Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

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Wonderful! I see I have some things to consider ... I appreciate the thoughts and efforts to clarify for me. :)

I'll go back through them all now more carefully. :)
 
thepsalmist said:
Let's try this again :)

Can anyone share with me what they think Peter is saying here ... Honestly it confuses me.

2Peter
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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Let me take an analogy, which, although not perfect, may help you to understand. Suppose a man who is wealthy and kind picks out a poor lad, who would never otherwise have had the chance, and offers him the privilege of a University education. The benefactor is giving the lad something which he could never have achieved for himself; but the lad cannot make use of that privilege unless he is prepared to work, and the harder he works the more he will enter into the privilege offered to him. The gracious free offer and the personal hard work have to combine before the privilege becomes fully effective.

It is so with us and God. God has called us in His free mercy and in His unmerited grace; but at the same time we have to bend every effort to toil upwards and onwards on the way. If we follow this upward way, Peter says, we shall, in the end, be richly gifted with the right of entry into His eternal Kingdom; and we shall not slip upon the way. By this Peter does not mean that we will never make a mistake / sin. The picture in his mind is of a march and he means that we will never fall out upon the march and be left behind. If we set out upon this upward and onward way, the effort will be great but God's help will also greatly prevail us; and in spite of all the toil, He will enable us to keep going until we reach our journey's end.
 
thepsalmist said:
Wonderful! I see I have some things to consider ... I appreciate the thoughts and efforts to clarify for me. :)

I'll go back through them all now more carefully. :)
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This is me, often. However, you showed me, here, what I have been lacking--communicating these details. Thank you.
-PW
 
Gr8grace said:
So basically we can lose salvation? That is how I read it.
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Yes, but only by choosing deliberately. For God has succored it and offered sanctuary back to it, but by choice we can certainly return to the slavery of Sin, by way of choosing to step aside from Christ. This is what Scripture says.
 
PeacefulWarrior said:
If one could lose it, did they ever have it?
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If one is born-again. They can't lose it. they can lose tons and tons of rewards, but they can't lose the gift of eternal life.

The sin issue is a smokescreen to cover the main deception............religion and doing human good.

Look, we have very very few psycho wacko killers in the world in relation to the millions and millions who are trying to do "good" and be good enough..........that is satans ace trump.

Satan is vitally interested in mankind to clean-up their act independently from God. All the sin we see in the world is satans inability to control our sin nature and freewill.
 
slave said:
Yes, but only by choosing deliberately. For God has succored it and offered sanctuary back to it, but by choice we can certainly return to the slavery of Sin, by way of choosing to step aside from Christ. This is what Scripture says.
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so why did God make a mistake and save someone he knew would walk away
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
If you quit your job because you believed that you won the lottery, but you really didn't, does it matter?
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they still never won the lottery, they thought the did..

just like they never had salvation, even if they thought they did
 
PeacefulWarrior said:
If one could lose it, did they ever have it?
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If I gave you a quarter and you dropped it along the way to the store, were you not in possession of it? and did you not, yet, lose it? God helps us even keep the quarter, in this analogy, but we can never forget the power of man's will to be able to serve whomever he chooses; That if a man wants he can slam (not the the quarter to the ground) but slam Jesus Himself denying Him the right to secure the quarter to our person.. To that end God and Jesus are powerless to help, for by way of the power of our will we have a love relationship with God (empowered by Jesus Christ on the Cross and resurrection ) or we do not.
 
slave said:
If I gave you a quarter and you dropped it along the way to the store, were you not in possession of it? and did you not, yet, lose it? God helps us even keep the quarter, in this analogy, but we can never forget the power of man's will to be able to serve whomever he chooses; That if a man wants he can slam (not the the quarter to the ground) but slam Jesus Himself denying Him the right to secure the quarter to our person.. To that end God and Jesus are powerless to help, for by way of the power of our will we have a love relationship with God (empowered by Jesus Christ on the Cross and resurrection ) or we do not.
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He could but why would he?

WHy would he go from faith, in someone who never let him down, To rejection, and back to where he came from.

Thats like saying a man can go from being homeless, to having a fine home, and back to being homeless again.

if a man did that, did he really think he needed a home to begin with? or trust the one giving him the home? and did he really know how bad being homeless was to begin with,
 
Eternally-Grateful & PeterJens,

I apologise for any sins I have committed against you. Though they still be foreign to me, I mean no one harm.

I interrupted what looked like a bickering match, rather abruptly and quite bluntly.

Forgive me if this has caused you unnecessary pain.

I believe there is one God, and Christ is God in flesh, neither is God alone and the Holy Spirit guides us now. These three, together, are God and we call this understanding (or doctrine) the Trinity.

Sincerely,
PW

Sincerely
 
eternally-gratefull said:
they still never won the lottery, they thought the did..

just like they never had salvation, even if they thought they did
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just makes me wonder why so many are so hell-bent on proving " salvation loss" when one thinking that they are saved, but never really were ends in the same place: with Christ saying " I never knew you".
 
A small point. When I was talking about points made to me in general, I have not pointed out individuals, just a general sense of issues that strike me as contradictatory. Now if the points are right in themselves, they are just an observation.

If you find yourself in this position, it is just stating what your problem is, it is not slandering you, which is why you react so strongly. I could also be wrong, but that is why depersonalising helps.

In reality the issues we are discussing are actually important. What colours them is our personality and way of handling life. I do not mean to upset, just state why I do not accept what is being said against me. It does not help to just make personal attacks and not address the issues, which are actually of interest.
 
Gr8grace said:
So basically we can lose salvation? That is how I read it.
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The real question is, do you believe that Jesus meant what he said?

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

Let me rephrase it for you - Not everyone who worships the Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of GOD.

And I have as my witness:

‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me, and they worship me in vain, teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.’*” Matthew 15:8-9​
 
Gr8grace said:
If one is born-again. They can't lose it. they can lose tons and tons of rewards, but they can't lose the gift of eternal life.

The sin issue is a smokescreen to cover the main deception............religion and doing human good.

Look, we have very very few psycho wacko killers in the world in relation to the millions and millions who are trying to do "good" and be good enough..........that is satans ace trump.

Satan is vitally interested in mankind to clean-up their act independently from God. All the sin we see in the world is satans inability to control our sin nature and freewill.
Click to expand...

Amen...

Satan's ministers come as messengers of righteousness....they do not come and say "Don't sin..."..they come and say " You have to do things to keep your salvation"..

in other words..it's their own self-righteousness and not depending only on Christ's righteousness...these ones that have a D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness mindsets hare not living under grace..they have fallen from grace..

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ( notice it is "their" works )

Galatians 5:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law ( the law is self-effort ..doing your own self-righteousness/holiness ); you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The above is the difference between grace believers and works-based mindsets.

If we were relying completely on Jesus and in His finished work the above scriptures and truths would not bother us.

 
eternally-gratefull said:

so why did God make a mistake and save someone he knew would walk away
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God doesn't make mistakes man does. God gave all of Himself thru Christ to make a way to Himself in a loving relationship; as a family member, a child of Himself which was started from Him making us, and reconciled thru the last Adam in Jesus Christ, and He doesn't let His omniscience stand in His loving faithfulness ways. Nothing can dissolve us from that connection now for we have been placed along with Jesus Christ at the right hand of Himself in an inheritance no one can touch save one; us and our will. God loves us so much He even gives us provisions back to the fold if we do faultier, by way of forgiveness, yet Sin cannot enter without Christ covering our sins. Thus we must be crucified in Christ and live not as I but as Christ or Sin by way of Christ asking us to venture onward into Himself and us saying NO to His love separates us from Himself and thus sin works in us to begin the death sentence all over again. Why do you think Satan works so hard to influence you?
 
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slave said:
If I gave you a quarter and you dropped it along the way to the store, were you not in possession of it? and did you not, yet, lose it? God helps us even keep the quarter, in this analogy, but we can never forget the power of man's will to be able to serve whomever he chooses; That if a man wants he can slam (not the the quarter to the ground) but slam Jesus Himself denying Him the right to secure the quarter to our person.. To that end God and Jesus are powerless to help, for by way of the power of our will we have a love relationship with God (empowered by Jesus Christ on the Cross and resurrection ) or we do not.
Click to expand...

The love relationship comes after salvation.

It was not His Love that saved us, His love sent His Son. If was His justice that saved us. The Gavel was slammed down the moment we believed. And there is no double jeopardy with a perfect judge who has justified us.........through righteousness and justice.


We have a Just Judge that declared us justified. He doesn't go back on his judgement's.


That lost quarter..................the judge is going to bring it back to us.......even if it is in our physical death.
 
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