Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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it's kind of odd to see you make this accusation so soon after you hear from someone who says they are perpetually repenting. these "grace believers" you keep talking about -- why don't you take some evidence from the people in this thread who are talking to you, instead of whatever source you are getting your data on them from? we are real people, you know, and i don't think any of us have said we are completely disinterested in forgiveness, or separating ourselves from sin. it's a long thread, and i haven't read all of it -- maybe i missed something? but i do seem to recall several people professing exactly the opposite of what you say they believe.
does it not matter to you what any of us say? are you going to put words in our mouths anyway?
or are you not even talking about us?
wait -- are you talking about Donald Trump? that's it, isn't it! this is all about Donald Trump! he's the only person i have ever heard claim to be a Christian and also claim that he has no need for forgiveness, no need for a relationship with Christ, and doesn't appear to be interested at all in abstaining from sin.
ha! all this time we thought you were talking about us, when all along you were just calling Trump a gnostic!
funny how misunderstandings can get so big
mods, please move this thread to the news forum; it turns out that it's all about Donald Trump. thanks!
gb9 - we are not proving salvation can be lost, we are discussing what salvation and walking with the Lord actually is.
You hold all sin is forgiven for everyone. This means your view of sin, prayer, confession, preaching, encouragement etc are different to mine.
It also makes a difference in terms of how you lead people to the Lord, and what our relationship with the Lord actually is.
Now ofcourse it also strikes me you do not like talking about alternatives views of future sin forgiven, because for you that is heresy. But then to substantiate your position you actually have to address these questions or else you are just a biased believer who is not walking in the light and reaching out to others with a cogent argument.
To date all I can see is reasons why you are wrong, like the Lords prayer, "Forgive us our sins and we forgive those who sin against us" does not sound like a stopping of sinning, need of forgiveness or continued humbleness.
Now the argument this is just for the Jews does not wash as it was written down AD70+ after the sacking of Jerusalem, when they realised the Lord was not returning immediately and they needed to record Jesus's words for future generations of christians.
You hold all sin is forgiven for everyone. This means your view of sin, prayer, confession, preaching, encouragement etc are different to mine.
It also makes a difference in terms of how you lead people to the Lord, and what our relationship with the Lord actually is.
Now ofcourse it also strikes me you do not like talking about alternatives views of future sin forgiven, because for you that is heresy. But then to substantiate your position you actually have to address these questions or else you are just a biased believer who is not walking in the light and reaching out to others with a cogent argument.
To date all I can see is reasons why you are wrong, like the Lords prayer, "Forgive us our sins and we forgive those who sin against us" does not sound like a stopping of sinning, need of forgiveness or continued humbleness.
Now the argument this is just for the Jews does not wash as it was written down AD70+ after the sacking of Jerusalem, when they realised the Lord was not returning immediately and they needed to record Jesus's words for future generations of christians.
Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "...these people were not believers...( Jesus never said " I used to know you once...He said I NEVER knew you at all...).
Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
when have I ever said that I believe that all sin is forgiven for everyone without confession or repentance?? where?? you sir need to stop telling lies, making assumptions, and tell others what they believe. this is sinful behavior. you are wrong to do so.
if you cannot provide a specific example of me or anyone saying such things, then stop saying that we do.
if you cannot provide a specific example of me or anyone saying such things, then stop saying that we do.
G
I believe it.
And it is going to be said to the people who have faith like the one you preach today.
You may be saved and believed in Christ alone at some point.
But what you teach today. This what they are going to hear if they never fully and completely trusted in Christ..........
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
And it is going to be said to the people who have faith like the one you preach today.
You may be saved and believed in Christ alone at some point.
But what you teach today. This what they are going to hear if they never fully and completely trusted in Christ..........
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
not understanding this fact of the gospel sure would cause some serious problems for ones theology!
i don't know how anyone can miss that we have died in Christ. it is because of this very thing, having been crucified with Him, that we know we will also be raised with Him! how many times is it said in the NT that we have died with Him? that we are dead to sin, and alive to Christ? "what, know ye not that you who were immersed into Christ were also immersed into His death?"
we are dead, and for this we have great thanksgiving, because the law of sin and death no longer has any power over us, and we are free indeed!
i am dead, and grateful!
i don't know how anyone can miss that we have died in Christ. it is because of this very thing, having been crucified with Him, that we know we will also be raised with Him! how many times is it said in the NT that we have died with Him? that we are dead to sin, and alive to Christ? "what, know ye not that you who were immersed into Christ were also immersed into His death?"
we are dead, and for this we have great thanksgiving, because the law of sin and death no longer has any power over us, and we are free indeed!
i am dead, and grateful!
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The love relationship started with Him to us first, for God is Love, and He came to love sinners. God is also Just, so what ever God decides to do is love and justice both. Judgement the Word tells us comes after life Sin has been gabled not us we have only been enabled and gifted with life. Judgement comes after life. "And in as much as it is appointed unto men (who appointed this? God! ) once to die, and after this (cometh) Judgement." (Hebrews 9:27.)
We will be judged not at regeneration. God does say He weighs the hearts of man and is always supplying His correction and Rebuke toward loves end but Judgement comes at the end of our walk on this earth which we all will face. and what He will judge us by is what we did and did not do with His free and more than conquering provisions which gives us complete victory, if we but remain in Christ.
God will never let us yoyo His victory under our control. We do not use Jesus we must adopt Jesus' deity.
We will be judged not at regeneration. God does say He weighs the hearts of man and is always supplying His correction and Rebuke toward loves end but Judgement comes at the end of our walk on this earth which we all will face. and what He will judge us by is what we did and did not do with His free and more than conquering provisions which gives us complete victory, if we but remain in Christ.
God will never let us yoyo His victory under our control. We do not use Jesus we must adopt Jesus' deity.
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Well said....we need to "know" that we have died with Christ like Romans 6:6 says...as well as Gal 2:20..
It's in this not knowing that we were crucified with Christ that causes the natural mind to not understand the new creation in Christ - the inner man created in righteousness and holiness. This is where all this gnostic foolishness stems from - not understanding the new birth and the new man in Christ....and not understanding the circumcision of the heart and flesh - the circumcision of Christ.
It's in this not knowing that we were crucified with Christ that causes the natural mind to not understand the new creation in Christ - the inner man created in righteousness and holiness. This is where all this gnostic foolishness stems from - not understanding the new birth and the new man in Christ....and not understanding the circumcision of the heart and flesh - the circumcision of Christ.
If I remember right, you said all sin for everyone was forgiven after the cross.
Certainly Ben and Grace7x77 took this position.
A long discussion ensued about how this would work when future sin is forgiven as the believer sins.
Now if you do not hold to this and I got the wrong person, it is my memory, and I am glad to hear this is not your position.
It can sometimes take a lot of effort to keep track of where people are.
I am not lying, but if you want to think that is how I operate I am disappointed. But hey, truth does not matter much to many it seems. And telling me off for things people say they have believed equally does not help. Or maybe communication is not something you think as christians we should participate in?
Certainly Ben and Grace7x77 took this position.
A long discussion ensued about how this would work when future sin is forgiven as the believer sins.
Now if you do not hold to this and I got the wrong person, it is my memory, and I am glad to hear this is not your position.
It can sometimes take a lot of effort to keep track of where people are.
I am not lying, but if you want to think that is how I operate I am disappointed. But hey, truth does not matter much to many it seems. And telling me off for things people say they have believed equally does not help. Or maybe communication is not something you think as christians we should participate in?
Exactly! Slander spreading something false about another person. But in no place have you said who the person is, but instead engaged in drive by shootings of everyone. Technically, you, Peter, have slandered every single person in this forum, because you refuse to stop these drive by attacks against "they."
"They"
Who are "they"? You use the third person plural in one form or another NINETEEN times in your OP.
So are you talking imaginary, or hypothetical people? I doubt it very much. You know exactly who you were thinking of, and probably most people have probably figured it out too.
So you have committed an even worse sin that slander- you have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner, without naming the people. Then putting words in their mouths.
You need to clarify who "they" are with actual quotes from the offenders. Otherwise your OP is unsubstantiated rumour and innuendo. Which the OP is. Because you have offered not one honest quote from a single real person.
It really is tiring that you keep on doing this. Putting words in the mouths of people who do not exist. Or they exist in your own mind, but not in reality. Or they really do exist, but "they" have not said a single thing that you have accused them of saying.
I think you really need to apologize to this forum for starting this thread, and then repent of your sins. God will forgive you, you know. But you do need to repent and stop doing it.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9
I think this is the only thread I ever remember since I came here that was totally slanderous rumour and innuendo. So I will not be posting anymore.
Perhaps someone will post a thread citing real examples of what real people have said, and how it relates to Scripture.
"The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool." Prov. 10:18
"So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander." 1 Peter 2:1
"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge." James 4:11
"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." 2 Tim. 3:1-5
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