soapbox are you standing on..... the RCC's, or the Church of England, whose Bishop planted heresy in the KJV 1611 about offices & religious authority in the first place?

And another bravo.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Forget the New Covenant, forget Jesus--let's just go revert back to the Old Law.

 

[coby]

There needs to be authority in the church, not as in the world, but someone had to kick the man out who lived with his dad's mother and a woman can't do that imo.